The Instigator
gateroadmusic
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
1stLordofTheVenerability
Pro (for)
Winning
51 Points

The Gospel

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/2/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,804 times Debate No: 10307
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (8)

 

gateroadmusic

Con

I contend that nowhere in the Bible is baptism clearly shown to be part of the Gospel. It was not in the Gospel that Abraham received. It was not in the Gospel that Jesus preached. It was not in the Gospel that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost. It most certainly was not in the Gospel that Paul preached. The Bible gives us an unmistakably clear definition of the Gospel in the Word and it does not include baptism.
1stLordofTheVenerability

Pro

Greetings, have fun and keep 'er clean. : )

Firstly, I the definition of 'Gospel' is this:

1. often Gospel The proclamation of the redemption preached by Jesus and the Apostles, which is the central content of Christian revelation.

2.
a. Gospel Bible One of the first four New Testament books, describing the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus and recording his teaching.
b. A similar narrative.

3. a doctrine maintained to be of great importance

4. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the message or doctrine of a religious teacher

5. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms)
a. the story of Christ's life and teachings as narrated in the Gospels
b. the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ
c. (as modifier) the gospel story

~

. (Christian Religious Writings / Bible) any of the first four books of the New Testament, namely Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

- http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

Thus, it is one of my contentions that 'gospel' is a definition that varies extremely widely, and must be narrowed in order to actually fit my opponent's argument.

This said, it appears that most of the definitions of 'Gospel' seem to refer to the Chapters of the New Covenant, making my opponent's argument regarding Abraham irrelevant.

Abraham was the 'Father of Israel' and lived in communion with God. However, this was a time before Israel and even before the Ten Commandments were issued to the Israelites. I think one might recall that Moses (by Divine Inspiration) established most of the rules that the Israelites were to follow.

Even so, the Old Testament is irrelevant to Baptism, as the Israelites lived by the ancient Hebrew Law established by God.

Everything changed with the birth and death of Jesus Christ. With this New Covenant, one no longer was required to sacrifice lambs etc. in order to repent and have the sins forgiven. With this New Covenant came the symbolic practice of the sins being washed away with Baptism. John the Baptist demonstrated this, as did Jesus.

"John's concern seemed to be twofold: (1) John baptized others for repentance and forgiveness of sins, something the sinless Jesus did not need; (2) John's ministry included the coming of a "mightier" one who would bring a better baptism—not only with water but with the Holy Spirit and fire. Jesus persisted and John acceded to administer Jesus' baptism. In accepting John's baptism, Jesus is seen as identifying with sinful humankind and expressing his full solidarity with us." ~ http://en.wikipedia.org...

My second contention for the moment will be that, as a rule or doctrine "..maintained to be of great importance." (as the online dictionary defined 'Gospel'), Baptism is an obligatory doctrine in which to actually symbolize the sins of the 'old life' being washed away. By doing this, one furthers one's walk with God in the Christian religion.

Cheers and stay classy!
Debate Round No. 1
gateroadmusic

Con

Thank you for your challenge, although I am a little confused about the "pro" position you have taken. I had assumed that since the "con" position was that " baptism is not part of the Gospel" that the challenge would prove that it IS part of the Gospel. You seem to be agreeing with me on my point when you write "symbolic practice" in your statement. With all due respect, I need a CLEAR challenge to my contention before I can proceed any farther.
1stLordofTheVenerability

Pro

You're welcome. My apologies about any confusion. I'd wondered if my contention was entirely clear. Indeed, the contention is being challenged.

I have firstly stated that 'Gospel' can merely be defined as 'doctrine'. Thus, many doctrines state it as obligation, which opposes your leading argument.

Secondly, I have negated that Abraham assuredly did not receive the orders (nor anybody else of the original covenant) as Baptism symbolically replaces sacrifice.

And, even though it is partially symbolic in nature, Baptism is still essentially required in order to further one's walk with Christ. It is the admittance that one is willing to shed the old life for Christ. It is an obligation.

As I have stated, Jesus was baptised, John the Baptist did baptise (and was baptised), and all twelve disciples were baptised. It can only be assumed that the Apostles, having baptised many, were in themselves baptised.

"Beginning from the Baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection." - Acts 1:21, 22

Acts is written by the Apostle Paul, is it not?

Thus, I do clearly contend that Baptism is an obligation if one wishes to further his/her Christian walk. One can, indeed, bide time until s/he is completely ready to become 'sanctified'.

Sources:

http://www.gospelweb.net...

http://www.answerbag.com...

http://www.lcms.org...

http://www.greaterthings.com...
Debate Round No. 2
gateroadmusic

Con

Thank you for your insightful response. I will begin by saying that my argument is not about the different time periods the Gospel was proclaimed in, but rather that baptism is not part of the Gospel. You seemed to concede that it was not in the Gospel that Abraham received and I totally agree with that assessment. The Biblical definition for " Gospel " is " a good message" or " the good news". I agree that baptism furthers one's walk with Christ AFTER they have been saved and is part of the believer's sanctification. Regrettably I must inform you that the writer of Acts was Luke. You seemed a little uncertain with your statement. An unmistakably clear definition of the Gospel is given in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4. you will find here that It is the preaching of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for Salvation. when the Gospel is preached, It has the power to bring this Salvation to those that believe It ( Romans 1:16). The first message that was preached after Jesus arose from the grave was consistent with this definition as you will find in Acts 2:14-36. If you follow the other preachers during this time, you will find this consistency in their message also. The strongest evidence against baptism was given by the same man who defined the Gospel as previously mentioned. In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul penned these words; " For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel". The Gospel that He himself had received and preached, and the church at Corinth had received and stood upon did not include baptism. Unlike the clear definition of and exclusion of baptism in the Gospel that has been demonstrated, there is no clear inclusion of baptism as part of the Gospel given in the Bible that can be cited. Thank you kindly.
1stLordofTheVenerability

Pro

Thanks, also, for yours.

Indeed it was Luke. I should have taken the time to research that. No matter, Luke was then Inspired to write that one must be 'ordained'. Obviously this doesn't mean that each of us must become a legal minister, but rather that we each are obligated to become baptised, as according to the Gospel.

Corinthians 15: 1 - 4, also states that "...I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you..." The Gospel thus also includes that which Jesus has preached (or lived), in many cases. And Jesus has adamantly supported, preached and instructed upon Baptism. As such, it is an obligation of the Gospel

In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus commands all people, in becoming His disciples, to be taught His word and be baptized. It is thus an essential part in becoming a Disciple of Christ.

You are correct about it actively bringing Salvation to those whom peruse it. But this does not mean that Baptism isn't mentioned (and obligatory) in the Gospel.

In fact, Baptism has a strict protocol in which has been specified clearly in the Bible. If it were so trivial, why would God go to such bother?

Baptism is most assuredly not necessary in becoming a Christian, but it is obligatory in becoming a sound Disciple of Christ.

Thanks for a wonderful debate!
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Jesusrules 6 years ago
Jesusrules
It's insane to think the Gospel does not include baptism. If you don't need to be baptized, why was Jesus or John the Baptist baptized? Why did the apostles enforce to be baptized? They had everyone baptized! Acts 2:38 says Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christfor the forgiveness of you sins
Posted by Jesusfreak012095 7 years ago
Jesusfreak012095
We baptism is in the Church today because it was practiced during the life of Jesus as a symbol of a cleansed soul, also because John the Baptist baptised Jesus.
Posted by 1stLordofTheVenerability 7 years ago
1stLordofTheVenerability
Congradulations on a great debate, Gateroad. : ) Thanks muchly.
Posted by 1stLordofTheVenerability 7 years ago
1stLordofTheVenerability
Gateroad, could you please not vote? I'm not capable due to verification purposes, and it would be a lot easier if we started at an even 0. : )
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Puck
Were you after a cross denominational debate or can anyone join?
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