The Instigator
JasperFrancisShickadance
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
RichardCypher
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

The Holy Spirit is real

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
RichardCypher
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/1/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,670 times Debate No: 61170
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

JasperFrancisShickadance

Pro

Step right up atheists and LET THE DEBATING BEGIN! Keep in mind, if I can prove the Trinity is real, I have more than proved my case.

http://www.gospelanswers1.com...

http://www.bible.ca....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com...

http://www.gracect.org...

http://www.gracect.org...

http://ahmadalhassan.files.wordpress.com...

http://www.drdavewhite.com...

Jesus said two helpful things about the Holy Spirit.
First, that the Holy Spirit's job is to convict (or, convince) people of their sin. Now, that's a very UNcomfortable feeling for those being convicted! (John 16:8)
Second, that he would send the Holy Spirit to believers once he'd returned to heaven, and that the Holy Spirit would be our comfortor. He brings a sense of comfort and peace to those he indwells. Provided, of course, that they act on the conviction of sin that he brings! (John 16:12-15)

Until the Holy Spirit first convicts us of our sin and we repent as a response, we cannot then go on to experience his comfort and peace! The Christians who received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost had all repented and been obedient. That special anointing had visible signs accompanying in order to establish the new, baby Church, and to get the spreading of the gospel message shot out into all the world.

If you became a Christian aged 4, you would have had very little grasp of the gospel, let alone any of the above. If you genuinely turned to Jesus with the simple faith of a little child, you undoubtedly would be indwelt with the Holy Spirit back then. The question is, have you matured to Christian adult-hood since then? Or are you trying to be a sort of 'independent' Christian who isn't bothered about the fellowship of the saints and the spiritual body of Christ (the Church)?

The Holy Spirit works in our hearts and minds and deals with our consciences. As you awaken to his subtle promptings in those areas, you will become more and more aware of what he is doing in your life. Prayer is an absolutely fundamental aspect of knowing how the Holy Spirit would deal with us. So I hope this encourages you back to basics. And I do sympathise with the cosh effect of your medication. It's horrible. Just make sure that when you are not so badly affected by it, you get close to God in prayer, Bible study and worship. He's with you all the way, whether you are aware of his presence or not. He's promised never to leave us or forsake us. Trust him!
[http://answers.yahoo.com...]

https://www.youtube.com...
RichardCypher

Con

Resolution= the holy spirit is real
Proposition=demonstrating the holy spirit is real based on evidence in human reality
Burden of Proof=providing physical evidence that conforms to physical human reality that holy spirit is provable through logical physical evidence

Pro will not be able to provide this physical evidence of existence, since by his own biblical sources the holy spirit is intangible. Thus anything someone claims the holy spirit done it is not practical reason because someone else can attribute the so-called act to a ghost, wind, fate, destiny, or logical order.
Debate Round No. 1
JasperFrancisShickadance

Pro

First, let me get things straight. My opponent has already concluded confidently that the Holy Spirit cannot be proven as real because there is no physical evidence. Of course, I do not like debating anybody who has absolutely no open-mindedness (because it could be considered a waste of time). But I shall have fun indoctrinating RichardCypher and proving that his automatic conclusion is wrong.

Second of all I want to remind you that I am not arguing for Creationism as this is not a debate about that. Instead I will have to let you research evidence (scientific, historically, observably) for God, but still showing a provable case that the Christian Trinity is not a myth.

"...anything someone claims the holy spirit done it is not practical reason because someone else can attribute the so-called act to a ghost, wind, fate, destiny, or logical order."
The Holy Spirit comes unlike we could comprehend because He is God and God is all-powerful. I say this because I believe that the Bible is God's Word and what He says in It is true, so I will have to have - faith - that our Creator God does not just have little assistants (Jesus and the Holy Spirit) who work with Him.

DEFINITIONS AND INTRODUCTION

Most people would say that Holy Spirit is the third part of the Trinity. The Trinity is 3-in-1 because there are three parts of one good God who created the earth. All the Creation evidence that can be seen throughout the universe and history is really eye opening and it all comes together when you read the Bible, because after all, it is truly His story that we are even here, living; it is part of His story that we are debating this. The very beginning of this magnificent story can be read in Genesis, chapters 1 through 7. We see that there"s more to it than "God created the world and it was good." Jesus and the Holy Spirit created it too, [1] and all of the creations were not just good, but perfect. That is, until the Devil tempted Adam and Eve which disrupted this perfect world. This is the Creation story and it is where things start to tie together.

CHRISTIANS PROVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL

I always wonder, if the Holy Spirit hasn't been around all this time, how and why have Christians been so involved and enthusiastic in their faith? Most Christians that I have ever known started off skeptical and seeing the logic in atheism more than believing in a guy up in the sky. But then they realized something, and in my opinion their eyes are opened when they experienced the supernatural gift and friendship that you can have as soon as you allow Jesus and His (the Bible"s) morals into your life and heart. [2] These Christians become not only devout and satisfied with their faith, but also they are still learning things and keep discovering more gifts from the relationship with God. This just seems too complicated for a person"s conscience to make up, as if the whole thing they call a relationship is a simple figment of their imagination. [3] Furthermore, this would mean that approximately 77% of the American adult population would be labelled mentally crazy, and that would cause a ripple effect of multiple controversial changes in the American way. [4] Who knows what would happen then. The point is: I challenge you (my opponent) to consider why Christians are so devoted if, when they read the Bible and it says you shall have a relationship with Christ and they end up not having one (as you say). And if I were to suppose that they are NOT all mentally ill, than why wouldn't the Holy Spirit be real too?

The link for the TV series, called "Encountering the Holy Spirit THE JORDAN RIVER," is on Round 1. I strongly encourage you to watch because it gives a thorough explanation of the Holy Spirit working and powerfully moving in people's lives.

THE BIBLE (FIGURATIVELY) PROVES THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL

By studying/reading in Genesis, we realize how the Trinity worked in the start of human history and how it is systemized so that all Three have roles even though they are all God. For example, John 6:44 says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Then again in John 14:6, "No one comes to the Father except through me." [5] This is proof enough that God's Son (Jesus) and the Father (God) work(ed) in unity, as a tri-une God.

You can see how the Holy Spirit has had and has now a significant role in this world. Everything I will explain will probably have a foundation coming from God's Word, but when explaining the Holy Spirit I will mostly be sharing stories of witnesses plus accounts of when the Holy Ghost has been seen and experienced. Here are some verses that have become real to people about the Third Person in the Trinity:

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Acts 2:38 "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." In this verse, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are united in works to make it possible for us to receive supernatural gifts and be released from all guilt and sins.

Luke 11:13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask!" God is saying here that even though we are sinful, we can receive nice gifts - just as we give gifts to our kids - and that the Holy Spirit is better than any gifts! This also explains why all around the Bible it says God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are our friends who love and help us more than we can comprehend. This is who the Holy Spirit is.

2nd Corinthians 13:14 AND Philippians 2:1-2 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

Verses that can in a way prove the existence of the Trinity:
Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in OUR image."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."

John 10:33 "'I and the Father are one.' The Jews took up stones again to stone Him: Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?"

Philippians 2:9 "Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are on heaven and on earth and under the earth, every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." [6]

THE UNIVERSE PROVES THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL

This is an amazing fact that will be interesting for you to try to rebut. That the divine Trinity, the tri-une God, has created a great universe which is itself a trinity, with each of its three components also structured as trinities. This would not necessarily prove that God is a Trinity, but it is a fact that needs explanation. Could God have created it as a model (or type, or analogy) that would help people understand His own Nature, at least in some degree? The universe is all Space, all Time, and all Matter (including energy as a form of matter); in fact, many scientists speak of it as a Space-Matter-Time continuum. Each component permeating and representing the whole as the Universe. Furthermore, note the parallels between the divine trinity and the tri-universe in terms of the logical order of its three components. Space is the invisible, omnipresent background of everything in the universe. Matter-and-Energy reveal the reality of the universe. Time makes the universe understandable in the events occurring in it. Note that exactly the same sentence will apply if the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit replace the words, Space, Matter, and Time. Space itself is also a tri-unity, comprised of three dimensions, with each dimension permeating all space. The reality of any portion of space is obtained by multiplying the three dimensions together (the "mathematics of the Trinity" is not 1+1+1=1, but rather 1x1x1=1). Further, Space is identified in the first dimension seen in the second dimension, experienced in the third dimension. The same sentence could be used with Father, Son, and Spirit replacing first, second, and third dimensions. Etc. etc with the Time and Matter, as time is present, future and past, and matter is unseen yet omnipotent Energy. [7]

HISTORY PROVES THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL

Considering the fact that the Bible is composed of many journals, song books, prophetic words, poems, and more journals, we can call it historical artifacts written from the perspectives of real people. Here are some verses that show the Holy Spirit working in the lives of people in the Old Testament. Ezekiel 11:5; Micah 3:8; Zechariah 7:12; Acts 28:25.

CONCLUSION

The Holy Spirit proves that God is real. The Holy Spirit proves that Jesus is real. And finally, the Holy Spirit proves that there is such a thing as supernatural activity, this can be witnessed most times you encounter a protestant church or a knowledgeable Christian. I await your rebuttals and look forward to debating more.

[1] - http://biblehub.com...
- http://answersingenesis.org...
[2] http://www.kelleyvarner.org...
[3] http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...
[4] http://www.gallup.com...
[5] http://www.biblegateway.com...
[6] http://www.bible.ca...
[7] http://www.icr.org...
RichardCypher

Con

Rebuttal=

Definitions & Introduction

We read speculation, assumptions, and guesswork. Nothing was presented that was objective, only subjective.

CHRISTIANS PROVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL

The only thing Christians have proved is that they believe in something they cannot physical demonstrate to us that it exist. Proof is based on objectivity of physical evidence. I can prove to you a sun lights our skies by taking you outside and pointing up at it. I can prove to you fire burns and the thing we call burn induces pain by lighting up your palm with a cigarette lighter. (Both are examples of objectivity.) But I can't prove to you I saw a ghost regardless if you saw one too at another time, in another place. I can't prove to you aliens exist regard if you believe it or not. (Both are examples of non-objectivity assumptions.)

There is nothing about that video that proves a holy spirit. Just a bunch of Third World Pakistanis adopting a practice historically shown to have slaughtered the same race of people. http://www.historytoday.com...

THE BIBLE (FIGURATIVELY) PROVES THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL

The word figuratively says it all. Figuratively my name is Richard Cypher. But I'm literally not Richard Cypher. http://sot.wikia.com... Figuratively he is a Blade of Truth=http://www.debate.org... But literally he is just a man. The figuratives can go on and on. They prove nothing but delusion, fantasy, & roleplaying innocence.

THE UNIVERSE PROVES THE HOLY SPIRIT IS REAL

Well, actually it literally proves matter exist--nothing else.

Argument=

Pro stated= "if I can prove the Trinity is real, I have more than proved my case.". So what does proving something consist of? Irving Copi wrote= "In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence." http://en.wikipedia.org... Copi says that only evidence of something that exist or occurred is provable. And if it did actually occurred qualified investigators would like find some evidence of it.

Acts 2=
nd when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

1. There is no physical evidence or eyewitness testimony apart from the bible that this event really occurred. No one secular historian has ever produced authenic evidence this event took place. Here's why"
2. here came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind
3. there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them
4a. to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
4b. that every man heard them speak in his own language.
5. What human language are they speaking? Is this anyone's own native tongue? Please go to 1:48; top video
6. Listen to Anita. Really? Listen it is the SAME phonetic sounds ALL OVER AGAIN. bottom video

that every man heard them speak in his own language. This is self-explanatory. Each single person had "the ability to speak in each one on native language and the other persons were able to understand them in their OWN language." http://www.debate.org...

Summary

The conflicting alleged works of the Holy Spirit to cause Christians to speak in tongues aka languages is verifiable proof it does not exist, it is not real. Mentally ill? If God told man to write the Bible in his words and God told them to write "speaking in (human) languages", then why do Christians attribute speaking in (human) languages to babbling sounds? How come the Greek word for tongues in the Act chapter has the human meaning for human language--and not babble or an unknown word? An unknown word would be some convincing evidence that the babble Anita spoke was indeed the language of angels or God. Is this not the sign of mental illness, for multiple people to invent an undecipherable phonetic ramble and not use an actual language? Not only is it lunacy, its a fraud, and its laughable.
Debate Round No. 2
JasperFrancisShickadance

Pro

This round is all rebuttals:

"...But I can't prove to you I saw a ghost regardless if you saw one too at another time, in another place. I can't prove to you aliens exist regard if you believe it or not." You cannot feel or experience aliens or ghosts, because according to the stories, aliens are their own species and they do not rule anything and ghosts are dead people who come back to 'earth' as souls; all unlike the Holy Spirit therefore irrelevant to the subject.

The Bible can be figurative and still prove something, am I wrong? Besides, I didn't say the Bible is figurative, I said 'figuratively speaking the Bible proves the existence of the Holy Spirit.' God's Word describes who/what the Holy Spirit is; this obviously doesn't just prove that the Holy Spirit is real yet shows us how we know that 'speaking in tongues of men in angels' is from the Holy Spirit. New resolution for this statement - so that you can further understand - is "Non directly the Bible proves the Holy Spirit is Real."

I want a rebuttal for my argument concerning that the Universe is evidence for the Holy Spirit and what do I get? A typical atheist answer: "Well, actually it literally proves matter exist--nothing else." Let me ask you, how did the matter get there? It came out of thin air...oh wait, in the very beginning there WAS no air...hmm? The very fact that what I explained is true is proof that a Creator is quite likely and that the Holy Spirit is part of the tri-une, almighty Creator God. New resolution for this statement so that you can understand me better: "Science proves the Holy Spirit is real."

All your rebuttals have been wasted because of your 1) ignorance, or 2) misunderstanding on my argument.

"Copi says that only evidence of something that exist or occurred is provable. And if it did actually occurred qualified investigators would like find some evidence of it."
The first video you posted is proof that there have been investigations on the events and occurrences and these investigations turned out positive and proving that the Christian's claim is true.

About the video you posted (speaking in tongues medical study proves), I do not see why it is faulty.

"There is nothing about that video that proves a holy spirit. Just a bunch of Third World Pakistanis adopting a practice historically shown to have slaughtered the same race of people."
There is nothing about that last sentence that explains how hundreds of people literally crash to the ground in seemingly trances, sometimes shaking violently and other times talking in Tongues. I extend my argument and wish you would please rebut.

Acts 2 you showed but did not point out anything worth talking about.

'1. There is no physical evidence or eyewitness testimony apart from the bible that this event really occurred. No one secular historian has ever produced authenic evidence this event took place."
Well obviously, because he's secular! And can you prove that the Bible is not made up of authentic journals that proves the writers are not eyewitnesses themselves? You have been dismissing that thought and moving onto ridiculing it's contents. Stop jumping to conclusions, please.

I went to 1:48 of that medical study video. Nothing but truth comes from those mouths. Is this investigation, run by real medics and scientists, not enough to prove it is not a language? And if you watched the whole thing, you would know why Anita says those syllables. BECAUSE it is HER language personally given to from the HOLY SPIRIT. The vid also pointed out how everybody has a different Tongue (a.k.a. Heart) Language.

"If God told man to write the Bible in his words and God told them to write "speaking in (human) languages", then why do Christians attribute speaking in (human) languages to babbling sounds? How come the Greek word for tongues in the Act chapter has the human meaning for human language--and not babble or an unknown word? An unknown word would be some convincing evidence that the babble Anita spoke was indeed the language of angels or God."
Think of your childhood when you were around 5 or 6 years old. When I was that age and I heard foreign languages, I would not know what they were saying and also laugh because it entered my brain as gibberish. It wasn't identifiable to me and are not to anyone who doesn't speak the language. You do not have a source for that Greek claim so I will wait on that.

"Is this not the sign of mental illness, for multiple people to invent an undecipherable phonetic ramble and not use an actual language? Not only is it lunacy, its a fraud, and its laughable."
You have proven my point. Approximately 77% of the American adult population are now labelled mentally crazy by you. First I ask you, why would all those people CARE or even bother creating a whole language, practicing speaking it, and then spending half their lives at church worshiping a figment of their imagination and posting YouTube videos about it? That's a huge "fraud." Second of all, I'd like to see you try to speak the way Anita did. If you can do that exactly show us all. Then what will be laughable?

My summary is that the Holy Spirit has not been disproven by you, so I hope you understand my argument better now so we can seriously debate.
RichardCypher

Con

1. You cannot feel or experience aliens or ghosts... all unlike the Holy Spirit therefore irrelevant to the subject.
1a. Pro is playing semantics. If someone claims they've been abducted & probed by aliens, the physical element is in play. I'm not arguing alien abductions are real but my original example--you can't prove the abduction happened to you. No evidence, no proof. That is the relevancy, Pro has not given any evidence by which we can test as proof.

2. The Bible can be figurative and still prove something, am I wrong?
2a. No, you're not wrong. But you missed my point. Figuratively my name is Richard Cypher and this figurative name only proves I'm a fan of the Sword of Truth series in which Richard Cypher aka Lord Rahl is the main character. Pro insist on saying things like " God's Word describes who/what the Holy Spirit is; this obviously doesn't just prove that the Holy Spirit is real" as if she actually proved something. Actually she simply stated something, she is confused that to prove something you must show physical or visual evidence the thing is what it is.

3. I want a rebuttal for my argument concerning that the Universe is evidence for the Holy Spirit and what do I get? A typical atheist answer: "Well, actually it literally proves matter exist--nothing else."
3a. The universe proves nothing except matter exist. There is no test out there that demonstrates this holy spirit thing created matter.
3. Let me ask you, how did the matter get there? It came out of thin air...oh wait, in the very beginning there WAS no air...hmm? The very fact that what I explained is true is proof that a Creator is quite likely and that the Holy Spirit is part of the tri-une, almighty Creator God.
3b. Vacuum State. "the vacuum state is not truly empty but instead contains fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that pop into and out of existence." http://en.wikipedia.org... Be sure to click on the sources Wiki cite. Quantum mechanics demonstrates matter, created by random electromagnetic particles, never ceases to exist by only keeps changing from solid to liquid to gas to liquid to solid and so forth. The vacuum state means electromagnetic particles have no creator, since they pop in and out of existence all the time. Are you willing to profess the holy spirit is at work, randomly causing particles to pop in and out of existence with no purpose? Scientists are working on a collider that can turn light into matter. http://www3.imperial.ac.uk... Once this is achieved, your holy spirit theory is dead, simply because this places humans as powerful as your alleged holy spirit power. Of course this has to be accomplished but the implications means if humans can do, it can naturally occur on it's own.

4. The first video you posted is proof that there have been investigations on the events and occurrences and these investigations turned out positive and proving that the Christian's claim is true.
4a. Nope. Top video, at 3:50-4:40 the experiment shows that the guy's frontal lobe--that control language--was active when he prayed in English, but when he prayed in that babble called tongues--his frontal lobe was mostly inactive. It proves he wasn't speaking a real language. Science proved his babble wasn't a real language because his brain wasn't actively interpreting it. So when people claim to understand that babble their lying because their frontal lobe is actually inactive, not even processing it because it CAN'T translate "blah, blah, blah" into any real words.

5. Acts 2 you showed but did not point out anything worth talking about.
5a. Let's test that shall we.

Tongues: Greek word #1100 glossa = a language (specially, one naturally unacquired)

When they spoke this tongue, everybody understood it, the Scripture lists 18 different languages that understood it AT ONCE! Not like today's so-called tongues where only another possessed person can think that he understands it. The Pentecostal Day (Acts ch. 2) tongues were heard and understood by all languages:

Acts 2:4-11
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
(KJV)

http://www.biblestudysite.com...

There you have your Greek word for tongue/languages and a Christian website claiming the "spoken tongues" were 18 different human languages.
5b. Man claims he can speak in tongues at random.
5c. Benny Hinn, a man of God, who uses the holy spirit to get rich on frauds
5d. Former Pentecostal Christian can still speak in tongues to God. MUST SEE
5e. Christian Pastor says Pentecostals are deceived and proves it with his bible. 15:00-17:25 and at 17:25 he explains Acts 2 just like the Christian website Biblestudysite.com, just like Shadow King's Trinity debate he won, just like many others.

6. First I ask you, why would all those people CARE or even bother creating a whole language, practicing speaking it, and then spending half their lives at church worshiping a figment of their imagination and posting YouTube videos about it? That's a huge "fraud." Second of all, I'd like to see you try to speak the way Anita did. If you can do that exactly show us all. Then what will be laughable?
6a. Benny Hinn, fraud-claims he talked to Jesus just like John in Revelation; Jim Jones, fraud-murdered his followers just to keep them from finding out he was a fraud; Creflo Dollar, fraud--claims God loves to give out money but isn't the "love of money the root of all evil", the list is long of Christians creating frauds, living them and teach them with no problem.
6b. Why the hell would I want to attempt to speak babble like Anita. The million dollar test of truth is this: If you can speak tongues, and tongues is the language of God, tell us what someone on one of these videos is saying, interpret it, and provide proof we can verify that's what is being said. Oh, but wait, you shall claim you can't speak tongues, or that person's tongues is not meant for you to know or you have no interest in that. You will come with anything that refuses to here and now demonstrate for an uncontested debate win that the holy spirit gave you the knowledge of what was said and the proof to glorify God right now in front of man.

Truth is, you're a semantics players. You bounce off words like "this is proof" and "I have proved" as if voters are so gullible to believe your a mere claim of proof is proving it is proof. wtf!!!
Debate Round No. 3
JasperFrancisShickadance

Pro

I will split Round 4 into three parts on my behalf. First I will rebut what you said, second rebuttal of your videos, third will be my conclusion.

PART 1

1a. If someone had been supposedly abducted by aliens would you believe it if there were over 5 witnesses all saying the same story? It's the same thing with the Holy Spirit but instead of over 5 people to testify, 2 billion.

2a. The Bible describes the way the Holy Spirit works in our lives, how he is our friend, and figuratively, God's Word proves that the events that occur within human beings' lives are truly caused by the Holy Spirit not their imagination. Frankly you're the one who missed my point.

3a. If you can find me an experiment done without human intervention that plainly proves how something can form from pure nothingness, this debate (and all God debates) are OVER. But this has NEVER been done and never will be done. Let me quote you: "Scientists are working on a collider that can turn light into matter. Once this is achieved, your holy spirit theory is dead, simply because this places humans as powerful as your alleged holy spirit power. Of course this has to be accomplished but the implications means if humans can do, it can naturally occur on it's own." Do you know what you are saying? I think the voters/readers can find the fault in this way of arguing without further ado.

4a. Now I see. This WHOLE debate you haven't known the purpose of the Holy Spirit or who He is at all! I recommend you watch the videos I posted just so you can have a better understanding. First of all, most say that speaking in Tongues is simply--as stated in the video YOU posted--a way the Holy Spirit gives us prayer, which we give as praise back to God. [2] [3]

"When they spoke this tongue, everybody understood it, the Scripture lists 18 different languages that understood it AT ONCE! Not like today's so-called tongues where only another possessed person can think that he understands it." This is more proof you don't know what you're talking about. Read this article and you might understand better [4]

Acts 2 is irrelevant to this because it is the Tower of Babel we are talking about here. [5]

5 and 6 a. I'm not going to bother venturing too far into my opponent's argument...

But to clarify--AGAIN--I must say that I was not referring to Benny Hinn or Jim Jones or Creflo Dollar, I was referring to the random followers of (Pentecostal) Christianity who believe whole-heartedly in the Holy Spirit. Read (6.) again.

6b. Exactly: you can't "babble" like Anita. If you knew what speaking in Tongues even meant, I wouldn't be having to go on about this. Every Christian who supposedly receives the Holy Spirit by speaking in Tongues of Men and Angels does not know what the Holy Spirit is flowing through them but knows that it is a unique language even though they cannot understand it.

PART 2

I don't see your point for showing the Lonnie Mackley video except that you were trying to show how you think the Holy Spirit sounds in a bad light--in other words, you did it to ridicule the man.

Benny Hinn was a real actual fraud but that is not what we are debating.

An atheist video to make atheists feel good...

I don't see your point for showing the video by ResotredCOG...

Did it ever come upon you that speaking in Tongues is not the only thing to shun here? I will not bother explaining exactly what I mean since there's not much more we can debate as this is supposed to be my last round. :(]

PART 3

The debate has been particularly a waste of time and I didn't appreciate my opponent's effort put into basically shunning the concept of a tri-God or Holy Spirit for 3 whole rounds. Yet somehow I have hope that voters will see my point of view and realize Con was wrong in a lot of areas, especially when accepting this debate (as he barely knew who the Holy Spirit was). In conclusion I will say that the Holy Spirit hasn't been refuted and I had to spend half the time explaining and retelling my case so my argument could only go so far.

Thank you, RichardCypher, for doing this with me and I say God bless for your last round.

SOURCES
[1] http://www.gotquestions.org...
[2] http://vimeo.com...
[3] http://www.cru.org...
[4] http://www.baptismintheholyspirit.org...
[5] http://www.scripturetruths.net...
RichardCypher

Con

I believe Pro believes her stuff but doesn't know how express them with dynamic clarity. As I continue to debunk her resolution I will also show her own debating confusion she caused.

A. "The debate has been particularly a waste of time and I didn't appreciate my opponent's effort put into basically shunning the concept of a tri-God or Holy Spirit for 3 whole rounds."

Pro never mandated that a Con should debate the topic with mutual agreement. So my position wasn't as supporter but as detractor. A1. " if I can prove the Trinity is real, I have more than proved my case." She couldn't even prove definitively what "tongues" is let alone prove 3 people as 1 person. It isn't my fault she doesn't know how to remain glued to her own proposition.

B. Now let's look at what her proposition was about. Her debate title is "The Holy Spirit is real".

Do we not first assume by this title the debate is about proving the holy spirit is real? Into it we find out she wants to prove the trinity is real. So she jumps from one thing (holy spirit) to three things (trinity). But never establishes a decisive piece of evidence that either is practical.


C. "Acts 2 is irrelevant..." " I'm not going to bother venturing too far into my opponent's argument..." "I don't see your point for showing the Lonnie Mackley video..." "I don't see your point for showing the video by..."

Pro's own statements show she can't distinguish fact from fiction. Let's look into this for utmost clarity.
1. TO PRESERVE WORD LIMITS I won't quote her directly for this point, read her R1. She claims the holy spirit is a "he" aka a "person". Now this is why Acts 2 is RELEVANT:
--there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind=According to her Bible, the HS sounds like wind, not a person
--it filled all the house=Can a person fill an entire house or can something like wind?
--as of fire, and one sat upon each of them=What is "as of fire"-a person or a thing? Do men aka "he(s)" sit on people's heads?
--they were all filled with the Holy Spirit=How are multiple persons filled with a person? Or can they be filled with something invisible like wind?
--And when this sound occurred=Twice her Bible calls the HS a "sound".
--I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh=Can you "pour out" a person on every living person?
--I will pour out My Spirit in those days=Hmmm? See Strong's definitions below.
https://www.biblegateway.com...
"Pour out"= Hebrew compound word ekcheó. Ek=out; cheó=poured. ekcheó is used 12 times in a literal sense. Each time it is used in a literal sense it was translated as "pour out" "poured out". See link and check out verses.
https://www.blueletterbible.org...

Why is Acts 2 relevant? Because it reveals the holy spirit not a he as Pro claimed but as an it, something sounding like wind. What is Acts relevant? Because it reveals multiple races with different languages speaking their own native tongue to other races while the other races understand them in their own language. German speaking German to Frenchman as the Frenchmen understands every German word in French. Why is Acts relevant? Because it reveals that "tongues" refer to human languages. Why is Acts relevant? Because it shows humans speaking in tongues understanding each other in real languages. My use of Acts by no means proves the holy spirit is real. My use proves: 1. Pro's defense of tongues being language of angels or a way to talk to God is fiction. There is not one reference in Acts 2 where the people are speaking to angels or God or said to be speaking the language of angels; 2. Pro can't interpret her religious story correctly, is it plausible she can prove something that sounds like wind is a person in a three tier relationship?

C2. "I don't see your point for showing the Lonnie Mackley video..."

A man rambling at random. He states I'm going to "speak in tongues" so he's said "I going to say something in tongues." But he never tells us WHAT HE SAID even though he specifically told us he was going to say something in tongues. What was it? But here's the billion dollar bullsh*t that Christians don't realize kills their credibility. As I showed "tongue" comes from the greek word "glossa" which means "language". Christians leave plural; Lonnie thus said "I'm going to speak in languages." But rambled off the same similar phonetic sounds. So are their several languages that phonetically sound exactly the same? Or did he bullsh*t us with his babble? Also, speaking involves literally the vocalization of established grammatical language words. Lonnie did not speak--as in with words, he rambled off sounds. Please understand that essential fact.

C3 "I don't see your point for showing the video by ResotredCOG"

Oh. Did not a Christian pastor thoroughly debunk WITH THE BIBLE speaking in tongues does not sound like gibberish but real human language? You didn't look at the video. He methodically broke down with your Bible what tongues is and isn't. Pro feels it's okay for her to use a Christian to support a biblical topic; but it isn't okay for anyone to use a Christian to discredit a biblical topic. So a devout Christian's beliefs are only valid to support biblical malarkey but a devout Christian's beliefs are invalid if they discredit biblical malarkey.
And they have the nerve to call Atheists illogical.

D. "The debate has been particularly a waste of time..."

Actually it wasn't. It showed us:
-- a Christian debater blindly expected us to blindly believe the holy spirit is real simply by stating it.
-- a Pro laying down a loosely thought-out resolution, believing it was ironclad with factual maxims.
-- a Con revealing that if one crucial belief in the Bible is shown blemished the whole house Christianity crumbles.

E. " In conclusion I will say that the Holy Spirit hasn't been refuted and I had to spend half the time explaining and retelling my case so my argument could only go so far."

You didn't prove the holy spirit real as claimed whereas I proved it cannot be proved real when Christians are divided upon is it a he or it; does it make you ramble out indistinguishable sounds or does it make you speak decipherable human words. You spent "half the time explaining and retelling" your case because you presented a factless, illogical argument based on your belief that proving the holy spirit as real was easy as saying look at those people there, they're happy, they have the holy spirit, the holy spirit is real, see I proved it. I have no doubt you are a sincere believer in your bible beliefs, but advertised for a debate on one, so I just gave you want I got to offer in opposition.
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
ing,
Posted by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
Okay. I see only 1 fair way to judge this--that is the 7 point way, since the Instigator didn't add any provisions.
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Since my definition of the Holy Spirit is based in a belief, I leaned toward Pro.
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Con won me at the beginning of R2 with his opening: "We read speculation, assumptions, and guesswork." Sadly, that's all Pro did.
Who had better conduct?
Con because Pro complained in R4 about this being a waste & tactfully Con responded: "You spent "half the time explaining and retelling" your case because you presented a factless, illogical argument based on your belief...the holy spirit is real, see I proved it. I have no doubt you are a sincere believer in your bible beliefs, but [you] advertised for a debate on one, so I just gave you want I got to offer in opposition." Dude didn't get shitty or cocky but stay in his element.
Who had better spelling and grammar?
I only do S&G if someone specifically request I judge that standard, on short debates, rap, poem & song debates, or when I see such horrible S&G. This debate doesn't call this vote into play.
Who made more convincing arguments?
Con by a mile. Demonstrating the contradicting beliefs Christians hold over the HS is nuclear effect against the validity of it's realness. Jarr'sereian aliens are purple in winter vs. Jarr'sereian aliens are colorless in November & December. Why the hell would I consider believing in Jarr'sereian aliens period if you can't get a consensus on their skin tone. Pro never got in the game, but refused, staying on the sidelines, believing she could simply tell the ball to go in the hoop & it would agree to.
Who used the most reliable sources?
Con. His sources forcefully supported his angle of argument: if Christians can't interpret "tongues" like the fellows did in the Bible as human languages, how is it logical to believe a super-intelligent God compels his followers to jabber hogwash with no mea
Posted by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
As a side note, you can't provide physical evidence for a spirit. You could probably construct a psychological experiment which tests and confirms the Bible's claims on it, but that's even then hypothetical.
Posted by JasperFrancisShickadance 2 years ago
JasperFrancisShickadance
I'm freekin 13 and yes, I love the Bible
Posted by JasperFrancisShickadance 2 years ago
JasperFrancisShickadance
@V-LR Have you ever read anything out of the Christian Bible? If you know about Christianity you would know that we believe in the Trinity (3 in 1), which is as follows: the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (or 'Ghost'). Each had/have different roles and have performed different happenings.

God can be known real if people actually want to learn, and if they open their eyes to reality. Reality - a sinful world. Humanity - a sinful nature. But Jesus came to pay the price for our sins and that's why us Christians believe He loves us. Besides that there is tons of evidence for Creationism. I can debate you if you want, but this is a different topic.

We are not God, so where did this statement (If "God" exists & is Omnipotent/ All-powerful, it would obviously be IMPOSSIBLE to "sin" (to violate a Commandment of "God" ) .) come from??
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 2 years ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
There's no way to prove or disprove these arguments.
Which means that none of you can Noob Snipe in this case.
(I could, but why would I want to ? )
Even if proving the existence of what you call "God" was possible,
which, as far as I can tell, isn't,
that obviously wouldn't prove the existence of what you call the "Holy Spirit" .
Atheists apparently don't believe in the existence of "God" ; the "Holy Spirit" isn't the same as "God" .
If "God" exists & is Omnipotent/ All-powerful,
it would obviously be IMPOSSIBLE to "sin" (to violate a Commandment of "God" ) .

ONCE AGAIN:
My name WASN'T Jesus-
I had a Hebrew name, apparently pronounced Yeshua.

It sure is good to be back & awake again.
Posted by Rational_Thought 2 years ago
Rational_Thought
Jasper, would you happen to be a pastor?? or are you just really into the whole bible study stuff?
Posted by n7 2 years ago
n7
*noob sniped
Posted by n7 2 years ago
n7
You're going to get Noob trapped.

I guarantee it.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
JasperFrancisShickadanceRichardCypherTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to prove that the Trinity is real by using the Bible. Con presented evidence from the Bible to show a misconception of speaking in tongues. I'm not sure how Pro would have proven the Holy Spirit, but I can only assume she meant through empirical evidence. Pro started with the assumption that the Holy Spirit is real, thus no debate can really be made.
Vote Placed by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
JasperFrancisShickadanceRichardCypherTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD