The Instigator
xxeightydxx
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
Korashk
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

The Marvel character Sentinel should be removed from Marvel Vs Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/21/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,420 times Debate No: 16074
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (3)

 

xxeightydxx

Pro

First round is for acceptance, the real fight will start in round 2. If the topic isn't clear enough feel free to tell me in the comment section. Otherwise have a blast.
Korashk

Con

I wish my opponent luck and would like to steer clear of semantics.
Debate Round No. 1
xxeightydxx

Pro

Sentinel is an unfair and cheap character and because of this, should be removed from Marvel vs Capcom 3.
Reason 1: Sentinel's launcher attack is unfair.
Not only is it an armored attack (i.e it will take more than one hit to stop the attack)(1), Sentinel's launcher has enormous range (2). Sentinel's launcher attack also is incredibly fast and this speed makes it impossible for other characters to close the distance and launch an offense. Having such an over powered launcher can easily make any fight one sided, especially considering the massive damage that can be done when an opponent is hit by one. Keeping a character in the MvC3 game with such an over powered launcher prevents the game from being a based on player skill, an idea that the MvC franchise tends to emphasis

Reason 2: Sentinel's Combos misses the skill/damage ratio
It MvC3, if a player wants to do a massive damage in a combo, they must have a certain amount of skill to execute the combo. My first video shows that combos preformed by Ryu. Notice that in these combos, Ryu generally did an average of 550k damage per combo unless he used X-factor or 3+ hyper bars.
However, in the case of Sentinel, combos can be pulled off using less inputs, less hyper moves, and no X-factor and can easily achieve 890k damage per combo. That is high enough to one-shot 12 characters.(3) These Sentinel combos are way less demanding then the combos of Ryu, yet, they do way more damage. Combine this cheap combo-ing power with the insane power bonus of the X-factor and you have a character that is flat out unfair. For these reasons I feel that Sentinel should be removed for MvC3. I would like to thank my opponent for this debate and wish him good luck.

(1) http://wiki.shoryuken.com...
(2)http://im.tech2.in.com...
(3) http://wiki.shoryuken.com...
Korashk

Con

Nerf - a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. [1]

My main contention is that instead of being removed from the game, Sentinel should be nerfed.

Most of my opponent's points against Sentinel point towards the character being overpowered. Not that he should be removed. Are the attacks too fast for a character of its size? Make its attacks slower. Are his attacks too powerful in a way that unbalances the game? Make his attacks less powerful.

Nerfing is preferable to removal of elements of video games because instead of simply getting rid of something perceived to be unfair, it takes said unfair element and balances it. This allows for those who enjoy using the element to still use it while everyone else gets to play a game where they aren't dominated whenever they play against one character.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...(computer_gaming)
Debate Round No. 2
xxeightydxx

Pro

"My main contention is that instead of being removed from the game, Sentinel should be nerfed."

This has already happened, yet Capcom only decreased his health level. If this is the only "nerf" that such an over powered character receives, then he should be removed entirely. (1)

"Most of my opponent's points against Sentinel point towards the character being overpowered. Not that he should be removed."

Two things here:
1) My opponent agrees Sentinel is an overpowered character
2) My argument is that he should be removed because he is overpowered.

"Are the attacks too fast for a character of its size? Make its attacks slower. Are his attacks too powerful in a way that unbalances the game? Make his attacks less powerful."

I would normally agree here however with the inclusion of the X-factor ability, no matter how much his attacks are reduced, a level 3 X-factored Sentinel will still have ridiculous attack power and speed. (2) Sentinel isn't a popular character to begin with (3); Capcom should remove him and make Marvel vs Capcom 3 more balanced.

(1) http://wiki.shoryuken.com...
(2) http://wiki.shoryuken.com...
(3)http://marvel.com...
Also I think you may have given the wrong link for Nerf, no worries though.
Korashk

Con

/// This has already happened, yet Capcom only decreased his health level. If this is the only "nerf" that such an over powered character receives, then he should be removed entirely. ///

You can nerf an aspect of the game more than once. Plus, I do not understand the significance of the source listed after this statement. It's just the health comparisons that you posted earlier. There is nothing about nerfing Sentinel.
~

/// My opponent agrees Sentinel is an overpowered character ///

False. Nowhere in this debate or otherwise have I stated this. The nerf suggestion is merely an alternative to removal from the game. In fact, other than Sentinel having a long reach I don't feel that there is anything wrong with the character. Even that isn't all that bad.
~

The evidence that my opponent has put forward of this is ONE combo that can be done with Sentinel. A combo that that can only be performed under a certain set of circumstances (namely pushing your opponent to the far edge of the stage). My opponent also says that this combo is "easy". I implore the readers to watch the video and judge for themselves whether or not this combo is easy.

I presume that the narrator discovered this combo on his own and provided the video to demonstrate it. He fails to perform the combo more often than he succeeds, and in the audio you can hear the frantic pushing of buttons. There are at least 27 clicks that I could count. This does not seem "easy" or simple to me as a person who has never played this game.
~

/// I would normally agree here however with the inclusion of the X-factor ability, no matter how much his attacks are reduced, a level 3 X-factored Sentinel will still have ridiculous attack power and speed. ///

Is this not the point of X-Factor powers? Boost your character to a level that would be considered overpowered temporarily. The X-Factor boost also does this for every single character in the game.

If you still think this is overpowering the character then it could also receive a nerf. Reduce the amount that Sentinel is boosted by the X-Factor.
~

/// Sentinel isn't a popular character to begin with ///

That is not what your (3) source really says. From what I can tell it's just an alphabetical list of Marvel characters.
~

Re-do of my nerf source: http://bit.ly...
Debate Round No. 3
xxeightydxx

Pro

I apologize to Con, I posted the wrong link for Round 3 for source 1. I meant to use this one: http://www.eventhubs.com...

Anyway moving on

"The evidence that my opponent has put forward of this is ONE combo that can be done with Sentinel. A combo that that can only be performed under a certain set of circumstances (namely pushing your opponent to the far edge of the stage). My opponent also says that this combo is "easy". I implore the readers to watch the video and judge for themselves whether or not this combo is easy.

I presume that the narrator discovered this combo on his own and provided the video to demonstrate it. He fails to perform the combo more often than he succeeds, and in the audio you can hear the frantic pushing of buttons. There are at least 27 clicks that I could count. This does not seem "easy" or simple to me as a person who has never played this game."

A few things here:
1) If you look at the description of the video on the actual YouTube site you will see a read-out of the combo, the full combo requires 12 inputs. The clicks are incredibility misleading to the true nature of the combo.
2) Even when the combo wasn't successful, Sentinel still managed 400k+ damage, with only 4 hits. No other character with that range and speed can do that.
3) Your right, I can only find ONE combo that does around 800k. All the other PLETHORA of combos generally do 900k to a million damage.
4) Any combo is going to be difficult for somebody who has never played the game. However, these people who never play the game or those who are not that good at MvC3 are not the ones suffering from Sentinel's inclusion in MvC3. It is, in fact players from moderate to professional skill that are generally feeling the wrath of such an over powered character. Just take a look at what professional gamer Justin Wong said about Sentinel (1). Clearly, if the pros have such gripes about a single character, then that character should probably cease to exist.

"That is not what your (3) source really says. From what I can tell it's just an alphabetical list of Marvel characters."

My source (3) in debate 2 was a list of all popular marvel characters according to marvel (Its at the bottom of the page, titled popular character index). Despite all the mentions of extremely obscure hero's and villains, Sentinel fails to be on the list. This leads me to believe that Sentinel isn't popular (even by Marvels generous standards on who is a popular character).

In closing
Sentinel is an overpowered character that ruins the game for slightly experienced players and pro players alike. Capcom should stop tinkering with a broken character and simply eject him from the game entirely. I would like to thank my opponent for such an awesome debate and thank the audience for staying with us until the end.

1-http://twitter.com...
Korashk

Con

There's not really much for me to say in this concluding round of the debate. My main contention was that Sentinel should be nerfed instead of removed from the game. This will allow those that like using Sentinel to keep using the character, those that hate Sentinel to hate him less, and open more strategy options when using the character. All I have left is to respond to some things in my opponents lastest response.

/// Just take a look at what professional gamer Justin Wong said about Sentinel (1). Clearly, if the pros have such gripes about a single character, then that character should probably cease to exist. ///

I don't see why. Professional gaming leagues typically have their own rules when it comes to play. For instance the MLG rules for Super Smash Brothers Melee [1]. If Sentinel truly is an unfair element then the leagues should have no problem banning him from play. Plus, that is one person complaining about something he obviously doesn't like. Hardly justification for its removal.
~

/// My source (3) in debate 2 was a list of all popular marvel characters according to marvel (Its at the bottom of the page, titled popular character index). Despite all the mentions of extremely obscure hero's and villains, Sentinel fails to be on the list. This leads me to believe that Sentinel isn't popular (even by Marvels generous standards on who is a popular character). ///

A few things about that list:
1.) I can only see the first page of it. When I try to view other pages it just takes me to the top of the page
2.) The list is clearly in alphabetical order, not ranked. For all I know Sentinel is on one of the other pages that I can't view.
3.) Even if Sentinel isn't on that list, so what? That isn't a popularity chart for characters in Marvel vs. Capcom 3. That's a popularity list for all characters in the Marvel comics multiverse. A character's relative popularity there would not be comparable to the character's in-game popularity. This is mainly because the popularity of a character in a fighting game is determined by more than simply liking a character. Other aspects come into play such as speed, power, etc.
~

Sources:
[1] http://allisbrawl.com...
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Korashk 5 years ago
Korashk
I don't actually play, but if I did I'd use Super Skrull.
Posted by xxeightydxx 5 years ago
xxeightydxx
So just wondering, who does everybody like to use?
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
Why do you feel he should be removed? Too powerful? Not a member long enough to qualify? Don't need the full argument, just the simplified reason.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 5 years ago
Maikuru
xxeightydxxKorashkTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's argument for nerfing completely eliminates Pro's complaints while still allowing the character to remain playable. Pro's response - it was tried once already - does not mean it cannot be done again. Pro never offered a second rebuttal and loses the case there.
Vote Placed by Kahvan 5 years ago
Kahvan
xxeightydxxKorashkTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: I simply felt that X made more convincing arguments and made better points, in terms of sources I feel that he used a larger and deeper better variety overall.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
xxeightydxxKorashkTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Clear win, Pro should have rebutted with a nerfed sentinel would not be sentinel