The Instigator
James.ticknor
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
JBlake
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

The KKK will likely initate plans to assassinate President Obama.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/15/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,021 times Debate No: 8640
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (3)

 

James.ticknor

Pro

First of all, I would like to inform the audience that I am in no way, shape, or form a racist. I was struck by this question on a foriegn talkshow actually.

I will begin by opening with observations, followed by points.

Observation 1: The resolution does not say definately whether or not they will, but the probability.

Observation 2: Even if they do not carry out their plans, they would still formulate one.

Observation 3: The KKK refers to any member of the Koon Klutz Klan, from an initiate to a kingpen.

CONTENTION 1:

It is quite obvious that the KKK's infamy comes from the fact that many, if not all, hate blacks. They do not nessicarily just hate African Americans, but every black, so I will use the word 'black' in reference to anyone in the world whose skin is darker than a creamy tan color. As our commander in chief, they are operating under the authority of a black president. This president has major influence over their way of life, and it is probable that the KKK will want to regain their way of life.

CONTENTION 2:

There has already been hypathetical assassination plots, but plots nontheless.

"www.americablog.com/2008/10/kill-him.html"

I will now await my opponents response.
JBlake

Con

I would like to thank James Ticknor for providing me with the opportunity to debate this most interesting of topics.

Since no such organization as the 'Koon Klux Klan' exists, and it seems clear by the context that Pro means the 'Ku Klux Klan' I will respond under the assumption that me means the Ku Klux Klan.

As usual, I reserve the right to offer further arguments in later rounds should the necessity arise.

=======

I negate the resolution, that the KKK will likely initiate plans to assassinate President Obama.

I offer the following points to negate the resolution:

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1. RECRUITMENT
The presidency of Barack Obama has resulted in a boost in recruitment for the KKK. We can deduce from the 'Obama Recruitment Drives" immediately following the election and beyond that the KKK leadership views Obama as a useful recruiting tool. If he were to be assassinated then recruitment would decline because a)there would no longer be a black president b) a large-scale crackdown on the KKK would result when it is found out that the KKK was involved (numbers tend to thin when members are in prison). This latter point is an important consideration of which the KKK membership would certainly be aware.

2. IDEOLOGY
As Raphael Ezekial explores in his book The Racist Mind, most white supremacist organizations, especially the KKK view Jews as the problem, not the blacks. Of course they hate both groups, but they view blacks as the unwitting pawns of a shadow jewish elite plot at world domination (through banking and other currency controls). For this reason they would be more likely to welcome his presidency as a boon to recruitment. They will spew anti-Obama propaganda, but they will save the bulk of their activities for the perceived culture war against the jews.

3. TERRORISM
Such a plot would certainly qualify as domestic terrorism. The KKK membership is aware of this fact and take great steps to stay off of the terrorist lists of the government and intelligence agencies.

=======

Any assassination attempt or plot against Barack Obama would likely come from one crazy and unstable person. The KKK has, and is aware that is has, much to lose by participating in an attempt to assassinate a U.S. President.

I look forward to Pro's response.
Debate Round No. 1
James.ticknor

Pro

My opponent is correct, that is what I was referring to as the KKK. I apologize for the miscommunication.

____________________

My opponent stated that, "The presidency of Barack Obama has resulted in a boost in recruitment for the KKK." This even furthers the likelyhood of an assassination attempt on Obama's life. He made the arguement that he is a useful tool in recruitment. While this is a very compelling statement, I belive that there are reasons to make this negligable.

1. The KKK's goal is not to use blacks to their advantage, but rather exterminate them and clense the world's populace.
2. They will not have him live for the sole reason of recruitment. While they may use him as this for a time, there will eventually make a plan to assassinate him. Like I said, their claim to fame is racial hatred and violence, not tactical recruitment.

My opponent stated: If he were to be assassinated then recruitment would decline because a)there would no longer be a black president b) a large-scale crackdown on the KKK would result when it is found out that the KKK was involved (numbers tend to thin when members are in prison).

I will rebutt as follows:

1. RECRUITMENT
a) Recruitment would not decline because of one black man's death. Not only that, but it would serve as a revolutionary movement for them saying, "We can change the world." Because that is their goal. To eradicate the world of it's impurties as they see fit.
b) You are saying that this is a garentee when it is not. An operation of this magnitude would require their best thinkers. It would be logical to assume that the assassin(s) would committ sucide, then where would we be?

I find that this particular arguement had a thin thread to connect to the resolution. Be careful not to stray from it. However it is still relevant and I have answered it effectively.

2) IDEOLOGY
a) "most white supremacist organizations, especially the KKK view Jews as the problem, not the blacks."--That's not true, the KKK hate blacks. I have never heard of them hating Jews. If they do, it's not on a larger scale. Even so, the KKK's primary objective is not Jews.
b) "For this reason they would be more likely to welcome his presidency as a boon to recruitment." --I highly doubt it. An organization this large doesn't need an asset like Obama for recruitment, especially with racism nowadays.

3. TERRORISM
a)"Such a plot would certainly qualify as domestic terrorism. The KKK membership is aware of this fact and take great steps to stay off of the terrorist lists of the government and intelligence agencies."---Not always. I think that they would wiegh the two.

1. The KKK being under a black leader.
-----vs-------
2. The KKK being under a white leader and on the CIA's list.

Besides, they have been an issue with the federal government for years, but they have not been able to be defeated by the government. On a side note, neither has the Mafia.

""Any assassination attempt or plot against Barack Obama would likely come from one crazy and unstable person. The KKK has, and is aware that is has, much to lose by participating in an attempt to assassinate a U.S. President.""

To this I say that every member of the KKK is suffering from irration racial hatred and is crazy and unstable. They have killed people before, and that is terrorism.

I notice that MY OPPONENT DID NOT CLASH with my contentions. I must ask you to in the next round, since you are CON and have the burdon of clash.

Good luck.
JBlake

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for the rapid response and apologize for the delay in my own.

=======

Pro bases his second round response on the flawed argument that since he has not heard of the KKK's ideology of antisemitism that it must not be true. Surely, he claims, the KKK hold an extreme hatred toward black above all others because he (Pro) has not heard anything otherwise.

Unfortunately, not being knowledgeable about a subject does not make someone correct. I provided a well known and very reliable source (Raphael Ezekial, The Racist Mind, (Michigan: Viking Press, 1995). Since this was evidently not enough for Pro I will provide some web sources which are easier to access than books:
http://www.kkk.bz... - this is one of many articles including snippets of their views.
http://en.wikipedia.org... - look specifically at the 'Jewish Supremacism section.
http://www.adl.org...

-------

I can provide many more sources should my opponent request them. I can also pull out specific quotations from the Ezekiel book should they be requested (the book is at home and I am running out of time to respond).

Of course, the Klan does save a great deal of hatred for blacks, but by far they believe their biggest threat to be the jews. As I mentioned in the first round, they believe there the jews are trying to assimilate whites and to ultimately destroy all non-jews. As Ezekiel uncovers in his book, most KKK organizations (KKK are not one united, national group, but many splinter factions) believe blacks to be irrelevant. They see them as pawns of the 'jewish power' to inflict violence on and absorb the hatred of White America (Part 1: Ch. 1; Part 2 Ch. 6; 8).

Some of the KKK organizations point at the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' (though it has already been proven a forgery) as evidence of such a jewish plot (http://books.google.com..., Pg. 28; http://books.google.com... Pg. 418).

With that out of the way, I will respond to Pro's rebuttals.

==============

RECRUITMENT
Pro claims that the increased recruitment resulting from Obama's election makes it more likely that a plot will arise. He also makes the somewhat erroneous assertion that the goal of the KKK is to exterminate blacks. This is generally untrue, although individual members may have these goals, the organizations themselves do not. Their main goal is to "reinstate" a white supremacy over this region of the globe. Most would prefer blacks would go back to Africa. This stems from their views on race and purity. They believe the races are inherently different and should never mix. They don't want to see whole races exterminated per se, they just want them separated.

Pro claims that recruitment would not decline because of one black man's death. However, the importance of that man (President of the U.S.) would certainly cause the government to crackdown on the KKK. Pro counters that such a display of power would result in a boost in recruitment. He then asserts that the KKK would never admit to the assassination, even going so far as to having the assassin commit suicide after. This is a contradiction. They cannot simultaneously show their ability to "change the world" and hide the fact that they have done so. More importantly, the resulting crackdown on the KKK leadership would be sufficient to dissuade new members from joining in large numbers; and enough to persuade current members into abandoning the organization.

--------

IDEOLOGY
As mentioned above, just because Pro has not heard of the KKK's ideology does not make it true. I have provided source in both round to back up my claim and Pro has not.

-------

TERRORISM
Certainly in weighing the two options the KKK would choose for their organization to continue to exist at the same or more power that they currently possess.

Pro claims that the KKK and gov't have been at odds for years. The KKK have indeed been under surveillance and many leaders have been arrested or forced to step down as a result. The assassination of a U.S. President would be the final push for the government to take more drastic action.

======

Pro claims in R2 that the KKK have killed before, and that is terrorism. However, individual acts of homicide do not constitute terrorism, nor is an individual act of homicide analogous to a conspiracy to assassinate the U.S. President. One is the unapproved action of an individual member, the other is a sanctioned plot by the organization.

======

"CLASH"
I'm not sure what Pro means by the "Burden of Clash." I will assume that he means that I need to respond to his R1 contentions. I will do so below:

Contention 1
I have responded to this already. Certainly some members hate blacks, especially in the southern states. However, many more view them as largely irrelevant. They would rather have them all move to a different region or (better yet) a different continent.

More importantly, most KKK members and organizations are at odds with the U.S. government. As Ezekiel shows, and I have claimed, they believe the government is secretly run by a powerful shadow jewish elite. Therefore, they would not particularly care who is the current figurehead (their belief, not mine).

Contention 2
The hypothetical plot claimed by Pro is really just one supporter of Sarah Palin saying "kill him" during one of Palin's events. This can hardly be considered an assassination plot. It would be an even greater stretch to claim that this was said by a member of the KKK.
Debate Round No. 2
James.ticknor

Pro

James.ticknor forfeited this round.
JBlake

Con

It is unfortunate that my opponent was unable, for whatever reason, to post an argument in the final round. That means he failed to provide an argument at all in support of his resolution. On the other hand, I have provided several reasons why the resolution may be negated.

I urge the audience to vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
I don't think that debate works that way (burden of clash, as you say it). I can certainly come up with several instances when one could concede a point or two without conceding the entire topic.
Posted by James.ticknor 7 years ago
James.ticknor
Summer camp...heh. The burdon of clash is where I have to contend with every single one of your points. If I miss one, or do not suffiecently answer it, I automatically lose.
Posted by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
What is a 'burden of clash'?
Posted by James.ticknor 7 years ago
James.ticknor
Heh, I'm kinda red. As for wjelements, I stated the KKK in the resolution. While I would have conceded to your point, I don't think that voting odds would have swung over to you.
Posted by studentathletechristian8 7 years ago
studentathletechristian8
I just can't believe Ticknor thought it was "Koon Klutz Klan." I find it very humorous.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
If I would have taken it, I would have argued that there is no Koon Klutz Klan around to plot such an occasion.
Posted by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
He knows there is a KKK. WJM was just pointing out that it is 'Ku Klux Klan' and not 'Koon Klutz Klan'. No problems though, I knew what you were talking about.
Posted by James.ticknor 7 years ago
James.ticknor
Well however they spell it. And if you are reffering to there bing no KKK, then you're wrong.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
There is no such thing as the "Koon Klutz Klan".
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
James.ticknorJBlakeTied
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Vote Placed by Itsallovernow 6 years ago
Itsallovernow
James.ticknorJBlakeTied
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Vote Placed by JBlake 7 years ago
JBlake
James.ticknorJBlakeTied
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