The Instigator
sportsarrazi317
Pro (for)
Tied
3 Points
The Contender
m93samman
Con (against)
Tied
3 Points

The Miami Heat will win the NBA Finals.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/31/2010 Category: Sports
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,219 times Debate No: 14214
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

sportsarrazi317

Pro

The Miami Heat are one of the best teams in the league. They started off very slow and now are on a hot streak. The fact is they look like they have a good chance to win it all.

Before going into detail, I await an opponent to accept my debate.
m93samman

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate.

Although I would agree with my opponent's position, I'm going to argue for devils advocate for I believe there is no outstanding statistic that distinguishes the Heat from any other team in the NBA. I wish my opponent luck, and a Happy New Year.
Debate Round No. 1
sportsarrazi317

Pro

The BOP of the negative side is to prove that the Miami Heat won't be able to win the NBA Finals.

Definitions: will win: Will win is defined as when the NBA Finals come around the Miami Heat will be competing and they will be "champions" so to speak. They are going to be referred to as the number one team of the league at the end of the year. Just clarifying in case the neg didn't understand.

C1: Expectations and Fanbase
The fact of the matter is simple the Miami Heat are not only the number one team in the SouthEast and are going to soon be the number one team in the East, and soon after the league. At the beginning of the season the Heat were looked at much like the Celtics of a couple years ago. They were expected to end up winning the Finals. Now currently on the NBA power rankings they are ranked number four. The power rankings are a comprehensive list that takes into account many things in order to determine the best and worst teams in the league. The Miami Heat were ranked at 2 originally and after a very slow start they dropped down to thirteen. Now after a start of nine and eight. A record a team, especially of their caliber would not be proud of, they have recently gone 14-1 in their past fifteen games. The Fanbase ever since the one and only Lebron James has joined the Miami Heat the expectations for the team and the fanbase have greatly increased. The Expectations are to reach the Finals and win. The Fanbase is so large and so great that every game will feel like a home game. If you look at all the great teams of the past the Lakers in the 80's and 90's...The Celtics of the 60's etc. They all had some of the greatest fanbases of all time. They had fans in the other side of the country. People jump on the band wagon and will do anything to be able to see this team play. So now wherever they go the Heat never skip a beat. Currently the Miami Heat home record is 13-4 and their away record is 12- 5 at away games. As I stated previously and will restate the Miami Heat have such a great fanbase that they will never skip a beat. Their records home and away are almost identical and it shows that the fan base for the Heat is so large that its as if they were always home and it will continue to feel like this for the Heat. All the way through to the Finals and because of this large fanbase they are going to soon win the NBA finals.

C2: Star Power
Every Team to ever win an NBA championship has had a great player on their roster. I would like my opponent to provide one team in the history of the NBA to win a championship without a key player or a "star" player on their roster. Now the heat already won one championship in 2006. They had Dwyane Wade and Shaq. At the time Shaq was old and not as good as he once was. He did provide some amount of help, but most of the work was done by Wade. Now with Shaq gone to the Celtics many were skeptical of the Heat's ability to win games. Although now Dwyane Wade has recruited Lebron James and Chris Bosh. Those two alone are able to double Shaq's ability in 2006. It's obvious to see that those three working in harmony make the Heat the best team in the league. This has been proven by the Heat being able to win 14 out of their last 15 games. They were not able to work together gracefully early in the season due to certain quirks they needed to work out, and Wade had a small knee injury or a shoulder injury. Now that he is back and better than ever and all of the Big Three willing to give some stats in order to win their is no stopping this three headed monster.

C3: Bench
Behind every great player/players there is a very high quality bench helping them out. If you take a look at the Miami Heat bench they have a very solid team. Many of the players on their bench can be starting elsewhere in the league. This is what makes teams like Boston and Los Angeles so successful. Now according to ESPN the Miami Heat depth chart is as followed.
Point Guard Carlos Arroyo Mario Chalmers
Shooting Guard Dwyane Wade Eddie House
Small Forward LeBron James James JonesMike Miller
Power Forward Chris Bosh Juwan HowardUdonis Haslem
Center Zydrunas IlgauskasErick DampierJoel AnthonyJamaal Magloire Dexter Pittman
Take a good look at those names. Erick Dampier used to be a started for the Mavs. Joel Anthony was the previous starter for the Heat. Mario Chalmers same thing. A majority of those names were once starters. They are happy to be on the bench helping this team out when needed. The Miami Heat have filled the positions that they needed filled are destined to end up winning the NBA FINALS.

http://www.nba.com...
http://espn.go.com...
http://espn.go.com...
m93samman

Con

Thanks for your response.

===> INTRO <===

To begin, let's be very clear- predictability in sports is impossible, which is why there is always an underdog. Regardless of what arguments my opponent brings, none of them can lead us to believe the Heat will win; they can only help us conclude that they are currently a good team. This applies to all of his arguments. I'll provide some specific examples.

The Clemson Tigers of '07 put on a show playing college basketball for 17 games. They were undefeated! The average college season is around 30 games; per the words of ESPN:

"Just last season, the Tigers beat Mississippi State and Old Dominion on their way to a 17-0 start, one that included wins in their first three games in ACC play. You know what happened next: Clemson dropped nine of its final 13 league games and then went out in the opening round of the conference tournament, the final piece in an almost inexplicable fade from nationally ranked to the NIT." [1]

Football, anyone?

"With the Super Bowl on the line, look who had the perfection thing down Pat: Eli Manning and the road-conquering New York Giants. And what a beauty their 11th straight road victory was, a 17-14 Super Bowl win Sunday that shattered the New England Patriots' unblemished season. In one of the biggest upsets in Super Bowl history, Manning, New York's unlikely Mr. Cool, hit Plaxico Burress on a 13-yard fade with 35 seconds left. It was the Giants' fourth consecutive postseason away win and the first time the Patriots tasted defeat in more than a year." [2]

When all is said and done, we must keep in mind that NOTHING can help us make an accurate prediction in sports.

==== CONTENT ====
o Refutations
o Summary
o Sources
===============

===> REFUTATIONS <===

C1: Expectations and Fan base

As regards the expectations point, this argument, I would argue, flows Con, because it proves that the Heat are inconsistent. Their first 17 games were barely split in favor of winning (9-8), and this was only because they face teams with losing records a majority of the time. Their record against teams above .500 was 2-7, which is rather disappointing when they crushed teams with losing records (mostly), with a 10-1 record against them. [3]

The argument from the fan base is weak, and is merely a Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, which is my personal favorite- I'm from Texas [4]. It can be disregarded.

C2: Star Power & C3: Bench

Star Power is a poor argument; over 90% of the teams that make it into the playoffs have a star player or two, which makes it a non-unique argument to the Heat. We can look at the top 8 teams from the East and West [5].

~EAST~ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~WEST~

Boston . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . San Antonio

Miami . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dallas

Chicago . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Los Angeles

Orlando . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Utah

Atlanta . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Oklahoma City

New York . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Denver

Indiana . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . New Orleans

Milwaukee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Portland

All of these teams have outstanding players, and if my opponent requests I can list them off, but I don't think this is necessary. Moreover, most of these teams have impressive depth charts, and the Miami Heat would not pose a problem to them at all.

===> SUMMARY <===

History tells us never to count a man out. For all we know, Blake Griffin and the Clippers could rise out of the Western ashes to the top and take over the league, possibly win several championships under the leadership of the young Griffin and attract a fan base large enough to make them millions and sign off future free agents Carmelo Anthony and David West, for example [6]. Or, Monte Ellis and Stephon Curry of the Warriors could similarly steady their game and end up as All-Star selections, surprising us all and snatching a title that the Warriors have not had an opportunity since 1975 [7].

No matter what arguments are brought up, concluding that "The Miami Heat will win the NBA Finals" is far fetched and overly ambitious, which is why I urge a Con vote regarding this resolution.

Although I do like their chances...

I wish my opponent luck, and everyone a happy 2011.

===> SOURCES <===

[1] http://sports.espn.go.com...

[2] http://nbcsports.msnbc.com...

[3] http://espn.go.com...

[4] http://www.fallacyfiles.org...

[5] http://www.nba.com...

[6] http://sports.espn.go.com...

[7] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
sportsarrazi317

Pro

Answer to his intro.
Predictability is definitely not impossible. If you take a look at when sports predictability is right. The New England Patriots of a couple years ago. They were predicted to win the Super Bowl and what do you know they did. Spain was predicted to win Euro cup in soccer and they did. They were predicted to win the World Cup and what do you know...They did. The Celtics in the 60's. The Lakers in the early 2000's. They were predicted to win and they did. So clearly predictability is possible and it can happen. Just as all of these examples happened. If you would like to provide even further examples just tell me, and I can.

Second to his argument about the Clemson Tigers. This is an isolated incident. Agreed that was a tragic downfall but the chances of this happening to the Heat are so minimal. I would greatly appreciate it if my opponent could see the schedule for the Clemson Tigers that year. I guarantee those games they played weren't against high quality teams. As well as who did they play in the first round. Were they expected to win?

My answer to his refutation about my first contention. As I read the article that HE provided it continues to say that is to early to worry[1]. And that even teams like the Lakers are struggling against good teams and dominating bad teams. Clearly he is making it bigger than it is. As well as if you take a look at the Heat past schedule during their 14-1 win streak. Two really good teams that they defeated stand out. The New Orleans Hornets and the Los Angeles Lakers. Both of those teams were defeated by double digits. This shows the Heat are coming around and can defeat quality teams. So his refutation should be disregarded [2].
Could my opponent tell me how my fan base argument is a Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.

C2: Star Power

My opponent talks about how star power isn't unique to the Miami Heat. Well actually it is. See it is very simple. According to my opponent all good teams have at least one maybe even two star players on their team. Well the Miami Heat has three star players. Let's take a look at the Miami Heat depth chart. They have Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh. Two of those players are two of the top three players in the league. The last one Chris Bosh is in at least the top 25. According to my opponent every team that makes the playoffs has one maybe two meanwhile the Miami Heat have three. This clearly shows the Miami Heat are a powerful team and when they work in harmony they have the ability to win games and eventually the Finals. My opponent says that these teams have impressive depth charts. How many of these teams have a bench that has a clear starter and has the potential to be an all star on any other team. A point guard who was a starter on a national championship team and sunk the game winning shot against his counterpart on the bulls Derrick Rose. How many have a solid starter for many years on the Grizzlies before coming to the Heat to play backup to ensure no one gets to tired. No one, no one has a bench quite like the Heat do. Obviously when a team has this solid of a depth chart they will soon be able to win the Finals.

My opponent talks about how Griffin and the Clippers could win. They could but in a couple years. I am talking about who is going to win the NBA Finals this year. Not in 5 years, and if I wanted that debate I would have put that. Now can my opponent find me one time when a team in their rebuilding stage has come "out of the ashes" and won a championship of any kind.

[1] http://espn.go.com...
[2] http://www.nba.com...
m93samman

Con

I thank my opponent for his response, but would appreciate if more logic was applied to the argumentation made.

I'll go down the list...

===> PREDICTABILITY <===

My opponent continues pushing the fact that predictability is definitely possible, and points to 'x' number of examples. It is frightening to say he believes it is predictable; if it was, I would bet all the money I own (as would everyone else) on the sports team predicted to win each game in each and every sport. That clearly isn't the case, and for those who do choose to gamble, they often times lose thousands of dollars.

It isn't difficult, my opponent basically conceded this himself: the Giants won the Super Bowl two years ago, when the Patriots had been predicted to win long before the game.

===> FAN BASE <===

The Texas Sharpshooter is explained in the link given in the previous round. At the end of the day, it is the aforementioned fallacy because my opponent attributes winning to fans, which is untrue. My opponent and I both share the knowledge that many teams compile road winning streaks, so they win regardless of whether or not the audience cheers or boos them.

===> STAR POWER <===

Without any sources, my opponent asserts that Lebron James and Dwayne Wade are both top 3 overall; this is untrue, but I'll let it slide for the sake of argument. We go to the Boston Celtics, who are ranked higher than the Heat (point #1). They have Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett, totaling four stars which is greater than the Heat counts (point #2). Their bench contains players like Nate Robinson (who started previously for the Knicks), Glen Davis (who easily could start on a team that's short on talent like himself), and many others. As a matter of fact, this ESPN article *PREDICTS* that the Celtics will win this year. [1] My opponent's argument doesn't provide Pro with any substantial ground.

I urge a Con vote.

===> SOURCES <===

[1] http://sports.espn.go.com...
Debate Round No. 3
sportsarrazi317

Pro

Let's take a look at the key points in todays debate.
1) Star power
2) The Bench
3) Predictability

C1: Star power
The fact is the Celtics have stars, but all of whom who's prime has passed. Take a look at Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, and Kevin Garnett. All of these players are out of their "star" years. They do not put up the same amount of numbers that they used to. The Heat have three players who are putting up numbers that are improving each year. This shows that clearly in terms of "star" power the Heat are more powerful. This is similar to many of the other teams in the league. They have stars past their primes. Its the way things are. The Heat are the best team in the league and come spring time they will be the champions.

C2: Bench
The Heat Bench is very powerful. They have a very strong core. The Celtics; I will agree have a better bench. But look at how the Star power is stronger. They allow the Bench to be more successful.

C3: Predictability
Obviously like everything in the world predictability has its flaws. Things like this can be more successful than you can imagine. When a team has a lineup like this there is nothing to do. The Heat are going to be the best team in the league by end of the season and come finals time its game over and the Heat shall be champions.

I thanks my opponent for the debate.
m93samman

Con

I thank my opponent for his argument. I guess it's too late now for him to have sources, so I guess I'll bring them in myself.

[1] http://sports.yahoo.com...

From here, the "star power" in terms of ppg favors the top two scorers of OKC over Miami. Russel Westbrook and Kevin Durant average 50ppg, while Lebron James and Dwayne Wade are at 49.

Furthermore; [2] http://www.nba.com...

Here we see that as a team, Oklahoma City has a higher ppg on average, both home AND away (substantially more when away- they have a +10 point margin on the Heat).

With what we have above, we see that (1) OKC has more star power. From my opponent's concluding remarks, he conceded that Boston has a better bench. It's a triangle, in which OKC has stats better than Miami whose stats are better than Boston (star power), but Boston's bench is greater than Miami's which is better than OKC's. It's anyone's game; statistically speaking, the Miami heat are far from winning it. Has anyone noticed they're in the Eastern conference? That's right- the historically poorer conference. There record does not reflect strength of schedule, and they oftentimes face far weaker teams than the competitive western teams like LA, OKC and the Mavericks.

I believe it is all too clear; I urge a CON vote. Thanks again.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by cwalke3408 3 years ago
cwalke3408
I wish i would have do done this debate.

i know how we can settle the tie. We watch the Bulls, who are the number 1 team in the East not Miami, beat the heat in 5 or 6 games then sportsarrazi318 will lose this debate. If somehow derrick rose got injured and not able to play and the heat win and go to the finals and win then the Pro wins.

Anyone want to do an debate on DRose being the MVP
Posted by m93samman 3 years ago
m93samman
Thanks for not reading the debate
Posted by Blank 3 years ago
Blank
in the NBA 3 good players are enough to win, especially 3 players in their prime and at the top of their positions like Wade, Bosh and Lebron. It worked for KG, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce. Dallas has the players but are too old now. maybe if their roster was about 3 years younger. Boston at least has the leadership of a young Rajon Rondo.
Posted by m93samman 3 years ago
m93samman
If it isn't obvious, the East/West rankings are from 1 to 8, top to bottom
Posted by sportsarrazi317 3 years ago
sportsarrazi317
Lol i have respect for the Mavs but dont trip the heat got this
Posted by Cobo 3 years ago
Cobo
Mavs will take em easily.
They already beat em..... Twice.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Blank 3 years ago
Blank
sportsarrazi317m93sammanTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Grape 3 years ago
Grape
sportsarrazi317m93sammanTied
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