The Instigator
Microsuck
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
baggins
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Koran contains contradictions of consquence

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Microsuck
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/27/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,308 times Debate No: 21535
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (31)
Votes (1)

 

Microsuck

Pro

I thank my partner, baggins, for agreeing to debate this topic with me. This is a debate on whether or not there are any contradictions in the Koran.

Just for a clarification, I would like to remind everyone that we are not debating whether or not God exists, nor are we debating scientific miracles in the Koran; rather, we are debating if there are contradictions within the Koran.

Rules

Structure

1. Acceptance. I would also request that my partner gives a brief introduction to the Koran and Islam.
2. Pro's opening arguments; con's reply.
3. Pro's first rebuttal; con's second rebuttal.
4. Pro's second rebuttal; con's third rebuttal.
5. Closing statements and final rebuttals.

Definitions

1. The "Koran" is the holy book of the Islamic faith.
2. A "contradiction" is two or more propositions which are logically incompatible with each other.

Conduct

1. There are to be no ad hominems in this debate
2. There are to be no hateful comments toward Islam or Muhammad (p)
3. In respect to the Prophet Muhammad (p) and to my partner, I will place a (p) after the Prophets (pbut) which stands for "peace be unto him/them."
4. Plagarism is absolutely forbidden. Cite all sources.

Voting

1. Please do not vote based upon your bias
2. Please read the entire debate before voting
3. May the best arguments win; not the person you agree with.

Good luck. :-)
baggins

Con

I would like to thank Microsuck for initiating this highly relevant debate.

As suggested by my opponent, I will use this opportunity to present an extremely short introduction to Islam and Quran. I do not claim that this introduction is complete in any sense.

== Introduction ==

Quran was sent to mankind by God as a message. Quran does not claim to contain a new message. It is a reminder to mankind, just like the various reminders which have been sent to mankind earlier.

The Holy Quran:
3:2 Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee [step by step], in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law [of Moses] and the Gospel [of Jesus] before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion [of judgment between right and wrong].

So what is this important message which is so essential for mankind that it has been sent again and again?

Quran teaches us that there is only One God who created the humanity, earth, the skies and the whole world. It tells us that everybody is going to die one day. It tells us, that after death we will be raised up again on the Day of Judgment. On the Day of Judgment, we will be given rewards and punishment for our deeds in this world. Everything that we do, everything we say and even everything we think, all shall be accounted for completely fairly.

The Holy Quran:
99:7 Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
99:8 And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.

How can we succeed on the day of judgement? What is needed is faith in God. Faith that we will have to account for all our deeds one day. This faith should not be in words only. This faith has to be in the hearts of the believers. This faith should be part of the actions and deeds in our daily lives.

Islam teaches humanity to think, read, learn, seek knowledge and be thankful (and not arrogant) for the understanding that we gain. Allah asks us to reflect on the nature of universe around us, and the role and position of mankind in it. Quran encourages all of us to think about the purpose of our lives. It teaches us to look for the signs of Allah in the world around us.

The Holy Quran:
2:164. Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- [Here] indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.

==============

I hope that this debate proves to be a learning opportunity for us. I am waiting eagerly for opening arguments from Microsuck.

== References ==
I shall be quoting the English translation of Quran from Islamicity website.
www.islamicity.com and www.islamicity.com/Quransearch
Debate Round No. 1
Microsuck

Pro

According to the Koran, if there is a single contradiction in the Koran, then the entire Koran is in error. I sent the following list of contradictions in a debate and still await a response. I will give his answer in a future article.

1) Can Allah's decrees be changed?

A) Yes

Surah 2:106:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?


Isn't it funny that an all-wise, all-powerful, all-knowing God will have to bring something better or similar? Fact: perfection cannot yield imperfection; otherwise God will be imperfect.

B) No

Surah 6:34:

"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,"

Surah 6:115

The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.


2) Who was the first Muslim?


A) Muhammad (p)


39:12


"And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam,"

B) Moses


7:143


"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."


C) Abraham!


2:132


"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam,"


3) Was Pharaoh killed by drowning?

Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

A) No

"We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).

B) Yes
Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).

I thank my partner for resolving to refute these errors. If you show me that Islam is correct I will convert. Until then, I believe these three contradictions are enough. Let's summarize:

1) Are Allah's decrees changed?
2) Who was the first Muslim?
3) Did Pharaoh die by drowning?

Thank you, good luck. :-)

baggins

Con

With thanks to Microsuck for a very prompt response.

Can Allah's decree change?
Depends, on what you mean by ‘decree’.

If it is a decision by Allah, then the decision is bound to be enforced as soon as it is due. There is nothing that can alter it.

The Holy Quran:
19:35 …when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

If Allah has made a promise, then Allah will fulfill that promise. Verse 6:34 and 6:115 (which you presented) were talking about promise of Allah.

Allah has given several instructions to humanity about how we should lead our lives. It is possible for human beings to ignore some of the commandments (at their own peril) for the time being. This is just because God has granted some time and respite to human beings before taking account of their deeds.

These instructions can also be classified in two ways. The core concepts (‘Deen’ or ‘Dharma’) always remain intact. On other hand the rules and regulations ('Shariah' or 'Niyam') can change from time of one Prophet to next. This does not mean the old rules were wrong. It is just that they have been substituted with new rules which are better (or more appropriate) for the age. This is what Verse 2:106 was talking about.

I will quickly present one example about the kind of changes that are possible. It was compulsory for Children of Israel to observe Sabbath and to pray daily for two times. Muslims do not have to observe Sabbath, but we have to pray daily for five times. This does not mean that there was anything wrong with the practice of observing Sabbath. It is just that the rules changed.

God is timeless. The rules and regulations are meant for human beings. The rules are changed as per human need and not God's who is free from all needs.

First Muslims:

There is a difference between being first Muslims chronologically and being 'first' among Muslims (or the most devout Muslim).

The first Muslims were Prophet Adam and Eve (Peace on Them), the forefathers of all humanity.

And who is ‘first among Muslims’? All the Prophets of Allah are the best among the Muslims. We do not make any difference between them.

The Holy Quran:
2:136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to [all] prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah [in Islam]."

Did Pharaoh drown?
This is based on a minor misunderstanding, which can be cleared up by reading the verses you quoted carefully. Pharaoh drowned and died, but his body was preserved as a sign for humanity.

The Holy Quran:
10:92. "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"

== Conclusion ==

My esteemed partner said:

"...If you show me that Islam is correct I will convert. Until then, I believe these three contradictions are enough..."

God willing, I will do my best to explain any contradictions you present. However, we should pray to Allah to guide us to the truth and resolve any confusion or rancour we may have in our heart.

Looking forward to further arguments from Microsuck.

Debate Round No. 2
Microsuck

Pro

I thank my partner for his gracious reply. I will add your response to my blog in efforts for the blog to be balanced.

Praise be to Allah, most beneficial, most merciful; master of the day of judgement. If indeed thou art true, then reveal the truth in me and in the readers of this debate.

To review, I have offered three contradictions:

1. Abrogations in the Koran
2. The first Muslim
3. Whether or not Pharaoh drowned.

==Rebuttals==

Can Allah's decrees change or not?

Unfortunately, my partner has, in my opinion, inadaquetly responded to my contention. He contends that if it is a decision by Allah, then the decision is bound ot be enforced as soon as it is due; hence, nothing can change it.

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Here I asked a question: Why would an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise, God have to substitute something better or similar? If something that he decreed earlier was worse than what he caused to be forgotten, then the previous revelation was not perfect to begin with; hence, Allah is not perfect. My partner has not answered this question.

Likewise, my partner's responce fails to answer this Surah:

The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.


Here we are told that the Lord finds fulfillment in truth and justice. None can change His words. If this was true, then how can Allah even change them?

My partner's allegation of Shabbas does not answer anything. In the Torah, he says numerous times "this shall be a Law for all generations." From my research, this has not been corrupted (if it has, you need to prove it). Why then would change the "eternal law for all generations?" [1]

Who was the first muslim?

Again, this was not responded to. He responds that there is a difference between being the first Muslim chronologically and being "first" among Muslims (or most devout). However, this does not answer any questions, but only raises them up.

In Arabic, the word Islam means "surrender" (specifically to the will of Allah) [2]; the word Muslim means a person who submits their will to God. [3]

There is no indication based upon definition that it is talking about most devout. You need to prove that it does.

"And who is ‘first among Muslims’? All the Prophets of Allah are the best among the Muslims. We do not make any difference between them."

If this is true, how is it that Muhammad (peace be unto him) can say that he is the "first" Muslim? He obviously can't be the best among Muslims because there is no distinction between someone like the Prophet Muhammad (peace be unto him) and Jesus (peace be unto him). Likewise, it is obvious that Muhammad (p) was not the first chronological Muslim either.

Did Pharaoh drown?

According to my partner, Pharaoh drowned, but his body was preserved. However, this intepretation is unwarranted linguistically.

In Arabic, why doesn't it say "We will save your body (but not your life)? It uses the preposition in. What does it mean when it says "save you IN your body? You is distinguished from 'your body' and whati s saved is not 'the body' but 'you.' The text refers to the saving of Pharaoh's life. [4] Second objection is that, if Allah is all merciful, why didn't he save Pharaoh after he converted to Islam.

==Conclusion==

I believe that my partner has inadaquetly refuted my claims. Until then, we are warrented to conclude that the Koran contains contradictions.

Thank you.

______________________

1. Exodus 12:14, 12:17, 12:43, 27:21, 28:43, Leviticus 3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29, 16:31, 16:34, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:31, 23:41, 24:3, Numbers 10:8, 15:15, 19:10, 19:21, 18:23, 35:29, Deuteronomy29:28

2. http://www.islamic-dictionary.com...;

3. http://www.islamic-dictionary.com...;

4. http://answering-islam.org...;
baggins

Con

My esteemed opponent said:
"Praise be to Allah, most beneficial, most merciful; master of the day of Judgment. If indeed thou art true, then reveal the truth in me and in the readers of this debate."

Amen

In previous round, Pro had presented some 'contradictions' in Quran. I had pointed out possible simple explanations for those verses which could easily resolve those contradictions. In this round Pro has blankly asserted that my explanations were 'in his opinion' inadequate. However he has ignored my explanations and not bothered to elaborate why my explanations were inadequate.

Traditionally it is burden of Pro to sustain the resolution. However, in my opinion, in most debate it is better to share the burden. I am willing to do my part. But Pro has do his part as well. In next round I expect Pro to explain why his interpretation of these verses (which lead to contradictions) is better than my interpretation, which appears more logical, simpler and easily resolves those contradictions.

In one case Pro has demanded 'linguistic' proof for my explanation. I assume that he knows that any linguistic proof in this case will be from Arabic! I would like Pro to present his interpretation of the verses with linguistic evidence from Arabic language and I shall be happy to rebut them. In the meantime I see no need to make my case unnecessarily technical when most of the readers do not understand Arabic.

In this round, I will present my response to Pro's contradictions once again, while addressing minor secondary issues raised by him. In spite of what I said above, I will discuss the linguistics of the verses mentioned by Pro briefly. However I would like to again assert that it is unnecessary at this stage. Moreover, I will do my best to keep it as simple as possible.

== Can Allah's decree be changed ==

I explained that what is being referred as a 'word' can actually refer to three different (but close) concepts in Quran.

  1. A decision by Allah.
  2. A promise by Allah.
  3. An instruction or commandment to humanity by Allah.


'Kalima' literally means 'statement'. It is used to refer to Allah's promise.

'Ayat' means a 'sign' or 'verse'. Quran uses 'Ayat' to refer to instructions given to humanity by God.

There is no scope for any change in any 'Kalima' from Allah.

An 'Ayat', can change from Prophet to Prophet. With regard to these changes we should remember following facts.

  • These changes do not take place with respect to the core belief. Only the rules and regulations are changed.
  • The changes take place because needs of humanity changes. The earlier laws were perfect for earlier generations. The new laws are perfect for the new generations.


Let us go through each of the verse presented by Pro.

The Holy Quran 2:106
Translation: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Transliteration: Ma nansakh min ayatin aw nunsiha nati bikhayrin minha aw mithliha alam taAAlam anna Allaha AAala kulli shayin qadeerun

As we can see that the key term here is 'Ayat' (see emphasized portion in transliteration). They can change.

The Holy Quran 6:34
Translation: Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,"

Transliteration: Walaqad kuththibat rusulun min qablika fasabaroo AAala ma kuththiboo waoothoo hatta atahum nasruna wala mubaddila likalimati Allahi walaqad jaaka min nabai almursaleena

The Holy Quran 6:115
Translation: The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

Transliteration: Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqan waAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa alssameeAAu alAAaleemu

These verses are talking about Allah's promise or Kalima. They do not change.

I presented Sabbath and number of daily prayers as examples of the instructions which can change. I do not want to enter into a debate about what Old Testament says about Sabbath, since that would be a digression from our discussion. If it bothers my opponent we can ignore my example of Sabbath. I think my arguments are complete even without an example.

== First Muslim ==

In Arabic, the word 'Awwal' can mean first chronologically or first in quality. Intrestingly the same duality of meaning exists in English also. If my opponent stands 'first' in his class, does that mean he was the first person to enrol in the class chronologically? In most cases, the intended meaning is clear from context.

The Holy Quran:
39:12 "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam.

Let us see which meaning is intended. God is commanding Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) to be 'first of those who bow to Allah in Islam'. A very logical interpretation is that God is asking him to be a very good Muslim. He is asking him to practice what he is preaching. Since all the earlier Prophets were Muslim, how can Allah 'command' Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) to be first Muslim chronologically?

Based on context the meaning should be clear.

The Holy Quran:
7:143 ...And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

What is the meaning of 'I am the first to believe’? How can Prophet Moses (Peace on Him) inform God that he happens to be the first Muslim chronologically? Obviously what he is trying to tell Allah while seeking repentance is that he is extremely devout believer.


My opponent argues:
...how is it that Muhammad (peace be unto him) can say that he is the "first" Muslim? He obviously can't be the best among Muslims because there is no distinction between someone like the Prophet Muhammad (peace be unto him) and Jesus (peace be unto him).

If we do not make any distinction between them, then we can consider both of as first among Muslims at the same time. There is no contradiction.

== Did Pharaoh Drown? ==

The Holy Quran:
10:92 "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"

My partner argues that I have not explained linguistically why 'save thee in the body' is same as ‘save your body’. This was because my opponent had not presented any linguistic arguments either.

I would like to hear from my opponent what this verse means according to him! Does God save Pharaoh after all! Does Pharaoh live in peace with Prophet Moses (Peace on Him) and the children of Israel after converting to Islam? He has to ensure that his explanation is in accordance with the context.

As far as I am concerned, 'save thee in thy body' is equivalent to 'save your body'. This is more obvious in Arabic than in English. The 'in' is just an artifact due a very close translation from one language to other. On other hand this verse is clear enough in English as well. If anyone thinks that God saved Pharaoh, then they have to explain why 'body' is mentioned in this verse at all!

My opponent also asks why God rejected Pharaoh's 'conversion'. There is a time just before death when the reality of the life becomes obvious to a person. However that time is too late for repentance. It is better for us if we repent for our sins and revert to God while we have time and it is not too late.

== Conclusion ==

I have presented simple, possible and plausible interpretation of the verses which clear up the contradictions. I have also presented some linguistic arguments (albeit very basic ones) in support of my analysis. The onus is on Pro to explain with appropriate evidence and arguments why these contradictions are still unresolved.

Looking forward to appropriate evidence from Microsuck.

Debate Round No. 3
Microsuck

Pro

Unfortunately for personal reasons, I must skip this round. I apologize and didn't want to let the time run out. I ask that my partner wait a day or so in order to post his next round. I will refute my partner's arguments ASAP. Note that this is NOT a forfeit.

Thanks
baggins

Con

My partner did not get time to debate. That is OK and happens to everyone sometimes. In fact I too have been quite busy.

Since I have addressed all the contradictions - I think it will be better if I 'pass'.

Waiting for response from Microsuck.


Debate Round No. 4
Microsuck

Pro

I thank baggains for his kindness in this debate and would like to thank the readers for reading this. I wish to bring just a quick summary of my opening round.

In my opening round, I presented three contradictions:
1) Are Allah's decrees changed?
2) Who was the first Muslim?
3) Did Pharaoh die by drowning?

In question 1, I asked: Why would an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise, God have to substitute something better or similar? If something that he decreed earlier was worse than what he caused to be forgotten, then the previous revelation was not perfect to begin with; hence, Allah is not perfect. My partner has not answered this question.

For question 2, my partner brought up a possible linguistic error which I shown to be false.

For q3, I also showed that, linguistically, the idea that pharoe drowned and yet was preserved is false. The linguistic analysis shown this cannot work.

==Rebuttals==

Can allah's decrees be changed?

Ibn Warraq notes: "The doctrine of abrogation makes a mockery of the Muslim dogma that the Quran is a faithful and unalterable reproduction of the original scriptures that are preserved in heaven. If God's words are eternal, uncreated, and of universal significance, then how can we talk of God's words being superseded or becoming obsolete? [1]

Indeed, if God is perfect, then how can ANY of Allah's laws change? My partner says:

An 'Ayat', can change from Prophet to Prophet. With regard to these changes we should remember following facts.

  • These changes do not take place with respect to the core belief. Only the rules and regulations are changed.
  • The changes take place because needs of humanity changes. The earlier laws were perfect for earlier generations. The new laws are perfect for the new generations
The last point is quite interesting: The earlier laws were perfect for earlier generations, the new laws are perfect for new generations. This begs the question: Can the Quran change and hence Allah have a prophet after Muhammad (p)? If not, then why not? Furthermore, if God is perfect, then he can simply create laws that will be perfect for all generations. I have proved from the earlier "revelations" of Allah that he indeed stated that the laws are perfect for ALL generations. Why not in the Quran? Is it because Allah is imperfect?

I am not quite convinced on the argument for question 2, though I will concede for now.

Did Pharoh drown?

There is a time just before death when the reality of the life becomes obvious to a person. However that time is too late for repentance. It is better for us if we repent for our sins and revert to God while we have time and it is not too late.

can we then call Allah "all-merciful?" If so, why? In Christian theology, God can save you and forgive your sins before you die. Why should I accept your religion over that religion? (Not necessarily a red herring, just out of curiosity for future reference).

Thank you.


==References==

1. Warraq, Ibn. Why I am Not a Muslim. page 115
baggins

Con



With many thanks to Microsuck for having this intresting debate with me.

Alert readers and voters would have noticed by now that my esteemed opponent has conceded each of the contradiction he originally presented. Rather, he is raising few queries over my response. None of his queries have anything to do with contradictions in Quran.

The purpose of this debate is to address alleged contradictions in The Holy Quran. The purpose of this debate is not to explain everything that Quran says. If I am able to explain some aspect of the Quran, it does not mean Quran has a contradiction. Pro cannot win this debate until he proves a contradiction in Quran.

It does not mean that I will not try to answer his queries. However I would like to keep it separate from this debate by addressing it in a separate section, 'general queries'. Voters are requested to ignore it for the purpose of this debate. Moreover I may not be able to do sufficient justice to each of question since it is already the last round. In that case we shall carry our discussion on those topics to the forums.

== Can Allah's decree change ==
The original contradiction raised by my esteemed opponent was that Quran says in 2:106 that God's revelations can change. However in Quran 6:34 and 6:115 it says that it cannot.

I explained that Quran 2:106 is talking about Allah's Ayat (signs, verses, commands or instruction) whereas Quran 6:34 and 6:115 are talking about Allah's Kalima (statement or promise). An Ayat may be forgotten or abrogated - but then it is replaced by something equivalent or better. A Kalima from God cannot change.

Pro dropped this explanation and did not respond to it. Dropped points count as concession.

Pro reiterates his claim by quoting an extremely biased source in form Ibn Warraq. However there is nothing in the quote which shows any contradiction in the Quran. All that we learn is Ibn Warraw hates Islam - which is not news.

== First Muslim ==
Pro has conceded this point completely. He also presents an interesting contradiction in his arguments.

He says:
I am not quite convinced on the argument for question 2, though I will concede for now.


But in the beginning he says:
For question 2, my partner brought up a possible linguistic error which I shown to be false.

I did not bring up any linguistic error. Naturally my partner has not shown it to be false.

== Did Pharoah drown? ==
I have presented simple explanation for the verses. My esteemed opponent was expected to present evidence as to why my explanation is incorrect. He has not done so. However that has not stopped Pro from claiming:

For q3, I also showed that, linguistically, the idea that pharoe drowned and yet was preserved is false. The linguistic analysis shown this cannot work.

Pro has not shown anything, linguistically or otherwise. Readers are welcome to search his arguments for any linguistic analysis. But if they cannot find it, they will have to agree with me that Pro has conceded this point as well.

Pro has asked some questions. However asking questions is not equal to proving contradictions. Pro asserts that those questions are not red-herrings. As far as the debate is concerned, they are red-herrings. On other hand I am happy to answer these questions in 'general queries'.

As an aside from the debate, in the comments section a reader has posted a video of eminent Egyptiologist Dr Maurice Bucaille, who has investigated the life of Pharaohs in light of Quran and Bible. I would also like to refer those who are interested to excellent book by Dr Bucaille which explores the subject in depth.

== General Queries ==
My partner has raised some queries, none of which prove a contradiction in Quran. I will try to address them here.

1. Why would an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise, God have to substitute something better or similar?

This is a question. Not a contradiction. This has nothing to do with this debate.

Moreover I have explained that the rule change because of imperfections of humanity. Pro has ignored my explanation.

2. I have proved from the earlier "revelations" of Allah that he indeed stated that the laws are perfect for ALL generations. Why not in the Quran?

Again this question has nothing to do with contradictions in Quran.

You managed to 'prove' it, because I did not counter it. I did not counter it because I do not want the scope of our discussion to be unnecessarily extended beyond Quran.

Further, I have also explained that any change is with regard to the rules and regulations. When people have faith in God, believe in the Day of Judgment and ensure that their deeds match their faith, minor differences in rules and methods of prayer don't really count. Religious people tend to be quite tolerant of such differences.

3. Is it because Allah is imperfect?

Naturally No. Allah is our God. God cannot be imperfect.

4. Can the Quran change and hence Allah have a prophet after Muhammad (p)? If not, then why not?

Once again irrelevant to the debate.

Quran says in 33:40 that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was the Seal of phrophets (or the final Prophet). This is also backed by several Ahadith. There is not going to be any new Prophet to the humanity.

On other hand, most Muslims do believe in the second coming of Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) which is scheduled before Day of Judgment. However he cannot be considered as a new Prophet.

5. Can we then call Allah "all-merciful?" If so, why?

Allah is ‘The Most Merciful’ and ‘The Most Forgiving’. On other hand God is also ‘The Most Just’ and Swift in taking account. God can forgive the most grievous sins that we may commit. But that happens only when we turn to Allah's mercy and seek repentance while we have time.

6. In Christian theology, God can save you and forgive your sins before you die. Why should I accept your religion over that religion?

Religion is not a bargain hunt. In any case, I suspect Christians will agree with Muslims in this regard. Sins are forgiven until we die. As soon as we face death, our time runs out. Do not postpone your decision about religion until death-bed. No one knows when and how sudden our death is going to be and our time will run out.

Quran 21:1 1. Closer and closer to mankind comes their Reckoning: yet they heed not and they turn away.

== References ==
1. Dr Maurice Bucaille, "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science"
saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/Science.doc
Debate Round No. 5
31 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by baggins 2 years ago
baggins
@ Alarabi

Thanks for confirming that Microsuck did not prove anything against Quran.

I am not concerned about winning or losing in terms of votes. I do care about answering any questions raised against Quran, and presenting my arguments effectively.

Of course I know that we are on same side.
Posted by Alarbi 2 years ago
Alarbi
@Baggins
You should not take the winning-losing part seriously; it is just an Internet game that allows to two people to debate virtually. What counted for me were the arguments and your arguments were very good. As I said, Microsuck did not bring anything against the Quran, and although I was all the time ON YOUR SIDE, his strategy was the best. And even though I said that he did not bring anything against the Quran, he thanked me in his last comment! Which mean that HE IS VERY FAIR as well!

There is a Verse in the Quran that I should copy here for all of us:

O you who believe, stand as absolutely equitable, and observe God, when you serve as witnesses, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then God is fully Cognizant of everything you do. (Quran 4:135)
Posted by baggins 2 years ago
baggins
@ alarabi

I am not really sure what you want to say. As far as this debate is concerned, I was able to answer all the alleged contradictions Microsuck presented. In the end he did not prove anything against the Quran (with which you seem to agree) and he did not back up any of his points with evidence. A person having burden of proof can win a debate only by proving their case and not by injecting 'invisible', 'context less assertions'. While I am not very concerned as to how people vote at DDO, I am reasonably sure that I should win this debate.

On other hand, if you are saying that my approach in the debate could have been better then I am interested. I can understand your suggestion that I could have explained the context in each case. However, discussing context for each verse may have been an overkill in this debate.

I am not an expert in Islam or Quran. I just do my best to understand the Quran, practice it and when needed, explain to others whatever I have understood. If I get stuck, I rely on asking people with more knowledge. While I am sure that my defense was sufficient as far as this debate is concerned, if I have made any factual mistake feel free to correct me.

Thanks for reading the debate.
Posted by Microsuck 2 years ago
Microsuck
Thanks for your comment, Alarbi!
Posted by Alarbi 2 years ago
Alarbi
Judging only from the strategy used, I must admit that Microsuck should win in this debate although he did not prove anything against the Quran! He managed to inject in the debate something that remained invisible to his opponent! Namely a "context less assertion"! Who was the first Muslim Mohamed-Moses-Abraham. (Quran 39:12, 7:143, 2:132). His opponent did not fully understand the strategy of stripping a Verse of its context which always results 100% in disorientation and Chaos, not only here but in any other situation! If we take the context away then we will tread on a contradiction in the Quran in every page we read! Here is another one in Verse 26:51 describing the magicians who believed in God and bowed to Moses after seeing the miracles:

Lo! we ardently hope that our Lord will forgive us our sins because we are the first of the believers. (Quran Pickthall 26:51)

In case Microsuck used this strategy by chance here is an explanation of context that will help him win a lot of other debates!

(see comment beneath)
Posted by Alarbi 2 years ago
Alarbi
(Follows from comment above)
What is CONTEXT
Context is the environment or situation in which something exists or occurs. The human mind uses context to manage a massive amount of information from a myriad of different situations, such as work, family, friends, and community. Using context, people quickly decipher what information is relevant in a given situation. As people, we can recognize the contexts we are in, know what information is applicable to each context, and derive information from each context.
For example, when a computer store clerk asks, "Can I help you?" and you answer, "burner" the clerk will immediately take you to the CD and DVD recorder section. On the surface this exchange may appear elementary, but the simplicity belies just how complex and advanced human communications really are. Both you and the clerk used context to enrich the word "burner". From the clerk's perspective, she used the computer store's context in conjunction with the word "burner" to decipher your meaning. Stove burners, Bunsen burners, and wood burners were all out of the question. Besides, because your interaction was in the context of a store, the clerk knew that you would be limited to examining and perhaps buying the merchandise. From your perspective, you knew that in a computer store, the word "burner", without further information, would result in exactly the information you sought. Using context you and the clerk were able to transform ambiguity into exactly the right information.

Context processing is essential to the human mind. In fact, context processing is so important that researchers have found its loss or impairment has been linked to the cognitive problems of aging and schizophrenia.
Posted by baggins 2 years ago
baggins
@16kadams

Thanks for your vote. I don't want a debate on votes in comments. However just wanted to inform you that the point based on which you have voted has been conceded by Pro in last round. Here is what he said...

"I am not quite convinced on the argument for question 2, though I will concede for now."
Posted by baggins 2 years ago
baggins
Giving my age as 103 is not intended as deception. It is in same category as the lion logo or hobbit name. They all work of fiction.

There are 352 people on DDO whose age is greater that 100. I doubt if anyone of them is actually over 100. Part of the problem is there is no option for hiding age otherwise.

My sincere apologies if you actually thought that I was over 100.
Posted by Alarbi 2 years ago
Alarbi
My God am I the only genuine person in this debate or what? It is Ok to use Aslan the lion as your logo, but giving 103 as your age is clearly a lie! The Quran is STRICTLY against any sort of lies and you are not taking this seriously…
Posted by baggins 2 years ago
baggins
lol. Very few profiles on DDO are accurate. I am not a hobbit. And I don't look like Aslan either!

100 is the maximum age DDO allows you on the day you join. I joined ~3 years ago. Hence 103!
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 2 years ago
16kadams
MicrosuckbagginsTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: I only name 1 contradiction: first Muslim Abraham, Moses, or Mohammad. I think pro won't his point therefore wins. He only needed 1...