The Kingdom Of God Is A Tribulation
Debate Rounds (5)
But, Scripture refutes this. Philippians 2:12-13 says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." What this means is that when we are living holy lives in the Kingdom, it is ultimately God who is working in us. We should note that both the believer and God share a common goal in the working out of salvation: it is for God's good pleasure.
Furthermore, Matthew 6:33 says, "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
Therefore, given that a) through regeneration our deepest desire is to do what God wants and b) seeking the kingdom/God's righteousness leads to provision, kingdom life is not a tribulation.
Furthermore the assertion that " our deepest desire is to do what God wants " is misleading due to a misconception of the premise; God wants us to be happy and gives us the tools to that end; But working on faith against a seamingly mad world is a tribulation.
The assertion "our deepest desire is to do what God wants" is not misleading in any sense. Nor is it based on a misconception of the premise that "God wants us to be happy and gives us the tools to that end." I disagree with that statement. Happiness in the Christian life is found in God himself, he does not give us the tools to find it elsewhere.
My opponent says "working on faith in a seemingly mad world is a tribulation." I must ask, where is the biblical evidence for this? The Bible points in the opposite direction. God, and King of kings and Lord of lords, is sovereign over everything. He controls all events. As a Christian faith in him leads to existential resolve, not tribulation
My interpretation of the evidence in the Bible is that God gave me the tools in the New Testament to forge a new reality for myself. Battling my ego is my biggest task in The Kingdom Of God because the ways of God are not my ways and my ego surely rebels.
The Bible asks us to "Be in the world but not of it", this ties in with 'suffering fools gladly'.
There is some evidence of God allowing autonomy of His subjects within His control; 'Free will', for example, to pursue goals that may conflict with popular expectations. The proof of this is that the Ten Commandments are Old Testament and superseded by the New Testament.
My faith in the tools provided by the New Testament to overcome adversaries lead to my existential resolve, but the journey meanwhile is a tribulation.
"Fear and trembling" doesn't equate with "tribulation." We "work out our own salvation (not tribulation) with fear and trembling." This is a working out of the salvation that has been brought to us and nothing in the context hints at tribulation.
You contradict yourself when you say "God allowing autonomy of His subjects within His control." If we are subjects in His kingdom, then we by definition are not autonomous. To be autonomous is to create our own laws. But as Christians, we are follow a King and obey his laws and commands.
See Ps 1:2; Rom 7:12
"To be autonomous is to create our own laws." We are autonomous in the choice of whether to obey laws and whether or not to test the authority and work towards a new paradigm.
"..I could use those tools to forge a reality in which my position is true."
In bucking any system we counter a reality which something has forged to be a truth. Successfully bucking a system brings the system's truth into question, even to the point of proving it false. Thru hearsay some accept that Jesus actually walked upon water, and the laws that we obey naturally come as second nature. In questioning whether the Bible is a falsified document at best and if the laws we abide by as second nature are erroneously based we can forge a reality closer to our understanding of truth, until something comes along to prove otherwise.
In regards to your last paragraph: if what you said is true, then what I said still stands. I can forge a reality closer to my understanding of truth, a reality where I am right and you are wrong. Your argument collapses on itself.
Hebrews 12:26-29 makes it clear that we have received a kingdom that cannot be shaken. Note especially, verse 26 and 27, that say God is removing the things that can be shaken. The removal/tribulation is for the wicked (Rom. 2:9). But it doesn't shake.
It seems we have (somewhat) come to an agreement on the fear and trembling of Phil. 2:12-13. However it is not just for The Quakers and Shakers, it is for all believers. And it is not sporadic, ecstatic, craziness. It is a fear and trembling that is normative to all relationships between God and his covenant people.
1) my opponent conceded (in some measure) to my argument from Phil. 2:12-13
2) Pro's contention that we can forge a reality for ourselves is highly subjective. Pro essentially admitted that I could forge a reality where I am right and Pro is wrong. He did not refute.
3) My argument from Heb. 12:26-29 was not addressed.
4) Pro's autonomy argument was without biblical evidence, and I provided evidence to refute.
In sum: a) that God is in control b) the kingdom can't shake c) God is king, and we are his subjects, therefore excluding autonomy, the kingdom is not a tribulation.
No votes have been placed for this debate.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.