The Jewish People were mandate by God to reject Jesus as God or the messiah
Debate Rounds (3)
First, as per the New Testament, "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood"
As per the Law (Torah), sacrifices must be made in a certain manner to be acceptable to G-d. For example, Leviticus 17:4 says "instead of bringing it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to present it as an offering to the LORD in front of the tabernacle of the LORD--that person shall be considered guilty of bloodshed; they have shed blood and must be cut off from their people."
As per the New Testament, Jesus suffered outside the camp (Hebrews 13:2). As per Lev 17:4 anybody that offers a sacrifice outside the camp shall be put to death, thus it was not a valid sacrifice.
Secondly and more importantly, the Children of Israel were mandate not to worship other gods. As per Philippians 2:10, we should worship Jesus. But the Torah warns against worshipping other gods than YVHV (The LORD)
Deuteronomy 32:17 says:
They sacrificed to false gods, which are not God-- gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your ancestors did not fear.
Deuteronomy 13:16 says:
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,
In the time of Jesus nobody worshipped him as god. For example, Peter could have asked his father if they worshipped Jesus and they would have said no. The penalty for worshipping Jesus then should have been death.
Also, the Children of Israel were warned not to worship anything they have not seen at Mount Horeb (Sinai).
You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,... And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
The word Host (tsaba') is the same word use when G-d describes himself as the LORD of Host. It includes any physical and created being. Jesus, being a created man was not supposed to be worshipped as a god. Furthermore, the LORD explicitly said and that they did not see any form. Jesus has a form and so has a golden calf. Could G-d decided to embodied a golden calf? Could he have decided to embodied a man? The answer is yes and no. Yes because G-d could have done anything he wants, but NO because he said He would never do that! And G-d is not a man that he should lie. God is not a man and God is not a liar.
With all those warnings that were given to them, the Jewish people were right not to accept Jesus as their messiah nor accepting him as a god (tri-une god) or anything else.
Finally, if Jesus was anything lower than G-d, it would break the first commandment to worship him as the New Testament writer ask you to do: "You shall have no other gods before my face"
No where in the bible does the bible force the Jews to deny Jesus as God. In fact prophecies are found throughout the old testament declaring the coming of the messiah or in other words Jesus Christ. This was to prepare the people for his coming. http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org...
God does not mandate people to reject or accept anything. In the bible we learn that he gives us the choice to accept him as God or deny him as God therefore God did not force or order the Jews to deny Jesus and God. http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org...
To rebut your claims is easy. most of them are not referring to God or Jesus but sacrificial animals. God and Jesus are part of the trinity. To say that the Lord is not Jesus involves first proving that God is not triune in nature. So when we wroship God we worship Jesus as well. When we worship Jesus we worship God. http://www.everystudent.com...
So this disproves every thing you have said about worshiping other Gods since we know they are three in one . A trinity. Worshiping Jesus does not go against God or the bible. http://www.gospelway.com...
With all things rebutted I hand the debate back to you and look forward to your response.
Let just say that my opponent is right and see if my argument still stand. Deuteronomy 4: Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
Thus even if in heaven there would be a three gods unity. Deuteronomy 4 says "You saw no form" and don't worship anything you have not seen, Thus my argument stands. Worshipping a form or a host "Jesus" goes against Deuteronomy 4.
Furthermore, I would like to ask my opponent, could G-d incarnate a golden calf? Would it still be wrong to worship that golden calf? Yes, because G-d warned against worshipping any created thing, thus worshipping Jesus is wrong.
"prophecies are found throughout the old testament "
This is a vague statement, when we look at the prophecies in details Jesus did not fulfil any of them. The Messiah could not go against the Torah. By using vague claims and not looking at any scripture in context, my opponent justify his Idolatry. If my opponent wants a debate on any of those prophecies, I would accept the debate. But we do not have time to use "Jesus fulfilled 355 prophecies" argument. Please use concrete example to prove your point.
So in conclusion, because the disciple's parent did not know Jesus, he is a new arrival god. Worshipping created things goes against the Bible. Jesus atonement is not found in the Law, thus accepting Jesus atonement would be deviating to the right or to the left of what G-d say.
Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. Joshua 1:7
http://www.godandscience.org... Yes we should start a debate on this afterward. However since you accepted that in the case I am correct let's continue from there.
If the Lord is triune as I claim, and you accepted, then worshiping Jesus would Not be a problem. For they are one. Also worshiping Jesus is found in scripture which goes against what your saying. "Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!" (Psalm 2:12) The message is quite clear. http://www.godandscience.org...
Your argument about the calf does not make any sense. If God raised a calf from the dead it's a miracle but unless ordered why would we worship it? We are told in scripture to worship God. We are told to worship Jesus.
Hebrews chapter : "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."
Quite contradictory to what you are saying. And it is clear from prophecies found in scripture that Jesus was mentioned in the old testament. Genesis 3:15; 9:27; 12:2-3; 49:8-12; Numbers 24:15-19; and Deuteronomy 18:15-18. http://www.gordonconwell.edu...
You never did rebut my claim that God never specifically mandated against worshiping Jesus. While I gave concrete evidence supporting the worship of Jesus.
It is my belief that worshiping Jesus does not go against the word of God. I also believe it is clear that the people had clear warning about the coming of Jesus in the prophecies. For this reason vote con for I have shown you the multiple reasons why God supported the worship of Jesus both in the old testament and the old. My name is Brian N. Johnson and I thank you for reading.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by minddrag 8 months ago
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||1||6|
Reasons for voting decision: I was a small bit miffed about the mishap in the second round due to time constraints, but I thought it was a good debate. There were many sources used by both sides, but I believe that con won!
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.