The Instigator
boozeandbabble
Pro (for)
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The Contender
fred70
Con (against)
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The Mechanics of Reality and the Numinous (God/spirituality/supernatural)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/7/2016 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 351 times Debate No: 97776
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
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boozeandbabble

Pro

You may use a thousand words for a single lie, but the truth has no twin.-----Michael Bassey Johnson.
What rationale can discern that the truth has no twin?
Reality is as hard as nails.----C.S. Lewis
It doesn't give two pence about our ideologies, sentiments, interpretations, and religious notions. Our propaganda means nothing to reality.
From the wittiest philosopher to the tiniest gnat, everything has been subjugated by it.
Every organism experiences reality from a different vantage point. Does truth prefer one vantage point over another? Is truth divided? No, truth is in subjection to reality.
The mechanics of reality function as a whole, therefore truth is dependent on reality, but reality is dependent on itself.
What rationale can discern that truth has no twin? Our perception wars have no place here.
We collectively have the mechanics of reality. A gnat can't be a philosopher. A philosopher can't be a gnat. The mechanics of reality won't allow this.
A being capable of reasoning can apply a claim to the mechanics of reality and discern truth from fiction. A being incapable or unwilling to apply a claim to the mechanics of reality may accept fiction as truth. But reality doesn't care. It's as hard as nails.
I'll be using the word "numinous" for God/spirituality/supernatural.
The numinous has no standard by which to validate itself.
If applied to the mechanics of reality it has no validity. The numinous is imprisoned by its own merit to subjectivity.
Subjectivity is the playpen of futility. It's perception wars with no umpire. Propaganda vs propaganda. Sentiments vs sentiments. Opinionated bias vs opinionated bias.
Prefernce attempting to conquer preference. All of this is always doomed to a stalemate.
Brother, is humanity's gut feeling for the numinous valid? Is the numinous simply an emotional trait involuntarily forced upon us by evolution? Some sort of instigator towards
Innovation which equips us for survival and nothing more?
Art, music, poetry, philosophy. Are these things simply a purposeless fluke?
fred70

Con

Along the evolutionary process we became cunning little devils. We had no choice!
How could such weak, pathetic creatures survive in such a hostile environment?
Our skin was our armor to the brutality of savage predators.
Vegatational pickings were slim. Herbivores weren't too charitable.
Hunting was a fool's task among carnivorous competitors.
But we weren't unaided. No, we were dealt the same hand many other species were dealt.
It's called: comradery, teamwork. And from that, and by that, and FOR that, comes (to use your word) innovation. Birds use it to make nests. Monkeys use it to open nuts with sticks.
We used it (and still use it) to make tools and clothes. And then vanity was born (if it didn't already exist).
My tools are better than your tools. My clothes are better than yours.
And now instead of just fighting for spots we fought for things.
If that weren't bad enough for our ego we invented fire.
We had seen fires before from natural disasters, but now we did it and even controlled it.
Pride was heightened, but so was abstract thinking.
Fire was extraordinary. It was magical!
We didn't fully understand it, but we knew we lived by it.
We also knew no other animal could do it. No, not even close.
We were SPECIAL.
So we used our abstract thinking to come to a detrimental conclusion, sacrifice.
We offered fruits and grains to the fire. We offered animals to the fire.
We offered each other to the fire!
The fire was numinous and so were we.
We sang to it. We told stories by it.
And we understood the dual nature of fire. It was good but bad.
It could cook food and burn the cook as well.
Dualism was born. It shaped our abstract thinking drastically.
And from that, and by that, and FOR that. We shaped a philosophy that
has remained intact to this day: the good and the bad can't exist without each other.
So we gave the dilemma back to where we found it, the fire (the numinous).
It would solve our problems and save us all from our embarrassingly imagined dualism.
Religions have come and gone and keep F***ing coming and fiddling with our imagined
problem, dualism.
And so here we are now in modernity. And F*** me silly, philosophers with all the niceties of modernity keep insisting on fiddling with our supposed dilemma.
Damn you man! I've known you for 20 years now. I know that you know there's no numinous.
Debate Round No. 1
boozeandbabble

Pro

Biologists estimate that 99% of all Earth's species have gone extinct.
Most of them millions of years ago.
Since none of them left any monuments of their knowledge we're the most advanced species by default.
What natural force singled us out to have the biological capacity to evolve leaps and bounds beyond the rest? Was it just spectacular happenstance? I mean lucky charms are magically delicious, but damn dude!
The dualism bit, you so eloquently articulated, is fascinating but irrelevant.
Every wonderment, whether lovingly expressed or barbarically expressed, cannot be attributed to the numinous.
Inspiration does not come from the source, but from the sentimental contemplation of the source.
Your fire metaphor proves both your point and mine. Fire has no intentions it just burns.
They sought intentions where none were given. They sought intentions in their interpretation of the numinous.
By the mechanics of reality I confess that the numinous is unknowable.
By the pattern of our daily behavior I cannot deny the numinous.
The "more than meets the eye" mentality.
The innate willingness among us all to reject the notion that breeding, resting, sustaining, maintaining, is the sum total of existence.
And that WILLINGNESS is the numinous.
If that cannot be called the numinous then what can?
fred70

Con

Nothing can be called numinous. How's that for ya.
That bit towards the end was an elephant sized heap of emotional bs.
Your four categories of existence: breeding, resting, sustaining, maintaining...
And the "willingness" to seek more than the monotonous cycle of life.
File that desire under the "resting" category.
Hobbies, contemplation, etc, all this is part of relaxation.
Every single animal seeks relaxation. Whether through resting or entertainment.
That youtube video you showed me, the one with a monkey raping a frog to death, that was the monkey's way of relaxing. He was entertaining himself. Not breeding, sustaining, maintaining.
Your transformers quote (really dude) "the more than meets the eye mentality", that was what that monkey was doing.
Relaxation, in all its various forms, (reading, art, music, even thinking of the numinous) is not the numinous.
There is no numinous. You can't call the good parts of life the numinous.
Call it what it is, relaxation.
Your implication that the evolution of man suggests the numinous, no it does not.
The "spectacular happenstance" of humanity being the most advanced species is speculation.
Any claim that we're the most advanced species is subjective.
It cannot be applied to the mechanics of reality.
Debate Round No. 2
boozeandbabble

Pro

I concede to your point, my claim (humans' superior evolution) was indeed subjective.
Well here I am. Beat down by your stone cold logic.
I totally see the rationale for every numinous related activity being relaxation just as meaningless as that monkey raping a frog to death.
Here's my last question: why does it bother me that the monkey raped that frog to death.
Why does it bother me that Youtubers found the frog's death absolutely hilarious in the comments.
If there's no numinous why am I bothered by that which doesn't concern me?
fred70

Con

Empathy my friend. You felt empathy.
No numinous. Just a stark realization that
"Every person or animal you will ever meet will one day lose everything it ever loved. So be nice to them in the meantime."-----Sam Harris
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by fred70 1 year ago
fred70
Lol the poltergeist scared me too dude. That creepy clown!!
Posted by boozeandbabble 1 year ago
boozeandbabble
You must be a quick learner. I'm still afraid there's a clown living under my bed.
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
" is humanity's gut feeling for the numinous valid?" .......No it is a gut feeling...when I was 5 years old I had a "gut feeling" that there was a monster under my bed...( had seen a movie "about it" the same night).
Posted by boozeandbabble 1 year ago
boozeandbabble
you beat the brakes off me. I still believe in God. That sam harris quote is totally numinous.
Posted by fred70 1 year ago
fred70
A few beers bring out the troll in me. I know I F***ed that other debate for you.
Posted by boozeandbabble 1 year ago
boozeandbabble
Dude, thanks for being serious this time. Last time you acted like a christian fundamentalist.
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