The Instigator
I-am-a-panda
Pro (for)
Losing
8 Points
The Contender
wjmelements
Con (against)
Winning
26 Points

The Moral behind humpty dumpty aren't relevant to life.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
wjmelements
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/14/2008 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,858 times Debate No: 5977
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (25)
Votes (5)

 

I-am-a-panda

Pro

The rhyme of Humpty Dumpty that we will be using is:
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

Each side must present 2 morals they interpret from the said poem in R1 and rebut the other morals in r2, r3 is more-less free reign

Pro Moral 1: Don't sit on a wall if you're an egg:

The said poem tells us the perils of sitting on a wall if you are an egg. You could fall, break and never be put together again. Even by the king's men. However, humans aren't eggs. We don't get cracked into bowls to make delicious omelets or go hand in hand with bacon to make someone's day.

Pro Moral 2: Medieval cavalry shouldn't be used as Doctors:

The poem tells us at the end that all the kings horses and men couldn't put him back together again. Well, the kings men in hand are armed with swords and shields and dressed up in armour, as they are knights after all. Any attempts made by them would be futile. So it's up to the horses. Horses don't have opposable thumbs last time I heard. And if I were to make an egg crushing device, a hoof would do a very good job. But we no longer use medieval cavalry, so this has no relevance to modern times.
wjmelements

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate.
Further clarification:
egg- the hard-shelled reproductive body produced by a bird and especially by the common domestic chicken http://www.merriam-webster.com...[2]
cannon- A large mounted weapon that fires heavy projectiles. Cannon include guns, howitzers, and mortars. http://www.answers.com...
Humpty Dumpty was a cannon, not an egg. "It was used during the English Civil War ( 1642 - 1649) in the Siege of Colchester (13 Jun 1648 - 27 Aug 1648)." http://www.rhymes.org.uk... Eggs cannot be used in war, and were not common items of war in this time. Therefore, it is obvious that Humpty Dumpty was a cannon, not an egg, and their definitions are too far apart for the poem to be referring to both.
Other versions of the poem are:

Humpty dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty dumpty had a great fall;
Threescore men and threescore more,
Could not place Humpty as he was before. http://www.rhymes.org.uk...

The extended version:
In Sixteen Hundred and Forty-Eight
When England suffered the pains of state
The Roundheads lay siege to Colchester town
Where the King's men still fought for the crown
There One-Eyed Thompson stood on the wall
A gunner of deadliest aim of all
From St. Mary's Tower his cannon he fired
Humpty-Dumpty was its name
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again. http://en.wikipedia.org...

As it is R1, and as my opponent has already suggested, I will only be able to post the morals from this poem this round. I will rebut my opponent's morals and defend mine next round.

1. Be careful.

Obviously, it was a great loss to lose this cannon. Therefore, the reader knows to be careful. This is beneficial to life because someone who is careful not to lose things is less likely to lose them and someone who makes smarter decisions regarding safety will live a longer life and also be happier. This is relevent to life.

2. Some things can't be rebuilt.

The poem makes it clear that the cannon cannot be rebuilt. Knowing that somethings cannot be rebuilt teaches a child not to break things and that some changes are permanent. This is also relevent to life.

I will elaborate in later rounds.
Debate Round No. 1
I-am-a-panda

Pro

This round will be used to rebut my opponents points:

My opponent has presented 2 alternative poems to the one I have presented but we agreed that we will use the one I posted in R1. The imagery often used for this poem is an egg. I quote Wikipedia 'Humpty Dumpty is a character in a Nursery rhyme typically portrayed as an egg.'

Now to rebut his points:

1. Be careful.

My opponent says 'his is beneficial to life because someone who is careful not to lose things is less likely to lose them and someone who makes smarter decisions regarding safety will live a longer life and also be happier'. However, using his own theory against him. The cannon didn't fall, but it was blasted by another cannon. This does not tell the reader to be careful, as the tower was tactically the best place for the cannon, and when it was hit was just unfortunate. If, however, we interpret it as Humpty Dumpty being an egg, it is obvious then has no meaning to life as it just says an egg fell off a wall and broke, like an egg does. If you did drop an egg, it's not tragic, you just grab another. Therefore, it has no relevance to life.

2. Some things can't be rebuilt.

As I said in my previous rebuttal, Humpty Dumpty was hit by another cannon, but Humpty had to be put there tactically.
Yes, it would tell us some things can't be rebuilt. But if we interpret it as Humpty being a cannon, cannon's aren't used in war anymore. Furthermore, most children can't afford a cannon and most won't put it in a tower during a raging civil war to fend off against waves of royalists. If we interpret it as Humpty being an egg, most children know a bit of glue or duct tape won't fix an egg. To most children, an egg is of little value. If they break one, as mentioned before, they simply get another one. An egg isn't an example of an expensive or precious thong, so therefore it has no relevance to life.

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org...
wjmelements

Con

I will rebut my opponent's attacks and then prove his morals aren't the morals behind Humpty Dumpty.

First, though, it is important to note that a story made Humpty Dumpty into an egg ("Through the Looking Glass") http://www.gutenberg.org...
However, the morals behind the nursery rhyme were created when the poem was written. In its original form, Humpty Dumpty was a cannon and should be judged as such, even though later, a riddle made it an egg. http://www.straightdope.com...

To the morals:
1. Be careful.

The cannon wasn't blasted. It fell. Read the poem. So, next time, the person placing the cannon would not put it so that it would fall. Beyond the narrow meaning, "Don't put cannons all walls in a way that they would fall.", is the broader meaning, or moral: "Be careful."
People being careful is a moral that is relevant to life.

2. Some things can't be rebuilt.

Again, we must look beyond the narrow moral of, "Cannon's can't be rebuilt." to a more broader moral, which does effect life: "Some things can't be rebuilt." While a this is impractical to some objects, it is quite practical to others. The kid learns that he/she can't just smash his toys because they might never be the same again.
The kid finally understanding that somethings not being able to be rebuilt without learning the hard way is good.
In addition, this is obviously relevent to life.

Only one of my morals has to stand for me to win this debate.
My opponent's morals:
1. Don't sit on a wall if you're an egg.
This is not a moral of the poem because the poem does not mention any egg and is about a cannon.
Therefore, it is not the moral of humpty Dumpty.
2. Medieval cavalry shouldn't be used as doctors.
They weren't doctors. The "threescore men and threescore more" were people, not horses, who tried to fix the once-great-but-now-fallen cannon. Therefore, this moral doesn't apply to the poem.

I remind my audience that my opponent has the burden of proof.

My opponent has not came up with the real morals from the poem. I have, and they do apply to life quite obviously.
I again thank my opponent for this interesting debate.
One more round!
Debate Round No. 2
I-am-a-panda

Pro

I would like to note that my opponent has broken the rules of conduct I presented in R1 as he used R2 to rebut my morals AND defend his. Therefore, he should not be awarded conduct.

Now for the defence of my morals:

1.Don't sit on a wall if you're an egg.
My opponent says 'does not mention any egg and is about a cannon.'. Where, in the poem that I presented, does it mention a cannon? As far as I see it, Humpty Dumpty is presented a a fragile object that is unrepairable after falling from something. An egg is a prime example if this.

2. Medieval cavalry shouldn't be used as doctors.
As I have mentioned the poem I presented has 'all the kings horses and all the kings men'. My opponent has forgotten we are using the poem I presented in R1, therefore there were horses and men. As I mentioned, horses are not adept to fixing things, nor are armour clad men, be it cannon or egg.

Rebutting his morals:

1. Be careful.
My opponent says that it fell, and the cannon wasn't blasted. However, I quote wikipedia in saying 'The church tower was hit by enemy cannon fire and the top of the tower was blown off, sending "Humpty" tumbling to the ground.' http://en.wikipedia.org.... Now, if we take your guess that it fell, then this is a deep metaphor, that even some educated adults wouldn't interpret straight off. You see, the reader is told something fell from a tower, and like most things, something that falls from a tower breaks. Therefore, it is not relevant to life as most people won't experience heights as far up as a tower.

2. Some things can't be rebuilt.
My opponent says that children will learn they can't just break their toys and expect new ones. However, the cannon was blasted and because they could put it no where else, it doesn't teach a child not to break their toys. A more relevant interpretation is when you leave a painting out to dry, and someone takes it and rips it up. You had to put the painting there for it to dry, but someone messed it up. This teaches kids that 's*** happens', not be careful.

My opponents morals are barely applicable to life, and neither are the ones I have presented, so therefore I urge you to vote con. Thank you.
wjmelements

Con

I thank my opponent for this interesting and informative debate.

My opponent's morals are irrelevant.
1. Don't sit on a wall if you're an egg.
The poem is about a cannon.
"There One-Eyed Thompson stood on the wall
A gunner of deadliest aim of all
From St. Mary's Tower his cannon he fired
Humpty-Dumpty was its name"
Therefore, the poem is indeed about a cannon, and not an egg. My opponent figures that it implies that Humpty Dumpty is an egg; however, it is not and cannot be, as it can only be a cannon. One can easily conclude that my opponent's moral is irrelevant.

2. Medieval cavalry shouldn't be used as doctors.
Doctors don't fix cannons; they treat the sick or wounded. Therefore, medieval cavalry could not be considered to be a doctor and so this moral is also irrelevant.
Further, multiple versions of the Poem do not even mention these horses; therefore, they are obviously not important to the true theme of the poem.

However, my morals are actually found in the poem and do apply to real life.

1. Be careful.
What happened historically and what the poem was written about may contrast, but the poem clearly states,
"From St. Mary's Tower his cannon he fired
Humpty-Dumpty was its name
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall." http://en.wikipedia.org...
The poem does not mention anything about being shot; therefore, the fall being an accident is not part of the poem. The everyday reader (the toddler) assumes that Humpty Dumpty fell due to a lack of care. Therefore, the concusion in the toddler's head would be to be more careful, which is obviously the moral that counts. My opponent has conceded that being careful is relevant to life.

2. Some things can't be rebuilt.
As I have stated earlier, in the poem, the cannon was not shot, it fell. It was broken. It could not be rebuilt. That was the story. From this, the children know that somethings can't be rebuilt. Further, my opponent has conceded that this moral is relevant to life.
My opponent has also conceded that 'This teaches kids that s*** happens'. This is applicable to life, and my opponent has agreed to it. Children may learn at a ripe young age that accidents happen.

There are morals behing Humpty Dumpty that are relevant to life.
In conclusion, the voter should vote CON. My opponent had burden of proof, but failed to prove that there are no morals in Humpty Dumpty that are relevant to life.

Thank you for reading this debate. Vote and leave a reason for decision.
Debate Round No. 3
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
*looks back*

Good times.
Posted by Bricheze 8 years ago
Bricheze
If the said object is anything, as we obviously don't know for sure; then it is applicable. Where in the this poem does it state that humpty is an egg? Where does it say he has egg like qualities?:
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
And all the kings horse and all the kings men
Could not put humpty back together gain.

All that you can infer from this poem, without bringing in prior or outside sources (Which you clearly asked the debater not to do in the debate) is that:

a) Humpty fell
b) if he or it hadn't been sitting on a wall he wouldn't of fallen
c) He was probably worth something (AKA the king sent all of his horses and men (Horses for speed and men could have been doctors, engineers, etc) to fix humpty)
d) and he or it was impossible to fix

From these inferences we can make humpty dumpty relevant to life by saying 'Do not put your valuable or invaluable items in precarious situations, do not let them be harmed. Because if they are harmed they may be impossible to fix.'

You are assuming he is an egg, without looking at the poem you brough to attention. Some childrens book writer somewhere made humpty and egg; but that doesn't mean it was originally meant when the author wrote this poem.

(And don't you hate cleaning up eggs, anyways. That's the worst!)
Posted by I-am-a-panda 8 years ago
I-am-a-panda
Bricheze wrote:
>>And as it is an illusion it stands for, "Do not allow things to fall and break, because they may serve to be impossible to fix" Now, it doesn't imply, in this illusion, that you have an army to fix your toy or whatever broke, just that it might be impossible to fix so don't break it in the first place.'<<

1. If the said object is an egg, it isn't applicable to life as eggs are extremely cheap.
2. If the said object is a cannon, cannon's aren't used anymore, and aren't for sale, so a person, besides a historical auctioneer, couldn't apply it's price to life and most people will never own a cannon.
And most times the said object is an egg.
Posted by Bricheze 8 years ago
Bricheze
Oh, and anyone can edit wikipedia web pages--so it isn't a good reference; and never will be.
Posted by Bricheze 8 years ago
Bricheze
But, we weren't looking in a childrens book, we were reading it off your debate and pretending it had never existed before we saw the debate. That's how we make non-biased decisions.

This poem is an illusion. And as it is an illusion it stands for, "Do not allow things to fall and break, because they may serve to be impossible to fix" Now, it doesn't imply, in this illusion, that you have an army to fix your toy or whatever broke, just that it might be impossible to fix so don't break it in the first place.
Posted by I-am-a-panda 8 years ago
I-am-a-panda
In regards for using wikipedia as a source, I couldn't find anywhere else with the background to this poem. It is also a very useful source. It is permitted so I don't know why I shouldn't be allowed use it. At least I use links (Burn!)

In regards to you commenting me on my points, my task was to present 2 interpretations of Humpty Dumpty that cannot be applied to life. All the kings horses and all the kings men would imply they were knights, or at least warriors. As for my point on don't sit on a wall if you're an egg, the facts may say it was a cannon, but I explicitly said at the start we were using 1 version, in which there is no implication of what the said object is. If you look at any children's book ( I mention it is a children's rhyme), it shows you an egg.
Posted by Bricheze 8 years ago
Bricheze
Wikipedia isn't a good source, panda you should stop relying on it so heavily. Also, you constantly said that the first poem had to do with an egg, but no where in the poem doesn't mention an egg. In fact, for all we know it could have been actually talking about the king in that version. You said that an egg was a good example as it is fragile. But, it didn't say in the poem that humpty was fragile and I highly doubt the king would send all of his horses and men to tend to a broken egg. Therefore an egg is simply not worth enough to make a good example.

And the last point I would like to bring up is 'all the kings horses and all the kings men' doesn't necessarily mean that they were warriors. It could mean that all of the kings best doctors tried to fix the person, or that all the kings best mechanic's tried to fix the cannon. But either way they failed. Meaning that yes indeed, some things can not be fixed after they are broken; no matter how hard you try. Which can be brought up an awful lot in life. And shows children to be more careful with their possessions, 'don't let the dog run outside in front of the car', 'don't put the expensive glass on the edge of the table', and so on.
Posted by I-am-a-panda 8 years ago
I-am-a-panda
Yeah, but she's terrible. She told us to get the merchant of Venice, then told us to get Romeo and Juliet. We forcefully told her that we already have the merchant of Venice. she got embarrassed. Sher also has an unhappy face rating on ratemyteacher.com : http://ie.ratemyteachers.com...
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
No BE verbs, I-a-a-p. Do you even have an English teacher?
Posted by I-am-a-panda 8 years ago
I-am-a-panda
My argument was to give stupid points that can't be relevant to life at all.
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Vote Placed by paramore102 8 years ago
paramore102
I-am-a-pandawjmelementsTied
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Vote Placed by Bricheze 8 years ago
Bricheze
I-am-a-pandawjmelementsTied
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