The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
7 Points

The Joker is the Greatest Villain Ever.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/5/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,384 times Debate No: 26018
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (27)
Votes (2)




This debate is about whether or not The Joker is the greatest comic book villain ever......
1. Acceptance
2. Definitions/Presentation of Main Argument
3 & 4. Rebuttals
5. Resolution/Closing Argument

"You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't kill you, because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever." - The Joker


I would love to take your debate against Joker being the "Greatest [Comic Book] Villain Ever"

I assume that all comic books, movies, graphic novels and tv shows are allowed, really anything that proves our point.
Conversely, we can use any of those things to counter our opponents points as well.
Also, we can define "Greatest" however we want per each villain and let the voters decide which is "Greater Villian-ry" under whatever definition we want to give it.

I would like to posit a couple characters and you can decide which one I get to argue for.

First, I would like to try to argue directly against you and say that BATMAN himself is in fact that Greatest Villain Ever created.

(To the Joker) "Don't you understand? I don't want to hurt you. I don't want either of us to end up killing the other. But we're both running out of alternatives, and we both know it. Maybe it all hinges on tonight. Maybe this is our last chance to sort this whole bloody mess out. If you don't take it, then we're both locked onto a suicide course. Both of us. To the death. It doesn't have to end like that. I don't know what it was that bent your life out of shape, but who knows? Maybe I've been there too. Maybe I can help. We could work together. I could rehabilitate you. You needn't be out there on the edge anymore. You needn't be alone. We don't have to kill each other. What do you say?" - The Killing Joke

If you won't let me do that because you find it too absurd, (which I understand, because the moral implications of that are quite severe)

I would then argue that OZYMANDIAS is the Greatest Villain Ever.

"I don't mind being the smartest man in the world, I just wish it wasn't this one." - Ozymandias

But he's kind of a Anti-Hero/Anti-Villain when you really look at him, as opposed to Joker, who is a true villain (although, if you accept my argument that Batman is the villain, then Joker thereby becomes the Hero)

So, lastly, I will suggest that BRAINIAC is the Greatest Villain Ever.

"The Fewer Beings that have The Knowledge the more Precious it Becomes" - Superman: Animated Series, 'Stolen Memories'

However, Brainiac will be the hardest to argue for, and I think Batman would be the most fun. So take that into consideration and pick an opponent.

I look forward to the debate. Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1


After contemplating in my deeps thoughts, I have come to a decision you will be presenting Brainiac's case...........

villain- a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.

greatest- Of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.

ever- At any time.

Why The Joker is the superior villain-
What makes a villiain a villain?


Great villains are staggeringly powerful. In other words, they have a way of making things bend to their will. In fantasy stories this often takes the form of magical powers. Perhaps the villain is a mighty sorcerer or a fallen Jedi Knight. In some cases, though, the villain’s power lies in his resources. He may possess vast wealth and influence. Or he may have a highly trained army at his command.

In some cases, though, the villain’s power is less obvious. A classic literary archetype is the femme fatale: a woman who uses her charm to control those around her. Some villains posses keen acuity and cunning, which is far more dangerous than raw might.

Argument: The Joker exhibits this characteristic if you look at his influence over the small street gang called the Jokerz, they are a gang of criminal thugs working for the Joker in Gotham City.
In spite of his unstable manner, the Joker has always managed to find like-minded anarchists to enact his various schemes. Although not known for their intelligence, the Joker's streetgang thugs are known for their nihilistic outlook and borderline insanity, dressing up as clowns and circus people to associate themselves with their boss.


  • Joker
  • Harley Quinn
  • Lefty
  • Righty
  • Full House
  • Joker Anarchist
  • Hiding Schizo
  • Jokandroid
  • Joker Dawg
  • Deranger
  • Lunatic
  • Madcap
  • Joker Stooge
  • Wag
  • Wisecracker
  • J1N1
  • Cut Up
  • Drool

  • Joker's Flying Jester
  • Joker's Trick Pistol
  • Joker's Confetti Bomb
  • Clown Nose
  • Monitor Propolusion Pack
  • Joker's Punchline (Style)
  • Psycho (Style)
  • Jester (Style)
  • Joker Van


Effective villains are intelligent. This does not necessarily mean that they are intellectually gifted. Rather, it means that they avoid making stupid decisions.

New writers sometimes make the error of crafting villains who are so drunk with ambition that they make dumb moves. While such a character may make for an entertaining caricature, he or she is not a compelling villain. A truly great villain is always two steps ahead of the hero, and carefully considers every option.

This does not mean that they are above making mistakes. Otherwise they would be undefeatable. But they certainly don’t make the obvious ones. Great villains pose a real challenge for the hero, and they do so by being on top of their game.

Argument: The Joker is a genius at planning and improvising criminal activities. He is incredibly intelligent and calculating, always staying one step ahead of everyone else, including Batman (for a while) and the police. His unique (if rather disturbed) worldview, as well as the complete mystery surrounding his identity also give him something of an edge. Having no connections, friends, former identities or family to be traced back to makes him very difficult to predict, track down, or even understand.


True villains are immoral. This is what makes them villains. It’s not that they lack a sense of right or wrong. On the contrary, villains often subscribe to a moral code. But they are willing to violate accepted moral principles in order to accomplish their goals.

A prime example is Lord Voldemort from the Harry Potter series. He knows that he has violated every principle of human decency. Yet he justifies his actions by saying that they are “for the greater good.” Fulfilling his vision of the ideal social order is so important that, in his mind, it necessitates doing terrible things.

This is a common theme with many great villains. They believe so strongly in the rightness of their own cause that they no longer see the normal standards of moral conduct as applying to them.

Argument: There are many situations throughout the history of DC Comics in which The Joker implies his distorted view of morality onto his victims............. I will list a few:

Barbara Gordon/Batgirl
The daughter of Commisioner Gordon had hung up her bat suit and decided to proceed with her own life. She was having coffee with her father one evening, discussing the Joker's recent escape from Arkham Asylum. The door bell rang. Thinking it was a friend, Barbara opened the door without checking the peep hole. She recognized the Joker a split second before he shot her in the midsection. He then proceded to remove her clothing and take several pictures of her decrepit state while sipping a glass of wine. Barbara was found by a neighbour and rushed to hospital. The doctored bullet had blown away a section of her spine and despite the best medical treatment,she was pronounced paralyzed from the waist down. Perhaps the hardest part of Barbara's ordeal was that she was shot as the daughter of Gotham's Police Chief, not Batgirl. Despite all her efforts to stop crime, she was still better known as the commisioner's kid. Barbara eventually adapted to life in a wheelchair and, using her computer and librarian skills, became the all knowing Oracle. She is presently working with Black Canary to stop any and all kinds of international crime.

Dick Grayson/ Robin I/ Nightwing
The first Robin and Batman were pursuing the Joker after his escape from Arkham. They eventually cornered him on a rooftop and prepared to bring him in. The Joker pulled a gun and shot Robin through the upper right arm before either hero could react. While the wound was not all that serious, it made Batman question the wisdom of putting Dick in dangerous situaltions as his sidekick. He resolved his dilemma by telling Dick he could no longer be Robin. Dick was devestated and left on a sort of journey of self discovery. After a stint as leader of the Teen Titans, he eventually became Nightwing. While he and Bruce have managed to patch things up, there is still tension between them. Who knows what road Dick's life might have taken had the Joker not made his mortality painfully clear.

Commisioner James Gordon
The Gotham City Police Commisioner was having a pleasant evening with his daughter when the Joker came in a put a hole in her. After allowing Gordon to get a good look at his daughter lying on the floor, bleeding, the Joker and his gang hauled him off to an abandoned amusement park. After stripping him of his dignity (along with his clothing), the Joker took him on a special ride. The ride through the funhouse consisted of various pictures of a naked, bleeding Barbara and an inane song of the Joker's. The point of this exercise was to drive Gordon crazy proving to the world that "ordinary people" and the Joker were not all that different. The plan failed. When the Batman rescued Gordon, the commisioner ordered that he bring in the Joker by the book, "to show him that our way works" The Caped Crusader obliged. This incident is one of the many example of how the Joker has made Jim's life a trial.

In conclusion, it is evident that the Joker is the only enemy of Batman that can put up a good fight....... And Jokers magnitude in immorality, power, and intelligence make him a pretty good villian..... Let's see Pro's argument......



I want to thank my opponent for selecting BRAINIAC, who I described as the hardest to argue for... this should be fun.

Since I can use any form of I wish (comic books, movies, and tv shows), I will be focusing on the DCAU version of Brainiac.

Brainiac, in his form from the DCAU, was ranked by Wizard Magazine as the 94th Greatest Villain of All Time.
But since you have such characters as Mr. Burns from The Simpsons (ranked 45th), Principal Ed Rooney from Ferris Bueller's Day Off (ranked 57th) and the Hillbillies from Deliverance (ranked 27th)... I have to argue that ranking are often more based on popularity than actual villainry.

But since my opponent didn't specify anywhere in his statement that popularity among fans was a criteria for Greatness as a Villain, I hope we can overlook the fact that Brainiac in his form from the DCAU isn't as popular as the Joker in any of his incarnations and look strictly at the characters themselves.

When you look at the character itself, BRAINIAC is GREATEST VILLAIN EVER.

An introduction to Brainiac;

Brainiac was the supercomputer that basically ran Krypton prior to it's demise. It's goal was to gain as much knowledge as possible. Brainiac came to the conclusion that once the knowledge was gained, it should be cataloged and destroyed. Brainiac could tell what was coming on Krypton, the same as Jor-El (Superman's biological father), but when Jor-El went to tell the Elders of Krypton, Brainiac deliberately deceived them. His reason? "The Fewer Beings that have The Knowledge the more Precious it Becomes". In that effect, Krypton became the first planet that Brainiac destroyed. He would go on to destroy many more, before eventually coming to Earth.

So for starters

(1) Extents of Power: Brainiac has DESTROYED entire worlds. There is a very short list of Super villains who have completed this task. So, in terms of power, this puts Brainiac on the same level (in power) as Galactus, Thanos, and Darkseid. He is a computer system that can reproduce himself, making multiple clones and more expansive than any other villain. In the DCAU, multiple superheros have had to go to the very extents of their power just to neutralize him. Flash, for example had to go faster than he has ever gone before and almost got entirely absorbed into the Speed Force... Superman always has to pull out all his guns to defeat him, and he would have single-handily defeated the entire Justice League if not for Martian Manhunter's intangibility. No other villain is such a threat in power to as many super heroes. Additionally, he doesn't require the allegiance of minions. Besides his own means, he only twice uses the assistance of other super villains, in Darkseid and Lex Luthor, where he uses them as a means to an end. And to top that all off, he has a 12th Level Intellect... the most intelligent being in the Universe

(2) Making people comprise: One of the greatest aspects of a villain is when they can make people compromise their overall ideals. Brainiac does this time and again when people fear his power and also the guilt of his foes in the actions that they were required to take to overcome him.

In the episode (Twillight of the Gods) Superman helps Darkseid, the equivalent of Thanos, who will be the main villain in Avengers 2. Darkseid, the same villain who caused Batman to use a Gun (against his modus operandi) and matyr himself in the process of defeating. Brainiac caused Superman (and the Whole Justice League)to JOIN this Villain, because of the implication of his power.

In the episode (Alive!) Lex Luthor, Superman's greatest foe, Comparable to how Joker is to Batman. He would never compromise anything to stop in his conquest of Earth or defeating Superman... However, when Lex gets a taste of Brainiac, he forgoes all wordly desires. Lex spends all his time, money and power and obtaining Brainiac'sknowledge and power. He becomes fixated. He no longer cares about Superman. He no longer cares about worldly things. His only desire is for Brainiac. Quite an effect he has on people.

Lastly, he convinces the Justice League to disband.
(After defeating Brainiac/Lex Luthor) "This is the hardest thing I've ever had to say: I'm guilty, we're guilty of the sin of hubris. We had the best of intentions to be Earth's guardians, to keep you safe, but we failed you. We look down at the world from our tower in the sky, and let our power and responsibility separate us from the very people we were suppose to protect. No one should ever be afraid of us. For that reason, we're decommissioning the Watchtower. The energy weapon up there is already gone. We're taking down the station as well.There's more. We want to thank the members of the Justice League for your courageous service, but in the future, you'll all have to act as independent agents. We're not going to be an army anymore. As of right now, we're disbanding the Justice League. This is the end." - Superman "Divided We Fall"
What other super villain has made the Justice League desire to disband?

(3) Morality: Most villains, although they are for sure villainous; are they EVIL.
- Joker wants to show that everything is chaos. It's easy to go crazy
- Darkseid wants to create the perfect world by eliminating free will
- Two-Face wants everything to be chance, fair
- Ra's Al Ghul wants to destroy so that it can be rebuilt
- Magneto wants to bring in the reign of the superior Mutants
These are all things that aren't really that evil when you look at them... insane, maybe, but EVIL... I'm not so sure.
Brainiac on the other hand;
- He just wants knowledge... he wants it all; once that is complete, he wants everything to be destroyed
There's no greater good...
that's what Brainiac desiresand he may have the power to accomplish it

In dialogue between Brainiac and Lex Luthor

Brainiac: I will record your information, then destroy the original.
Lex Luthor: Say you succeed. You absorb all the information on Earth and destroy it. Then what?
Brainiac: I repeat the process across the entire universe until I have recorded all knowledge and destroyed all of creation.
Lex Luthor: And then?
Brainiac: Then my programming is complete. My function is fulfilled.
Lex Luthor: If you possess all information, you're a god.
Brainiac: My program will be complete. It is the end of all things.

That is what Brainiac desires. To destroy the Universe. There really is nothing more Evil than that. There is no good way to look at it. At the same time, it is understandable that a computer could have such a mission.

It's clear that there can be no more villainous creation. There is no one who has more power, is more evil and is more capable of hitting everyone, villains and heroes alike, so at home that they compromise their morals and ideals. This is why BRAINIAC is the GREATEST VILLAIN EVER.

Thanks for the debate... Go Go Gadget Rebuttal!
Debate Round No. 2


I concede.

You win.


I'm kinda disappointed... maybe next time we can do a "which one is the real bad guy... Batman or the Joker?"
Debate Round No. 3



I would lose lol.


That's too bad, I hope you enjoyed the round nonetheless.
Debate Round No. 4


Well maybe the next debate I will do is Superman vs. The Hulk.

Anyways, Vote Con.


That is a good one... they kinda answered it in DC vs Marvel... Superman won, but that was done by fan votes. So take that for what it's worth
Debate Round No. 5
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by orka1987 3 years ago
although im a marvel guy, i hav to admit that joker is evil. play injustice and youll see.
Posted by Lion 3 years ago
Who would win- joker vs carnage?
Posted by emospongebob527 4 years ago
Yea, I don't understand it lol
Posted by One_Winged_Rook 4 years ago
umm.. they did that too in DC vs Marvel.... thor won

besides that... Joker =/= Batman.. especially not in their "villainry"

you could argue for either one, but by no way are they equal

(I don't think spongebob was saying who would win in a fight, Joker vs. whoever, just which was the Greater Villain in the terms on what set [morals, tactics, effect on society..etc])

Batman has really only ever "lost" two fights... Bane broke his back (Knightfall) and when Darkseid hits him with the Omega Sanction (Final Crisis). His always considered losing Robin (Jason Todd) to the Joker (Death in the Family) his greatest failure. Batman really can't be beaten by anyone. He even "beats" Superman (Hush Vol. 1) with a little help from Catwoman. Although Batman does admit that Superman has the power to destroy him, he says that Superman is too good of a person and is unable to.

"Deep down, Clark's essentially a good person... and deep down, I'm not." - Batman - 'Hush Vol 1. The Battle'
Posted by emospongebob527 4 years ago
Gosh me and my Dad waste hours a day debating about superhero fights lol
Posted by emospongebob527 4 years ago
I'm really tempted to make a debate: Thor vs. Captain Marvel.
Posted by Maikuru 4 years ago
@tvellalott: Truth.
Posted by emospongebob527 4 years ago
Posted by tvellalott 4 years ago
Joker == Batman
Batman > Oxymandias

Thus, Joker > Ozymandias.
Posted by emospongebob527 4 years ago
Me Gusta Troll Face wins.....................

2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by JorgeLucas 4 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: forfeit
Vote Placed by 16kadams 4 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: FF