The Instigator
shatteredseren
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
ViceRegent
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points

The God of the Old Testament is Evil.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
shatteredseren
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/29/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 560 times Debate No: 87192
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (3)

 

shatteredseren

Pro

First round will be acceptance. Second round will be Contentions. Third will be five cross-examination questions. Fourth will be responses to questions. Fifth will be closing arguments. Burden of proof is on me.
Thank you to whoever accepts my challenge, and I look forward to the debate!
ViceRegent

Con

In meeting your burden of proof, prove that your understanding of "evil" is both objective, non-arbitrary and reflective of reality. Then prove it binds God. Thanks.
Debate Round No. 1
shatteredseren

Pro

While Jesus spoke of a god of love and mercy, the Old Testament depiction of Yahweh is very different. This can be seen through the extreme measures taken by God to enforce his will and his law. By modern standards, Yahweh of the Old Testament is a monster. Below are just a few of the atrocities he has committed.
1. God drowns the whole earth. In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children. Apparently humanity had become so sinful that God killed them all, except one family, without any kind of warning.
2. God kills half a million people.
In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.
3. God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn.
In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.
4. God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them.
In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.
5. Genocide after genocide after genocide. In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing "men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites " men, women, children, infants, and their cattle " for something the Amalekites" ancestors had done 400 years earlier.
6. God kills 50,000 people for curiosity.
In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. (Newer cosmetic translations count only 70 deaths, but their text notes admit that the best and earliest manuscripts put the number at 50,070.)
7. 3,000 Israelites killed for inventing a god.
In Exodus 32, Moses has climbed Mount Sinai to get the Ten Commandments. The Israelites are bored, so they invent a golden calf god. Moses comes back and God commands him: "Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor." About 3,000 people died.
8. The Amorites destroyed by sword and by God"s rocks.
In Joshua 10:10-11, God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes them off with rocks from the sky.
9. God burns two cities to death.
In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot"s wife for looking back at her burning home.
10. God has 42 children mauled by bears.
In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. (Newer cosmetic translations say the bears "maul" the children, but the original Hebrew, baqa, means "to tear apart.")
11. A tribe slaughtered and their virgins raped for not showing up at roll call.
In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves.
12. 3,000 crushed to death.
In Judges 16:27-30, God gives Samson strength to bring down a building to crush 3,000 members of a rival tribe.
13. A concubine raped and dismembered.
In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master"s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country.
14. Child sacrifice.
In Judges 11:30-39, Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God"s favor in killing the Ammonites.
15. God helps Samson kill 30 men because he lost a bet.
In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt.
16. God demands you kill your wife and children for worshiping other gods.
In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods.
17. God incinerates 51 men to make a point.
In 2 Kings 1:9-10, Elijah gets God to burn 51 men with fire from heaven to prove he is God.
18. God kills a man for not impregnating his brother"s widow.
In Genesis 38:9-10, God kills a man for refusing to impregnate his brother"s widow.
19. God threatens forced cannibalism.
In Leviticus 26:27-29 and Jeremiah 19:9, God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children.
20. The coming slaughter.
According to Revelation 9:7-19, God"s got more evil coming. God will make horse-like locusts with human heads and scorpion tails, who torture people for 5 months. Then some angels will kill a third of the earth"s population. If he came today, that would be 2 billion people.

All of the above quoted from http://commonsenseatheism.com...

Through any sane moral standards, we can see that the above actions are not the actions of a loving, benevolent deity, but of a tyrannical god who appears to take delight in the suffering of humanity. If a human had the power to commit these atrocities, he or she would become a Hitlerian figure, no an object of praise and worship. While it is true morality is an inherently relative concept, no vision of morality including the words love, tolerance, and forgiveness would be created by a being that not only advocates genocide, but uses his omnipotent power to commit it himself. For these reasons we can very clearly see that Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, is evil.
ViceRegent

Con

You don't like God's actions of judgment. I got it. But you have yet to prove God is evil and did not even pretend to answer my Qs. Stop parroting others. It just shows you are a mindless loser.
Debate Round No. 2
shatteredseren

Pro

As per agreed upon structure, I will ask a series of five cross-examination questions.
1) You mention in your opening argument that I am apparently "mindless." Given that I have a full-scale IQ of 162, do you still believe I am mindless?
2) You contend that I "did not even pretend to answer [your] Qs." For clarification, what particular questions have you asked so far?
3) Given that, by most moral standards, God's actions appear to be incredibly harsh and downright malevolent, such as demanding the destruction of an entire race because nearly half a millennium prior their ancestors transgressed against a God they had never agreed to follow anyway, is Yahweh a benevolent deity or a malevolent being?
4) Do you believe that the "actions of judgement" Yahweh took in the Old Testament were justified?
5) Were those actions moral or immoral?
I thank my opponent for his timely and well-thought response, and I look forward to seeing his cross-examination questions. For clarification, responses to cross examination will be Round Three.
ViceRegent

Con

1. Yes.
2. In meeting your burden of proof, prove that your understanding of "evil" is both objective, non-arbitrary and reflective of reality. Then prove it binds God. Thanks.
3. I deny the premise of your question.
4. What I believe is not relevant.
5. Moral.

My turn:

1. Is "evil" an objective or subject notion?
2. How does evil, a non-material concept, exist in the world of atheistic materialism?
3. Is a judge evil for holding a criminal accountable?
4. How do you know your conception of evil is true?
5. Who are you to sit in judgment of God?
Debate Round No. 3
shatteredseren

Pro

1) The notion of "Evil" is somewhat subjective, although there are certain actions that are almost universally considered evil; genocide, for example. The subjectivity lies in those things which are not universally agreed upon, such as homosexuality. While some believe homosexuality is a "sin," I reject that notion, since sexual relations between consenting adults have no potential to hurt anyone besides those who consent to the relation in the first place. The Nonaggression Principle provides a good basis for determining whether actions violate the rights of others.
2) The evolution of morality is an interesting topic. From an evolutionary perspective, morality provides a sound basis for humankind to increase their chances of reproducing. I invite my opponent to research the science of morality, but it is far too complicated a topic to be put in the responses to cross-examination.
3) If a judge is given unlimited authority, and he sentences a child in possession of marijuana to death, then, yes, I would consider the judge evil.
4) I will respond to this question with another question: How do you know your God is real? One cannot see God, but one CAN see human suffering. Would you call the Holocaust evil? I assume so. So then how is killing the Amalekites any different? My vision of evil is true because we can SEE the horrors caused by genocide, famine, and plagues. One cannot SEE a benevolent God.
5) I am one to stand in judgement of God because I would rather risk burning in hell for supporting peace, love, kindness, and freedom here on Earth than be a hateful, intolerant monster on Earth and somehow expect to go to Heaven. We can SEE Earth. We can't see God, Heaven, or Hell.
ViceRegent

Con

Well, since "evil" is subjective, you cannot argue God or anyone or anything is objectively evil. You just have your arbitrary preference. Given this, who cares what you think? You have not carried your burden. Sorry. You lose.

BTW, when I asked you about how you find evil in a materialist universe, I was not asking about evolution, but since evil is non-material, it does not exist in the world of the atheist, assuming he is a consistent. Of course, I have never met a consistent atheist.

And God will honor you wish to burn in Hell.
Debate Round No. 4
shatteredseren

Pro

First off, I would like to say that I agreed that the burden of proof must fall on me. I did not agree to any of my opponent's definitions. Since I have showed no fewer than twenty different examples of times in which God has committed notable atrocities, and my opponent has done nothing besides insult me and say I will burn in hell, I believe I very much did carry my burden and thus I can see no vote except one in affirmation of the topic. Also, I would like to clarify that I am not, in fact, an atheist. Just because I reject the Abrahamic God doesn't mean I don't believe in a God. I very much do believe in a God. I just don't believe in the same one you do. My opponent has failed to put forth any contentions besides insulting my intelligence. Insults are not arguments. Also, my opponent failed to understand what I meant when I defined "evil." I said it was PARTIALLY subjective. There are certain acts that no sane person would consider "good." My opponent has failed to understand any of my contentions, failed to put forth any of his own, and resorted to base insults in his attempt to rebut my argument. I will not lower myself to that level. For these reasons, I urge a vote in affirmation of the topic. The God of the Old Testament is evil.
ViceRegent

Con

Actually, all you did was point out 20 instances where you have a different moral preference than God. So what? You have not demonstrated that God is objectively evil. You lose.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
There you are, again, unproven. I already know God is God, it's you who needs it proven to you, and no one can do that BUT you. You cannot deny Him out of ignorance, and your not going to find proof if you refuse to open your mind. The fact is that NO scientist can disprove the existence of both the DNA and Atom, neither can anyone of reason deny they're existence infers an intelligence involved that is far superior to their own. You downplay that fact to continue in your ignorance, and therefore continue to do and think anyway you like. Point is you can do that anyway, nobody stopping you. You just have to do precisely what the Bible says you must do. You must feign and lie too yourself that He does not exist, even though He (God HAS shown you evidence of Himself). You suppress the truth and that's your call, But just KNOW at the end of your Life, it is you who condemned yourself. God gives you plenty of chances to turn around, you choose to continue in denial and ignorance of the facts that are before you and have been all the days of your life. Remember God did not send you to Hell, your choices have. God requires payment of death for sin, you sin, therefore you have chosen to pay for it yourself, instead of repenting and turning to Christ. The consequences are your own. I can waste no more time with you. Your greatest suffering will come in the memories of how many times you COULD have been saved .... but refused. Goodbye.
Posted by shatteredseren 1 year ago
shatteredseren
All of your points rely on the unproven assumption that the God of the Bible is the One True God. That's called circular reasoning: "The Bible is true because God wrote it. We know God wrote it because the Bible says he did." That's faulty logic. Provide secular evidence to prove that your faith is the true one. Blind faith is irrational. If you want to "save my soul," do it with reason, logic, and evidence.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Poor thing! Don't you know, that the existence of God by it's very definition, is that he Rule's? In most cases you can't argue with the IRS and win, what would possess you to come to the conclusion that God the supreme being, requires your idea of what is or is not Right or Wrong? Defy the government, go to jail, Defy God go to Hell, and later the Lake of Fire. You see you failed to continue to study .... if you had you would have known that the reason man dies is because we no longer have access to the tree of Life. That is why man dies. Man by disobedience was cast out of Eden. So #1. you owe God an apology.
#2 Man now sinful is separated from God, because God cannot associate With sin. So all who Believe in God remain under condemnation because of their sin AND the wages of sin IS Death, God did not mean physical death all men die Believers and unbelievers because no one has access to the tree of Life! God meant spiritual Death, called the second death. aka Hell and after the Lake of Fire.
#3 Believers are no longer under the condemnation of the second Death ONLY because God being benevolent, made a way where mans sinfulness can be forgiven and the second death PAID. Christ! Jesus paid the price you could not pay. He by an act of obedience took the sin of mankind upon Himself and died so that THROUGH His Sacrifice man may be reconciled too God. You by your Denial of the son of God have doomed your own self to pay the required price for your sin. WHEN you appear before God, you must pay for your sin. When believers appear before God, Christ gives testimony that WE BELONG TO HIM. God the Father see's the death of the son on the cross as payment in full of all those who came to the cross for forgiveness. Go back my friend go back and study again, this your soul depends upon!
Posted by shatteredseren 1 year ago
shatteredseren
FollowerofChrist1955:
I have done my homework. Although I very much do believe Jesus was a real person, a holy man, and an excellent social philosopher, I do not believe he was the Son of God. It is not I who have failed to consider all my options; on the other hand, it is YOU. My issues with most branches of Christianity are as follows:
Original Sin: That would be like saying, because my grandfather killed a man, him, my father, I, and my children must all get the death penalty. Punishing children for a crime committed by their parents is something Kim Jong Un does, not a loving and benevolent God.
Extra-biblical doctrine: For example, the Catholic concept of purgatory is not really in the Bible, and yet the world's largest Christian denomination believes in it.
"Only One Path:" The idea that ONLY Christians will go to heaven. Does this mean that an innocent Hindu, born in India, will burn in hell despite possibly never even HEARING of Jesus? To me, that is not only unfair but downright cruel.
Bigotry: Abhorrence of homosexuality is the most prominent example. I don't believe God punishes victimless crimes, and I believe he judges us on how we treat others.
"Salvation by faith only:" If a murderer is predestined to be saved, how does he deserve Heaven more than a man who sacrifices his life to save someone else but is not "predestined?"
I also don't understand why you continue to believe I haven't "done my homework." I read all those sacred texts BECAUSE I was searching for God. Am I condemned, because I found God in a different way than you? Because I support marriage equality despite the Old Testament commanding me to stone those who are different? Because I don't force my religious views on others? I believe there are many paths to the truth. As long as you are good to others, I believe you will go to heaven. I won't apologize for that any more than you will apologize for your faith. I've made mistakes, but overall my soul is clean.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Because I have done what you and shatteredseren has not .... I Looked for myself. and if you look at just the facts as presented even by science ..... not accepting sciences interpretation, just their facts alone. study the data ..... not the opinions ..... the data. You can come to no other reasonable conclusion.
Shatteredseren, has read every opinion under the sun, but he has never gone in search for God for Himself. and because he has not he stands condemned already. As it is written in the New testament Shatteredseren has allegedly read :

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Revelation 20:15 "And if anyone"s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9).
A place of no rest - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11).

Think about it, would any Rational Person who has read his fate, in the holy scriptures, knowing that at the end of his life because he has refused to acknowledge His God, and has chosen to live his life as he saw fit, shall receive eternal punishment in Hell at death, and in the Lake of Fire, at the White Throne judgement ... would a rational person ignore such a thing? Would a rational person at the very least look to see if such a horror might be true? Think about it?
Posted by ViceRegent 1 year ago
ViceRegent
Evidence? How do you know what is true and what is not?
Posted by shatteredseren 1 year ago
shatteredseren
FollowerofChrist1955
I do believe in a God. I just don't believe in the God of the Old Testament. My belief comes only from evidence, because true faith is not something I possess. I have spent probably hundreds of hours researching this topic. I'm not ignorant as you claim. I've read through the Quran, Bible, Bhagavad Gita, and even the Book of Mormon, multiple times each. I know Buddhism quite well, although I've never read the Canon in its entirety (It takes up an entire bookshelf). I've read commentaries on all of the above and scoured the internet for evidence for and against just about every major religion on the planet. I am deeply respectful of those who put their faith in a higher being, whoever that higher being may be. I'm seen the good and the bad in every faith, and the only one that really works for me is Unitarianism. Baha'i is a close second. I just don't believe that there is only one way to the truth. My belief in a God comes solely from the fact that I believe there are too many "coincidences" for a purely naturalistic approach. However, Biblical literalism is flawed. Face it. The Earth is much older than a couple thousand years and the early chapters of Genesis are about as historical as the Lord of the Rings. I'm open to a debate on that, if you wish.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 1 year ago
FollowerofChrist1955
shatteredseren; Have you actually ever researched Gods existence yourself? There are a considerable amount of ignorant people (lack of knowledge or information) , who appear to want to debate on a subject for which they have never researched. They shout prove it to me .... instead of having the intelligence to search for themselves, I say that because for those who have actually researched it themselves, we've come to the realization that Not only is God real, but he holds every soul on earth accountable for the things they, do or in this case Fail to do.
The end result of which is seriously BAD NEWS. Let me put into prospective for you. Since your still blinded by your rejection of God: Lets put it a secular way- of the thousands of thousands of paranormal videos that exist in the world. IF EVEN 1 IS REAL, it highly suggest that the soul of man and or MORE frightening for you ..... That Demons EXIST! As a follower of God, I can attest to the answer that Angels AND Demons do exist, and if you do not change your attitude and start searching for God for real, your in for a very harsh and frightening awakening at the end of your Life! It's not too late for you you can start searching for him today .... I'll help you!
Posted by shatteredseren 1 year ago
shatteredseren
missmedic
I know; I just found that out. I don't understand why people join DDO just to make themselves look like fools. Oh, well! More points for me!
Posted by shatteredseren 1 year ago
shatteredseren
Edited. Burden of proof is on me.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Gondun 1 year ago
Gondun
shatteredserenViceRegentTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro easily gets conduct. Calling your opponent a "mindless loser" and saying they will burn in Hell is just not professional. There were no major S&G issues on either side. As far as arguments go, because Pro took the BoP on himself, I believe it has to go to Con. Pro provided 20 good examples of when God did or commanded things that went against Pro's sense of morality, but he did not show that they were actually evil. He simply said that most people would agree that they were bad or that no sane person would think they were good. This is not proof that those actions are evil. Although Pro cited the only source used for the round, but he copied and pasted a vast majority of his argument from it, which is not how sources are supposed to be used. Citing the source did not give him any added credibility or strengthen his argument.
Vote Placed by matt8800 1 year ago
matt8800
shatteredserenViceRegentTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro listed some actions that he believed were evil such as murder, rape, threat of forced cannibalism, etc. Con responded with an assertion that Pro doesn?t know what morality is, asked some questions and insulted Pro. Con never explained why things like murdering people that didn?t commit a crime, condoning rape and threatening to force cannibalism is considered moral. Pro provided sources and references yet Con provided none to back up his assertions.
Vote Placed by CJames 1 year ago
CJames
shatteredserenViceRegentTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Even if one doesn't agree with the actions of another, that doesn't make said actions evil. From the perspective of the Jews, the YHVH of the Old Testament/Torah was most definitely a force of good. Aiding them with many of the 'atrocities' as cited by Pro. Since Pro can not prove objective evil and only cites subjective status I find that Con's arguments are more convincing.