The Instigator
1Devilsadvocate
Con (against)
Tied
5 Points
The Contender
hcps-jainap
Pro (for)
Tied
5 Points

The Holocaust isn't estimated at 10-11 million.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/10/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,447 times Debate No: 28050
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (37)
Votes (2)

 

1Devilsadvocate

Con

FREEDO made the following statement:
"The Holocaust isn't estimated at 10-11 million."[1]

The resolution of this debate is that statement made by FREEDO, in the context of that thread.

( I would send the challenge directly to FREEDO, but I already sent one, & DDO will not allow me to send him another one right now, for some reason.)

No lawyering
No semantics
No new arguments in R4

[1] http://www.debate.org...
hcps-jainap

Pro

I thank my opponent for the opportunity to debate this topic, and hope to bring some light to it.

My opponent uses the term "Holocaust" when referring to the deaths of 10-11 million people at the hands of the Germans during World War II. The Holocaust is "the destruction of the Jews of Europe under the Nazi regime, and it is also employed in describing the annihilation of other groups of people in World War II. " [1]

This leads to two main estimates of the number of people killed during the Holocaust. Both estimates will be calculated.

1. One definition of the Holocaust is "the destruction of the Jews in Europe under the Nazi Regime." [1] Under this definition, we can look at the number killed in the individual countries in Europe:

Polish-Soviet area: 4,565,000
Germany: 125,000
Austria: 65,000
Czechoslovakia (in the pre-Munich boundaries): 277,000
Hungary, including northern Transylvania: 402,000
France: 83,000
Belgium: 24,000
Luxembourg: 700
Italy: 7,500
The Netherlands: 106,000
Norway: 760
Romania (Regat, southern Transylvania, southern Bukovina): 40,000
Yugoslavia: 60,000
Greece: 65,000
Total Loss: 5,820,960 [2]

These are semi-conservative estimates. Estimates of the number of deaths attributed to the Holocaust (or at least this particular definition of the Holocaust) range from 5,600,000 to 6,250,000. [3]

The total loss, 5,820,920, does not fall within my opponent's calculations of the number of deaths attributed to the Holocaust (10-11 million).

2. Let's explore the estimated death toll under the second definition of the Holocaust: the annihilation of both the Jews and other groups of people in World War II. [1]

Group Deaths
European Jews 5,600,000 to 6,250,000
Soviet prisoners of war 3,000,000
Polish Catholics 3,000,000
Serbians 700,000 (Croat Ustasa persecution)
Roma, Sinti, and Lalleri 222,000 to 250,000
Germans (political, religious, and Resistance) 80,000
Germans (handicapped) 70,000
Homosexuals 12,000
Jehovah"s Witnesses 2500 [3]

Based off of this definition, the conservative estimate of the Holocaust's death toll is 12,674,500. The liberal estimate of the Holocaust's death toll is 13,352,500. This estimate also does not fall into my opponent's death toll estimates of 10 million to 11 million.

In conclusion, my opponent asserts that the death toll of the Holocaust is 10-11 million. However, by both definitions of the death toll, my opponent's estimates are incorrect. If the Holocaust is considered to be the destruction of the Jews in Europe under the Nazi Regime, then the death toll is estimated to be 5,820,920, which is 44.56% off of the mean calculation of my opponent's calculated range of Holocaust deaths. If the Holocaust is considered to be the annihilation of both the Jews and other groups of people in World War II, then the death toll is considered to be between 12,674,500 and 13,352,500, which is 26.75% and 21.38% off of my opponent's lower and higher boundary of the death tolls attributed to the Holocaust. Thus, based off of my opponent's evidence, my opponent's calculations are incorrect. The Holocaust isn't estimated at 10-11 million based off of either estimate.

[1] http://www.chgs.umn.edu...
[2] Judah Gribetz with Edward L. Greenstein and Regina S. Stein, The Timetables of Jewish History: A Chronology of the Most Important People and Events in Jewish History. (New York: A Touchstone Book, Simon and Schuster, 1993.) p. 479
[3] http://www.holocaustchronicle.org...
Debate Round No. 1
1Devilsadvocate

Con

I thank my opponent for his detailed calculations.

While those may be valid estimates as well, Others estimate the # to be between 10 & 11 million.

"Recent estimates based on figures obtained since the fall of the Soviet Union indicates some ten to 11 million civilians and prisoners of war were intentionally murdered by the Nazi regime.[12]"(1)

(I should also say that I was not expecting my opponent to give a higher estimate.
I wrote in R1: "The resolution of this debate is that statement made by FREEDO, in the context of that thread."
Based on the context in that thread FREEDO seemed to be saying it was less than 10 - 11 million.

Some guy: Can't think of anything worse than the Holocaust...

FREEDO: Your level of education is pretty mediocre then...

Some Guy: No it isn't, and 10-11 million dead isn't small, in real or relative terms...
There's nothing else I can think of with more than 4 million dead.

FREEDO: The Holocaust isn't estimated at 10-11 million...

I'll leave this to the voters to decide.)

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org...
hcps-jainap

Pro

From my opponent's quote, in addition to the forum itself, I find no evidence that FREEDO was asserting that the Holocaust had less than 10 million deaths. However, it would make sense if he had done so. The most widely accepted definition of the Holocaust on the internet seems to be the systematic murder of the Jews. Some sources, including the University of Minnesota, state that the Holocaust also includes the number of Jews, but these are few in number in comparison to sources who consider the former definition.

Here are all of the sources giving statistics on the Holocaust:

http://library.thinkquest.org...
http://www.holocaustchronicle.org...
http://faculty.ucc.edu...
http://www.humanitas-international.org...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.historyplace.com...
http://pages.uoregon.edu...
http://www.ahbjewishcenter.org...

7 of these 9 sources claim that the Holocaust was the systematic murder of the Jews during WWII. Estimates according to this definition range from 5.5-6 million. The definition of the Holocaust which includes ethnic groups other than Jews give estimates of 12-13 million.

The only reference you gave regarding your estimates is Wikipedia. You claim that the website asserts estimates of 10-11 million, as shown by sources [12] and [13]. Let's take a look at both.

Source [12] is "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" is a book written by Timothy D. Snyder. According to this source, however "5.4m died in a well known event, the Holocaust " but many more died in more obscure circumstances." There is no reference given to the 10-11 million person figure.

Source [13] is... well... here it is, in all of its glory: http://www.tnr.com...

In conclusion, there are no academic Holocaust death toll estimates that give figures of 10-11 million. The sources referenced in the Wikipedia article point to a death toll of 5.4 million. If the definition of the Holocaust is considered to be the systematic killing of Jews and other political/ethnic groups, death toll estimates are given at 12-13 million.

[12] Snyder, Timothy (2010). Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. London: The Bodley Head.
Debate Round No. 2
1Devilsadvocate

Con

Lets clarify something. There are 2 separate issues here;
What is the holocaust?
& How many people died?

As evidence that the Holocaust refers only to Jews my opponent brings several links, & says 7 out of 9 say that the Holocaust was only the Jews.

Well lets have a look:
(For the voters convenience I have provided the relevant quotes from the source, feel free to look them up if you want, but I presume Pro will point out any mistakes I may have made)


1) http://library.thinkquest.org... - Projects by Students for Students
“The Holocaust time period was from January 30, 1933 to May 8, 1945. An estimate of 5,860,000 Jewish people were killed. About 5,000,000 people who were not Jewish were also killed.”

2) http://www.holocaustchronicle.org... - Does not say either way.
But I note that the site is called "The holocaust chronicles" the first thing on the page in the link is :
"Total Deaths from Nazi Genocide Policies".

3) http://faculty.ucc.edu... - Also does not say.
It has a list of "Jewish Victims of the Holocaust". Does that mean that the only victims were Jews?
(One can make the argument the other way around, if Jews were the only victims of the holocaust why would it have said "Jewish victims of the holocaust"? If all victims of the holocaust were Jewish, it would be redundant to say "Jewish victims of the holocaust". )

4) http://www.humanitas-international.org...- Same as before.
All it says is:
"ESTIMATED JEWISH DEATHSDURING THE HOLOCAUST" followed by a list.

5) http://www.telegraph.co.uk...- This one is indeed clear. The problem is that it's clearly saying all deaths are included in the term holocaust.
The article is entitled "The Holocaust death toll". The article then reads

"Millions of Jews, gypsies, Russians and prisoners of war died in Hitter’s death camps as part of his Final Solution plans.
Below that is a list of the death toll." It proceeds to list them, & that's the end of the article. Couldn't have been more clear, that the term holocaust is not strictly limited to Jewish deaths.

6) http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk... - This is the same as the previous one. It begins by saying,
"The Holocaust is the name given to the murder of millions of Jews, Gypsies etc...."

7) http://www.historyplace.com... - This one I'll grant, although it isn't intending to define the term holocaust it does imply that the holocaust is the 6,000,000 Jews.

8)http://pages.uoregon.edu... - Same as 3 & 4
“The following charts is based on estimates compiled by Raul Hilberg concerning the number and cause of death in the Holocaust. These percentages include only the deaths of Jewish victims, not those of other victim groups, such as...”
He is simply discussing the Jewish part of the Holocaust, that doesn’t mean that the term is exclusive.

9)http://www.ahbjewishcenter.org... - Same as 8.
"STATISTICS OF JEWISH DEATHS FROM THE HOLOCAUST". Again just because they're discussing Jewish deaths of the holocaust doesn't mean non - Jewish aren't included in the term. ( It is after all a Jewish center.)

After I looked up all that, it seems to me that my opponent agrees that the term includes non- Jews. After his list of links he writes:
The definition of the Holocaust which includes ethnic groups other than Jews ...”.

But wait, he then criticizes my 1st source because it says:
“"5.4m died in a well known event, the Holocaust " but many more died in more obscure circumstances."

So Let me clarify the matter the way I see it. The term holocaust is used both ways.
Thus it is incorrect to say “The Holocaust isn't estimated at 10-11 million.”.

Now about my opponents criticism of my source:

“Source [12] is "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" is a book written by Timothy D. Snyder. According to this source, however "5.4m died in a well known event, the Holocaust " but many more died in more obscure circumstances. There is no reference given to the 10-11 million person figure.”"

The word holocaust in that book review is obviously using the term to refer the killing of the Jews. Not the # if you include all victims.

Pro writes this as if he has a copy of the book and is reading the source. He writes:
According to this source, however "5.4m died in a well known event, the Holocaust " but many more died in more obscure circumstances. There is no reference given to the 10-11 million person figure.”
But he is actually quoting from:
http://en.Wikipedia.org...
& even that article is not based directly on the book, the source in Wikipedia for that quote is a book review “Guy Walters (November 1, 2010). "Bloodlands". The Financial Times: p. 1,” . So it’s not even quoting the book itself.

(As I have shown the term is used both ways, & Pro cannot say “There is no reference given to the 10-11 million person figure”,
when all he has is an article based on a review of the book.)

Just to cover my self I will provide more sources that support me, and explain why Pro's tallying method is wrong & misleading.

I will use 1 of Pro’s own sources to show that the TOTAL is estimated between10 - 11 million:
http://library.thinkquest.org... states "An estimate of 5,860,000 Jewish people were killed. About 5,000,000 people who were not Jewish were also killed."
That's a total of 10,860,000.

The 2nd source seems fits with my opponents count, but let me explain why I think that this & my opponents method is misleading;
These numbers are given to show the deaths of different groups of people, & for that it's accurate.
But if it's used to tally up the total, the #'s will come out to high.
The reason being that many people are counted twice. 1st it counts all the European Jews, then it counts all soviet prisoners, but among those soviet prisoners were Jews . So Jewish soviet prisoners are counted twice.

The same goes for "Polish Catholics", now you might say a Jew can't be counted as a polish catholic. But you have to realize that Hitler viewed the Jews as a race not as a religion, so any converts or children of converts were considered Jews.
"Anyone with three or four Jewish grandparents was to be exterminated without exception. In other genocides, people were able to escape death by converting to another religion or in some other way assimilating. This option was not available to the Jews of occupied Europe,[26] unless their grandparents had converted before 18 January 1871. All persons of recent Jewish ancestry were to be exterminated in lands controlled by Germany.[27]"(1)

Thus a person could be counted in both the "Jew" column, and any of the other columns. & therefor to try tallying it up based on such a list will be inaccurate. I note that this source did not give a total based on these #'s .

More sites that puts the total # between 10 & 11 million:
http://www.nps.gov...
http://fcit.usf.edu...
http://www.holocaustforgotten.com...

Since I'm nearing my limit, I'll close with a summary.

In closing:
1) I have shown (as did my opponent himself) that the term holocaust can refer to all victims, not just Jews.

2) I have shown estimates from numerous sources clearly putting the total # of holocaust victims between 10 to 11.

3) This I don't think was needed, but I showed how all the sources can be in agreement about the total #. & the problem with pros tally.

I thank my opponent for an enlightening debat, & the voters for reading, voting, & writing RFD's. Thank you.

VOTE CON!



(1)http://en.wikipedia.org...
hcps-jainap

Pro

hcps-jainap forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
37 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
This isn't debatable. It is clear, and you misread it. I'm not going to debate about whether or not something in Wikipedia means one thing or another, especially when half the links in wikipedia are broken.
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
"Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition,[8][9] and some use the common noun "holocaust" to describe other Nazi mass murders, including those of Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, and homosexuals.[10][11] Recent estimates based on figures obtained since the fall of the Soviet Union indicates some ten to 11 million civilians and prisoners of war were intentionally murdered by the Nazi regime.[12][13]"

11 million is total, including jews.

Are you willing to debate this?
Posted by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
"The broadest definition - Is not a standard definition."

Your "standard definition" was sourced from a paragraph that was talking about an estimated 10-11 million non-Jew casualties from the Holocaust. Therefore, YOUR "standard definition" was aiming at 16 million casualties minimum. Again, this is YOUR standard definition, not mine, nor wikipedia's, nor anyone else's.
Posted by hcps-jainap 4 years ago
hcps-jainap
I think it may be that my overall points were better, but your timing of posts was better. I guess that may be it, but I'm not sure. But yeah, I enjoyed it!
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
Well Somehow your winning.

I'm telling you the voting on this site is awful.
This is the 2nd time something like that happened to me.

Thanx for a great debate though.
Posted by hcps-jainap 4 years ago
hcps-jainap
Too much homework... haha. You got me in a touch spot, anyway... I probably wouldn't have been able to recover
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
No you did very well. Gave me a real run for my money.

What happened last round?
Posted by hcps-jainap 4 years ago
hcps-jainap
Good debate! Any tips for next time?
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
What you just quoted shows very strongly that according to the STANDARD usage of the word "Holocaust", the # is around 11 million.
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
The broadest definition - Is not a standard definition.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Chuz-Life 4 years ago
Chuz-Life
1Devilsadvocatehcps-jainapTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: As Con had made it clear that the CONTEXT of Freedo's comment was key to this debate; Pros HIGHER Estimate when considered along with Freedo's comment and the 'context' noted by Con... Pros higher estimate reveal destroys his own chances of winning this specific debate. Conduct goes to Con also due to Pros FF round.
Vote Placed by wrichcirw 4 years ago
wrichcirw
1Devilsadvocatehcps-jainapTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: see comment