The Instigator
Scottymartin
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Geogeer
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

The God Trinity is a Fallacy

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Geogeer
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 631 times Debate No: 48205
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (2)
Votes (3)

 

Scottymartin

Pro

1. The Absolute Creator(God) can not have a relative existance(god in human form)
2. God can not be composed of parts(god, Jesus, and Holy Spirit)
3. The belief that because Jesus did not have a human father, therefore he
Must be the divine son of the creator. Adam has more right to claim god as
Father because he was the first human.
4. Biblical record is not a preserved historical text and therefore
Can not be proven as an absolute authority claiming the divinity of Jesus
5. The Quran, a historically preserved linguistic miracle of divine speech
That categorically rejects partners with god(ie trinity) and entitles Jesus as the messiah
and prophet of god
Geogeer

Con

I thank my opponent for the interesting debate topic. My opponent is approaching this topic as a Christianity vs. Islam concept of God. While he obviously holds the Burden of Proof for this debate, I wil attempt not only to show that his assertion about the Trinitarian nature of God is wrong, but also that the Muslim understanding of God is wrong.

I will begin with one assumption that the two of us can agree upon. God is all powerful.

Refutation of Arguments

1. The Absolute Creator(God) can not have a relative existance(god in human form)

This is an unsupported statement. The Christian concept of God is that he is not bound by time and space and that he sees all and interacts with all of history in the present. Thus God did not have relative existence when he appeared to Moses as a burning bush. Given that God is all powerful, should he choose to unite himself with mankind that is his perogative.


2. God can not be composed of parts(god, Jesus, and Holy Spirit)

First of all Christians use Father, Son and Holy Spirit - more on that later. Additionally, Christians do not believe that God has 3 parts. They believe that there is one God in three persons. The three persons are distinct yet are one substance, essence or nature. [1]

As God is the only one to exhibit this state of being it is impossible to compare it to any of his creation who do not share this nature. St. Patrick used the three leaf clover to explain it to the Irish. There were three leaves to the shamrock, and yet none of the leaves were more the shamrock than the other. While as I said this is imperfect it begins to show what Christians mean.

Christianity states that the nature of God is a Mystery in that we cannot fully comprehend it. A dog will never understand a TV, he can however watch it. His inability to ever understand it doesn't mean it does not exist.

Additionally the Qur'ân would agree that God is incomprehensible:

And (whereas He comprehends everything) He is Incomprehensible. He has full knowledge of every thing. (57:1-3) [2]


3. The belief that because Jesus did not have a human father, therefore he must be the divine son of the creator. Adam has more right to claim god as Father because he was the first human.

Once again Pro misinterprets Christian teaching.

Genesis 3:15 - I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David.

The messiah was to come by virging birth, but the Jews did not expect the messiah to be God, but to be a man. It was that Jesus claimed to be God and backed it up with miracles

John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Here Jesus gives himself the name of God - I am.


4. Biblical record is not a preserved historical text and therefore can not be proven as an absolute authority claiming the divinity of Jesus.

Neither is the Qur'ân. There exist no copies of the originals. In fact the oldest fragments are at best 150 years after the time of Muhammed [3].

Once again we both agree that God is all powerful. If he desires the bible to remain accurate then it will remain accurate - regardless of human events. Or do you deny the power of God?


5. The Quran, a historically preserved linguistic miracle of divine speech that categorically rejects partners with god(ie trinity) and entitles Jesus as the messiah and prophet of god.

And yet Muhammed performed no miracles to show that his writings were divine speech.

“Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them. (Luke 7:22)

Jesus basically said believe me because I have shown that I have the Authority. Muhammed never showed any such authority and thus does not have to be respected as having direct access to divine speech.


Counter Argument

The true basis of the argument is that Islam believes us to be slaves of God, and Christianity believes us to be children of God. In Islam God is our Master, and in Christianity God is our Father.

I argue that the Christian notion of God is not only true, but is also demostratably more logical. What is the meaning of Life? To love. That is all.

God did this John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Matthew 22:37-40 - Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment... ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And we must love our enemies.

"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you...If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same."

Whom does Allah love?

Allah love the Good, the pure and clean, those who are righteous, those who love him, those who trust him, etc...[4]

However, he does not seem to show love for his enemies.

Is Allah incapable of showing the love that his creations are capable of?

Philosophy rightly states that you cannot give what you do not have. None of the 100 attributes of Allah is Love. [5] In the Trhinity there is constant love between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Before Allah created everything whom did he love? How do you have love if there is nobody to love?

Thus we can clearly see that the concept of the Trinity is not only logical, but actually necessary for a God who loves.


[1] http://tinyurl.com...
[2] http://tinyurl.com...
[3] http://tinyurl.com...
[4] http://tinyurl.com...
[5] http://tinyurl.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Scottymartin

Pro

Scottymartin forfeited this round.
Geogeer

Con

*Sigh*

That's too bad I was interested in where this debate would go.

I believe that I have refuted my opponent's arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Geogeer 2 years ago
Geogeer
I've never done a debate about this, but I'll take a shot.
Posted by TheContendr 2 years ago
TheContendr
I will be checking in on this debate, seems to be interesting. I would join if I was defending the oneness aspect tho'.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Krazzy_Player 2 years ago
Krazzy_Player
ScottymartinGeogeerTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Actionsspeak 2 years ago
Actionsspeak
ScottymartinGeogeerTied
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Vote Placed by TheAntidoter 2 years ago
TheAntidoter
ScottymartinGeogeerTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: FF