The Instigator
Burls
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
djdipretoro
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Kingdom Of God Is A Tribulation

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/19/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 452 times Debate No: 61994
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

Burls

Pro

Given that God's ways are not our ways, things will not go our way when we enter the Kingdom of God; This is a tribulation.
djdipretoro

Con

Given that your opening to this argument is very vague, it is hard for me to know where to start. As far as I can tell, you are saying that life in the kingdom of God will be rough because God's ways are not our ways.
But, Scripture refutes this. Philippians 2:12-13 says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." What this means is that when we are living holy lives in the Kingdom, it is ultimately God who is working in us. We should note that both the believer and God share a common goal in the working out of salvation: it is for God's good pleasure.
Furthermore, Matthew 6:33 says, "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
Therefore, given that a) through regeneration our deepest desire is to do what God wants and b) seeking the kingdom/God's righteousness leads to provision, kingdom life is not a tribulation.
Debate Round No. 1
Burls

Pro

The contention of: Philippians 2:12-13 says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." does nothing to dispel the argument that The Kingdom Of God is a tribulation.

Furthermore the assertion that " our deepest desire is to do what God wants " is misleading due to a misconception of the premise; God wants us to be happy and gives us the tools to that end; But working on faith against a seamingly mad world is a tribulation.
djdipretoro

Con

Simply stating that my contention from Philippians 2:12-13 "does nothing to dispel the argument," in fact "does nothing to dispel [my] argument." My opponent has not provided evidence or a different interpretation of this passage to show how my contention fails. Therefore, my contention still stands.

The assertion "our deepest desire is to do what God wants" is not misleading in any sense. Nor is it based on a misconception of the premise that "God wants us to be happy and gives us the tools to that end." I disagree with that statement. Happiness in the Christian life is found in God himself, he does not give us the tools to find it elsewhere.

My opponent says "working on faith in a seemingly mad world is a tribulation." I must ask, where is the biblical evidence for this? The Bible points in the opposite direction. God, and King of kings and Lord of lords, is sovereign over everything. He controls all events. As a Christian faith in him leads to existential resolve, not tribulation
Debate Round No. 2
Burls

Pro

Apparently the " fear and trembling" in your example doesn't equate with you as a "tribulation". The evidence that supports my contention to your contention of my premise is in the dictionary under "tribulation".

My interpretation of the evidence in the Bible is that God gave me the tools in the New Testament to forge a new reality for myself. Battling my ego is my biggest task in The Kingdom Of God because the ways of God are not my ways and my ego surely rebels.

The Bible asks us to "Be in the world but not of it", this ties in with 'suffering fools gladly'.

There is some evidence of God allowing autonomy of His subjects within His control; 'Free will', for example, to pursue goals that may conflict with popular expectations. The proof of this is that the Ten Commandments are Old Testament and superseded by the New Testament.

My faith in the tools provided by the New Testament to overcome adversaries lead to my existential resolve, but the journey meanwhile is a tribulation.
djdipretoro

Con

"My interpretation of the evidence in the Bible is that God gave me the tools in the New Testament to forge a new reality for myself." If that is the case, then I could use those tools to forge a reality in which my position is true. From what you have said, God gives us the tools to forge a reality. Therefore someone could take those tools and forge any reality they want to, if indeed it is "for [themselves]." So your position falls.

"Fear and trembling" doesn't equate with "tribulation." We "work out our own salvation (not tribulation) with fear and trembling." This is a working out of the salvation that has been brought to us and nothing in the context hints at tribulation.

You contradict yourself when you say "God allowing autonomy of His subjects within His control." If we are subjects in His kingdom, then we by definition are not autonomous. To be autonomous is to create our own laws. But as Christians, we are follow a King and obey his laws and commands.
See Ps 1:2; Rom 7:12
Debate Round No. 3
Burls

Pro

The contention is that fear and trembling is not consistent with a state of tribulation.

"To be autonomous is to create our own laws." We are autonomous in the choice of whether to obey laws and whether or not to test the authority and work towards a new paradigm.

"..I could use those tools to forge a reality in which my position is true."

In bucking any system we counter a reality which something has forged to be a truth. Successfully bucking a system brings the system's truth into question, even to the point of proving it false. Thru hearsay some accept that Jesus actually walked upon water, and the laws that we obey naturally come as second nature. In questioning whether the Bible is a falsified document at best and if the laws we abide by as second nature are erroneously based we can forge a reality closer to our understanding of truth, until something comes along to prove otherwise.
djdipretoro

Con

"The contention is that fear and trembling is not consistent with a state of tribulation." My contention is that fear and trembling, in the context of that passage, and indeed the greater context of all of Scripture, is not the same thing as tribulation. Fear in the Bible is mostly associated with "fear of the LORD." We fear him because he is great and powerful, and we are not. Therefore, in Phil. 2:12-13 the fear and trembling has to do with the humbling nature of salvation, not tribulation.

In regards to your last paragraph: if what you said is true, then what I said still stands. I can forge a reality closer to my understanding of truth, a reality where I am right and you are wrong. Your argument collapses on itself.

Hebrews 12:26-29 makes it clear that we have received a kingdom that cannot be shaken. Note especially, verse 26 and 27, that say God is removing the things that can be shaken. The removal/tribulation is for the wicked (Rom. 2:9). But it doesn't shake.
Debate Round No. 4
Burls

Pro

If the quaking of the Society of Friends (Quakers) and the shaking of the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (shakers) is an addictive experience felt in the presence of God, then I'll agree that fear and trembling is less of a tribulation and more of a thrill. But I propose that if Mathew 7:2 is instrumental in our fate, and forces experienced in waylaying the traveler await our pleasure, then the tribulation is a real prospect for the future if not discerned in the present.
djdipretoro

Con

First, I was glad to debate this with you, and would love to debate again in the future

It seems we have (somewhat) come to an agreement on the fear and trembling of Phil. 2:12-13. However it is not just for The Quakers and Shakers, it is for all believers. And it is not sporadic, ecstatic, craziness. It is a fear and trembling that is normative to all relationships between God and his covenant people.

My voters:

1) my opponent conceded (in some measure) to my argument from Phil. 2:12-13
2) Pro's contention that we can forge a reality for ourselves is highly subjective. Pro essentially admitted that I could forge a reality where I am right and Pro is wrong. He did not refute.
3) My argument from Heb. 12:26-29 was not addressed.
4) Pro's autonomy argument was without biblical evidence, and I provided evidence to refute.

In sum: a) that God is in control b) the kingdom can't shake c) God is king, and we are his subjects, therefore excluding autonomy, the kingdom is not a tribulation.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Burls 2 years ago
Burls
Strong contention; Thanks for the debate.
Posted by Burls 2 years ago
Burls
"overcome adversaries lead (s)"= 1 character over the limit believe it or not, but I didn't catch it in the review.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Con.... Nowhere in the bible does it say God is in control. He has given dominion to man. Man gave that dominion to satan.And jesus came and by spiritual conquest took that dominion to himself.He said, ALL authority , both in heaven and in earth has been given to me. therefore YOU go. He turned right around and put that dominion back into the hands of his believers.

We now, as believers , have dominion over sin, sickness, disease ,fear, demons and death. IF we walk in that dominion. Now if we walk in the law of sin and death by our words or actions, then we are also subject to the same outcome as those who are not believers.Like Job did.

Even though he was a righteous man, he started to walk in fear and death. He said , " only those things I feared the greatest came on me". God stepped ion and told him, you have spoken wrongly of me. And when Job repented of his words, God turned his life around even to giving him twice what he lost.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Burls. Clarity would be very much appreciated.
Posted by Burls 2 years ago
Burls
"If we do as we would be done by, we <strong>eventually</strong> learn to give what we want"- is my understanding of it.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
You need to finish that quote in Isaiah. Those half-quote scriptures will lead you down a path you wish you never got on.

God actually said. Isaiah 55: 8-11. For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways says the Lord. For as the rain comes down,and the snow from heaven, but waters the earth, and brings forth and bud, Gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater. SO SHALL MY WORD BE, that comes out of my mouth.It shall not return to me void,but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it.In other words, you are not that smart, so I sent my word to make you smarter.

Jesus walked perfectly in the word of God. He healed the sick, raised the dead, opened blind eyes, prospered the poor. God accomplished in Jesus what he sent his word to do.And he is that way today.Jesus said, " in the world you shall have tribulation, BUT be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We overcome tribulations with the great and prescious promises in the word of God.

Now if you choose to not listen to God's word, then you handle tribulations as best you can. God will let you do that and not lift a finger to stop you.
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