The Instigator
Ls4baseball
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Rockylightning
Con (against)
Winning
33 Points

The Great Depression was primarily a result of socialized programs not failed capitalism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/28/2010 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,204 times Debate No: 13496
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (8)

 

Ls4baseball

Pro

While there were many components that resulted the Great Depression, the primary reason for the Great depression occurring in America was the socialized programs instilled by presidents Hoover and FDR, and not as a result of failed capitalism.
Rockylightning

Con

You have the burden of proof. I await your arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Ls4baseball

Pro

First, thank you for accepting this debate.

In October 1929, the stock market crashed, two months later unemployment peaked at 9 percent and subsided for the most part for the next several months, down to about 6.3 percent in June 1930(essentially allowing the free market to do its thing). which brings me to my first social program.

The Smoot Hawley Act was enacted, designed to reduce unemployment by restricting imports in the US so more of these would be built in the US. Within 5 months of the bill being passed there was double digit unemployment for the first time and never subsided below double digits for the entire decade of the 30's.
FCR then brought in the National Industrial Recovery act, the Agricultural adjustment act, and the Wagner act, this was the largest governmental social programs for stimulating the economy at this point in history, and yet unemployment never came below double digits for the entire decade.

So basically I propose that the economy with a free market had a down period, like all economies do, it began correcting itself and the "adjustments" Hoover and FDR made to stimulate the economy was the leading factor in creating the great depression. in order to be shown wrong Rockylightning should show that these policies were not the leading factors in the great depression, but that capitalism's failure played more of a pivotal role.
Rockylightning

Con

==Refutations==

"Smoot Hawley Tariff Act"

Please prove that the two are directly correlated. This tariff was a failure yes. That does not mean that it was the cause of the great depression.

"NIR" This point is not related to the cause of the great depression. It deals with the after affects.

===Points===

1. "The 1920's were a time of unbelievable prosperity. The stock market was going through the roof and the United States seemed to have the formula for limitless prosperity. However, the same formula that generated all of that profit would also be the cause of Black Tuesday.
Investment during the 1920's was based on the unstable basis of margin buying. Investors bought borrowed money from their brokers, who went to banks for that money. When stocks failed and investors needed to default, the money was permenantly lost.

However, adding to the crash of '29 was the slowing economy. The desire for consumer durables (expensive items refrigerators, radios, and automobiles) went down as Americans became satisfied with what they had. This in turn affected the companies and workers that produced these items. A downward spiral was set in motion." [2]

==Sources==
1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. http://www.angelfire.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Ls4baseball

Pro

The Smooth Hawley Tariff, NIR, Agricultural adjustment act and the wagner act were all but into effect in an economy that was stabilizing as shown by my statement "In October 1929, the stock market crashed, two months later unemployment peaked at 9 percent and subsided for the most part for the next several months, down to about 6.3 percent in June 1930(essentially allowing the free market to do its thing)".
Following the enactments of the previously mentioned the economy immediately hit a downward spiral, i believe this economic downturn to be a direct effect of the socialized programs implemented. They were put in place to stimulate the economy and the exact opposite happened, this should lead to at the a sensible person to see the correlation.

the NIR was enacted in 1933 still very much during the great depression not after.

As i stated earlier the stock market crash clearly played a part in beginning a recession, but recessions happen in all economies, he stock market crash itself was not nearly enough to start the great depression. After the stock market crashed the economy as a i said started leveling off as expected and did not take a turn for the worst until after the previously mentioned governmental programs.

Your argument for the desire for consumer durables going down leading to the great depression seems by far more presumptuous then mine for the governmental programs for two reasons.

1. i showed how the economy was stabilizing and only went for the worse after these programs were enacted
2. there is no basis you have shown of Americans being satisfied with what they have or of that correlating to the great depression

so in conclusion i wish to summarize arguments and take note of my key points.

1. the stabilization of the economy with a free market after a recession
2. government intervenes on a massive scale
3. immediate economic downturn after government intervention
4. No basis for assuming free capitalism lead to great depression

I would like to take this time to thank everyone for reading this and voting, and my opponent for accepting my first debate on debate.org.
Rockylightning

Con

"As i stated earlier the stock market crash clearly played a part in beginning a recession, but recessions happen in all economies, he stock market crash itself was not nearly enough to start the great depression. After the stock market crashed the economy as a i said started leveling off as expected and did not take a turn for the worst until after the previously mentioned governmental programs."

The stock market crash directly affected the great depression. People lost their money, went to the banks and the money wasn't there. It's that simple. I remind the voters that my opponent has the burden of proof and [unfortunately] I have provided more proof than he has.

" i showed how the economy was stabilizing and only went for the worse after these programs were enacted"

No you did not. You just stated it and didn't prove it.

===Conclusion===
My Opponent has stated no proof, even though he is the instigator and the proposition.
He has stated 0 sources.
He has stated no evidence.

Vote Con
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Rockylightning 6 years ago
Rockylightning
I see a crash and burn coming.
Posted by J.Kenyon 6 years ago
J.Kenyon
"I should just drop out and devote all of my time to debate.org."

This.
Posted by Rockylightning 6 years ago
Rockylightning
The ones against livebriand are so bad its a joke.
Posted by Rockylightning 6 years ago
Rockylightning
My first legit debate in a while.
Posted by Ore_Ele 6 years ago
Ore_Ele
I'd also recommend to the instigator to change "socialized programs" to "government involvement" since I'd bet that is what he will actually be arguing, both social programs AND economic actions by the government.
Posted by Ls4baseball 6 years ago
Ls4baseball
@JBlack there is a difference between recessions and Depression, it was a recession until Hoover and FDR implemented there social programs.
Posted by Danielle 6 years ago
Danielle
I would also take this, but I'm out of town until next week and this is a HUGE party weekend (Thursday - Sunday) so I doubt anyone over 18 will have the time or inclination to write a round in 24 hours.
Posted by mongeese 6 years ago
mongeese
Are you serious, Zetsubou?

Explain the large depression of 1921 and previous depressions that never got nearly as bad as the Great Depression despite an utter lack of government involvement. And I don't understand why you're now attacking Roosevelt's plan of socialization against socialization, as I thought you were PRO-Roosevelt. Funny.
Posted by Loserboi 6 years ago
Loserboi
hmmm can't wait to see end of this one
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Are you serious?

Explain the Social Security(Welfare) Act of 1935 and Roosevelt's other reforms AFTER the great depression. How do you solve an issue caused by "socialization" with socialization? Easy win for Con.

I haven't got the time, resources or concise knowledge on the topic to give a decisive victory that someone like JBlake would so I'll let it slide.
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by Daktoria 4 years ago
Daktoria
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro should become familiar with the "Old Right" before making this argument again.
Vote Placed by Shtookah 6 years ago
Shtookah
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Vote Placed by launilove 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by mongoose 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Austriananarchist 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by pewpewpew 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Ls4baseball 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Rockylightning 6 years ago
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