The Instigator
Aerogant
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
ChunxTheSane
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

The Most Accurate Description of Consciousness

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
ChunxTheSane
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/12/2014 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,170 times Debate No: 58886
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (35)
Votes (3)

 

Aerogant

Pro

The idea of consciousness is based upon personality. It is created by creating a mind through multiple assets, that are separated by color. Colors define us, depending on which color we interact with. They also share the duality, that the Universe presents. Red can be hatred, anger and warning, or love, passion and strength. This is why every good emotion, has a bad counterpart. Everything good we do, has a back door for those who have worse intentions. When a planet is created, the core emits electromagnetic waves that are similar to the aurora borealis, or the northern lights. These colors that we have observed, that most would accuse of being the aura, are the "personality", or the "consciousness" that we have, which makes everything we do seem "human". The reason why we have more control, live in the moment, and make decisions to interact with the Universe as if we were the children of this Universe, to play with its toys, is because we are the Universe, role-playing itself through what we perceive to be our "own" body. However, only few people have the self-humility to accept they know nothing, but have access to a tool that can give everything, when use properly.

Consciousness, is like the ocean. There is the conscious; there is the subconscious. It is invaluable to understand the cross-similarity between consciousness and the open sea. The way they behave. They both allow reflection - they flow, and can become disturbed / distorted. Both are dependent on electrical currents. Both are great examples for expressing the nature of emotions. When we are "conscious", we refer to it as the surface. The consciousness, is like light - the subconscious, is like darkness. When we take pictures, which are still undeveloped, we use water to reveal the picture. Water is more than something we consume - it is everything; our consciousness; our emotion ; our existence. Every drop of water is older than this planet, itself. Things come from water - things return back to water. Everything may seem like it's not water, but it is only existent because of water. We have amoebas within ourselves, because we contain water, and these amoebas create personality, in a way that will blow your mind. They create serotonin chemicals, which is what allows us to dream the beautiful places that we do - or the very irritating nightmares. It is made of 99% water. That is saying that 99% water, is creating personality within us all.

So what is consciousness? It is a conglomeration of water, color, flow, reaction that comes together as a system of collective experience that are moved and persuaded by thereof.

-

Have you ever noticed that the human mind can relate to the waves of water; the flickering of a candle; the density of light; the raging eruption of a volcano, and so on? Now, think of three more things: We wash our hands like a fly. Bees behave like electrons. And, our experience being created by photo receptors found inside of our eyes, that were formed billions of years ago before stars. You don't know that everything that seems "different", is really another piece of the puzzle that is the Universe.

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Everything in this Universe, from water, to colors, to darkness, all have a reflective state of existence which is based on the whole process that the Universe consists of. Everything we experience, is everything the Universe is. Everything we are - is the Universe. Everything we do, say and think, can be cross-referenced to the behavioral patterns of this Universe. Consciousness is merely us, being the Universe, observing itself through naivety and recreation via the new and the old, or the birth and the death.
ChunxTheSane

Con

Consciousness is experiencing. Consciousness is indeed a reflective. Consciousness is something you can"t quite describe, When I think about consciousness I realize that its there. Atoms consist mostly of empty space. If a proton was scaled to the size of a golf ball the election would be really small and miles away. All matter consists of empty space.

Consciousness is like a light shining through a prism and creating multiple colors, aspects, and emotions; but consciousness is not the colors, consciousness is more like the light itself. I have a personality, which is a color of the light I have an ego, a subconscious, a collective unconscious. That consciousness in which many forms of life experience, is the light.

while the body, the ego, the mind, the personality, are like prisms, and the colors of light is the "I" experiencing this moment. The "I" that is the "colors" of the subconscious, the ego, the shadow, persona. Consciousness is what I am experiencing. I am consciousness we all are I assume, I speak for myself when I describe myself, I describe things that are not my consciousness. I am a being that is experiencing consciousness.

The metaphors take away from the idea of just being. In a sense they are true but they take away from the indescribable mystery, like the rainbow its hard to tell where one color ends and another begins. Don"t forget a metaphor points to the truth, if you get to caught up in the metaphor, the truth will be blurred. And the truth is that an accurate description of consciousness is impossible to describe. Every individual has their own experiences, who is to say that any individual"s description of consciousness is more accurate than anyone else"s?

Serotonins do not make us dream, dreaming has more to do with melatonin and the other chemical the pineal gland produces.
Light is a better metaphor for consciousness than water. But both metaphors pale in the comparison to the actual phenomena of consciousness.

I would say that every individual experiencing is a universe or an aspect of the universe. Everything I smell, taste feel and perceive is my own universe, or just a facet of this universe. When I die, my experience of this universe will cease to be but the universe will still exist. Therefore, everything we experience is not the universe, I don"t know what the universes behavioral patterns are. The Universe is cold and indifferent, guided by rules of science. We get meaning from these patterns from ourselves. The universe I experience comes from what I perceive though the subjective lens of myself.

Sure matter acts both as a wave and a particle depending on if it is being perceived or not. But that does not mean we understand it or control it. The universe will still be here, as in matter, such as suns and giant stars. The universe can exist without us. We just give a lot more meaning to the universe and the ideas we project onto the universe. We don"t know

A description of consciousness is indescribable. Because as soon as you put a word to consciousness you diminish what it really is. Consciousness is subjective. We cannot separate ourselves from consciousness because it is the cloth in the blurry tapestry of experience, emotions, perceptions, thoughts, and personalities, called I. Consciousness is elusive it"s hard to pin down what it is and what it is not.

There is truly no accurate description to consciousness, and because I know I can"t form a truly accurate description of consciousness, but in recognizing that consciousness cannot be accurately described, my description of consciousness is slightly more accurate than Aerogant"s, But so insignificantly in that both descriptions pale in the actual experience of consciousness, if you can even call consciousness an experience.
Debate Round No. 1
Aerogant

Pro

You don't seem to be debating, either. You are begging the question, which is an unhealthy form of any type of thinking. At least you're trying, by illustrating a different point of view by using light as a pronouncement of consciousness, rather than the colors themselves, but you could not be anymore wrong because light is merely the result of life and energy flowing - it has no indication of how each color already relates to us emotionally, depending on what mood we are in when we observe each color. Light is when electricity is empowered, like stars; psychologically, this can be demonstrated by analyzing the behavioral patterns of mankind, and how losing control over their energy results in a metaphoric black hole which causes them to fall indefinitely, vying for nothing and feeding off of everything, exactly how a star loses control, dies and creates a black hole or super nova, like those people who go on a killing spree to end it with a big bang. Most people don't know how to escape this vicious cycle, which again, points to the right direction of my consensus, as when people finally escape, they create a new beginning.

I am aware of the melatonin chemicals, I just don't agree with the different name, just like I don't agree with how positively and negatively charged atoms are called ions, rather than atom + or atom -, or how the bone material that creates pearls are just a variant form of the bone material for the human body. People need to stop calling high similarities completely unsimilar names. It is that simple.

Consciousness is not the experience - consciousness is the experiencing resulting as an experience, that we assume to be one, but yet is not. We are observers which observe the already observed world. Our brain is already built to make all the connections we do, because it already knows everything. It matters what we "will" the brain to connect with. We are not the system, nor are we the controller - we are the wires and the connections which make it so. We are inside it all, and experiencing it from the inside, which is why we can relate to the Universe inside out, by thinking outwards and reflecting from within by managing the information we've absorbed. The Universe defines us - we do not define it.

To say that "we" are experiencing, is like saying that "we" are thinking, in spite of the notion of which ideas come to us - we do not come to them. When we think, it matters what is consciously available, and what is not. It does not matter what we want to be available, but rather how willful we are towards what information we want at the time. If we think deep enough and patient enough, things will eventually surface - most of the time, however, things surface without our consent. We are not controlling anything; we are the control... experiencing the controlling. We are not the ocean, but we are the waves and the motion of the ocean. We are not the volcano, but we are the rupturing and the explosive tendency of this volcano. We harbor the energies via reaction and connection via will and "control", which is merely us following the governing rules of the Universe in a way that is very inconspicuous.

We only have so much we can do with our emotions and thoughts. To say that we are experiencing, rather than being the result of an already observed experience, is to say that we are being, not benign, in spite of all the evidence which points towards the notion of which we do not know anything, we do not define ourselves, there is no "I", all of such is merely a mirage based on ignorance and misinterpretation of reality and what we assume to be "our" experience", while not acknowledging the very premise that this brain that we use already has all the connections to the Universe - it matters what we connect it to, which triggers these experiential points.

The Universe is us - therefore, consciousness and everything else can be described and cross-referenced without any effort, whence your knowledge is not literal, but metaphorical. We live in a Universe which wears cosmic masks and acts like a chameleon of the stars. It changes form, and size, but the same faculties behind it all remain.

As above, so below; from form, to faculty; to, and fro.
ChunxTheSane

Con

This is an interesting topic. I wouldn"t want to see it get dragged down by semantics With that said, melatonin and serotonins make a world of difference if you are a chemist or a neurologist. My point is, it is important to be accurate in the symbols you choose to assign meaning to an object. The more concrete the metaphor the more accurate that metaphor can convey, so long as metaphors can effectively convey an idea.

Furthermore, metaphors can be powerful, even more so when they are used to describe things that are difficult to describe. Ok I may be begging the question here. But metaphors can be dangerous, if you do get too hung up about what metaphor is the right one.
When you use a metaphor to describe something, there is no guarantee that the idea behind the metaphor was conveyed accurately. In other words, the same metaphor could convey two very different things to two different people.

Consciousness is like the concept of Tao. Trying to know consciousness let alone describe it is trying to observe the observer.
Perhaps, we are all one consciousness.
Perhaps, this "I" is just a mirage.
This thing called being is very profound.
But I am still here, I get hungry and If I don"t eat I know I"ll die. (whatever death means.) in fact, at some point. I will die.
If this "I" is a mirage it is a damn convincing one.

This is just a ride, but I want this to be the most enjoyable ride possible. (another tip of the hat to Bill Hicks).

Each of us is a tapestry of experiences, thoughts, feelings, memories, but there is something else. The part of me that makes decisions (My Will, perhaps.). Consciousness is not a weaver of this tapestry; conscious is a part of the tapestry. When you try to take the tapestry apart to find consciousness the tapestry just unravels.

Maybe we are here to see ourselves. We project so much of ourselves onto the world.
We are trying to see our reflection in wavy pond by projecting ourselves on our surroundings.

There is much knowledge to gain from metaphors, but they only work when they take on a literal form. Knowledge of the literal makes way for communicating the abstract, left and right brain acting together.

Do not ignore the synchronicities, the archetypes, or even just the moment you are in now. Just do not ignore everything else. This is advice I give to myself. I try to find that balance between left and right brain. I have to sometimes grit my teeth and make myself do tedious and boring, other times I"m focused too much on the mundane and stop trying so hard, and get more in touch with my intuition.

The most important advice I always try to abide by is.
Question Everything.

There is a consciousness, there is a will. I dare say that I have my own free will. But I don"t think any description of consciousness is accurate. You cannot pin it down. I do not know what you mean when you say light is electricity empowered. Or that we have amoebas inside us and they create our personality. When I read this it does not describe consciousness to me. Maybe it describes it to you, but not the rest of the world.

To say that you have the most accurate description of consciousness is self-defeating, because consciousness dwells within our subjective experiences, memories, thoughts, ect.

If I thought your description of conscious is the most accurate then I would say so. If your description of consciousness is truly the most accurate, you should be working on getting it published. I still fail to understand what consciousness is exactly.

You should keep trying, though. I felt at some spots you were pointing to some deep truths.
Food for thought.
Debate Round No. 2
Aerogant

Pro

I explained conscious, by cross-referencing the behavioral patterns of water and conscious; and handing over the knowledge that the dreams we have are made from chemicals made of 99% water, so clearly water has all of the possibilities to be our consciousness: it reflect, it flows, it changes form, it overlaps, both have a light and dark side; a surface and depth; both share the same pattern of having normal creatures near the surface, and nightmarish creatures below the surface; both rely heavily on electricity; both might even be blue, hence the consciousness, when it's faced, causes depression, which is not a mental condition, but a point in becoming. I was depressed for 5 years, in those years, I became a god upon my world, leashed my inner monster, and reigned my emotions. I simply did not submit to the pressure that others have much difficulty in dealing with. A man once said something along the lines of not fearing the metaphor of a mental hurricane, as it merely is blowing away all that is frail and weak, leaving all that is strong and productive to stay. Depression is a euphemism for existential crisis - I suggest people to heed this truth. It's very important to face our emotions, rather than fear it as some medical abnormality. We react the way we do for a reason - a natural one.

I know what psychopathy is (a dying star that just won't let go). I know what greed is (galaxies devouring other galaxies). I know what ignorance is (dark matter). I know what insanity is (the black hole). I am very confident that I also know what consciousness is (water).

I cannot agree that there is an "I", or a "Will". This entire Universe created us, shaped us and defined us. We merely experience the already experienced world. We are merely colors within an already painted world. We are not being; we are becoming. We are not living, we are learning. We are not alive; we are naive. We know nothing. The brain knows everything. All points are experiential. Where we go, we react. We react based on information we have gained. Nothing we say, think or do is our own property - we can only conjure the concept of ownership, but like the child that says they are not scared before they reach the edge of the pool, soon realizes that they do fear; they just have the ability to deny themselves of the truth. Humans do one thing more than any other thing: make things up. But as I like to say, "We fight for things we made up; Our shadow within fight for things we gave up."
ChunxTheSane

Con

That is a much better description. I could see consciousness being water.
ignorance as dark matter is pretty good.
but dying stars that won't let go. I know of no dying stars that won't let go.
To my knowledge galaxies do not collide with other galaxies, they merge into each other.

Still I feel like you may be getting close to the mark when describing consciousness as water.

I have been in holes i had to claw my way out of and became a better person for it as well.
There are a few major times I had existential crisis. I'm always trying to find a balance between being adaptive to survive in this world, and not being a boring zombie, or just not myself. It is always a struggle.

I have become a perhaps a hero upon my own world. I am far from being a god. and there is no guarantee of success.
I have a limited control of myself. I keep the monster inside in check. I can recognize my shadow. Still I have made mistakes, and I will continue to do so.

I think I am an I or a Will. I think I exist and the universal consciousness (or whatever you want to call it) both exist. They are really two sides of the same coin. If there really wasn't and "I" or "will" for that matter than they would be useless words. Hell, all words would be useless, and there would be no point in communication at all. We would all just be one being. It's like how matter is both a wave and a particle. Consciousness is both universal and individual, It is fire and water. water being the I, and fire being the will, it is the play of light and shadow.

That is why I went with the light metaphor. the universe is a light. and we are like like refracted light, translucent.

Mental hurricanes, mental enemas, it is good to have experiences that clear our baggage. Just be careful of the being your own god thing. I know I have made the mistake of having an experience that felt (i don't like using this word but..) like I was getting close to my own divinity. But later I got the divinity I felt tied in way too much with my ego, which can lead to self righteousness. It is really hard to tell when you made that mistake.

It is a hard trap to get out of when it is an ego trap that says you are beyond ego.
When you think, "I am enlightened", means you are not enlightened.
I speak solely from my experiences.
Actually I wouldn't want to be enlightened my whole life.
I wouldn't want to stay as one universal mind.
It would get boring.

For those reason I like to view myself a hero in my own world. just trying to claw my way out. This is just one of the better images I give myself sometime. everything is fluid, like water. everything is always changing.

"Instead of clearing his own heart the zealot tries to clear the world."
R13; Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces

I learned from my mistakes, and I am pulling myself out of an elaborate trap I made for myself.

But I am the most sane human being to ever exist the voices inside my head said that I am the most sane, and all I have to do is listen to them. Which bring me back to Joseph Campbell,

"As you proceed through life, following your own path, birds will [crap] on you. Don't bother to brush it off.
Getting a comedic view of your situation gives you spiritual distance.
Having a sense of humor saves you."

Way to go Debate,org! censorship, I can't even fu*king say the word sh*t!
Saturn comes back around.
Debate Round No. 3
Aerogant

Pro

I do like this Joseph Campbell. They are very similar to some of the things I wrote during my transcendence (e.g rising from animosity, hatred, fear and rationalization), like "Man watches the world burn, because they cannot afford to watch themselves burn."

What is "I", is merely the separation of what "Is". When you let go, everything snaps together. Just like when you meditate, you snap into your subconscious. You don't fall into it. You don't drift off into it. You snap into it, because life, the Universe, is all about snapping things together, hence how magnets behave.

You are right that fire is drive. That's why passion is fiery and explosive; or anger is distorted and discontented.

You are still wrong about light. We are the Universe; the Universe is dark, much like our subconscious. Light is merely revealing, identifying, showing of object and substance. It does not have any form of consciousness, hence it has no color, personality or multi-faceted system. It's just light on; light off. Consciousness is color, water and alternation between experiential points, set out throughout the world at an atomic level, much like how our skin is consisted entirely of small bumps. Light is the revealing, the acknowledging the showing of information. It does not process information. It does not process being, emotion or reaction. Notice how we have no real answers for ourselves - that all answers are the result of cross-referencing an already functioning Universe. This Universe defines us - we do not define it. Ideas come to us - we do not come to them. Therefore we are the subconscious, the darkness, the becoming and processing. Everything else is merely projected, misinterpreted and abused.

Galaxies devour each other, as what may not be readily apparent to an untrained eye, is the process of the Universe devouring parts of itself again and again, because life is naive, but strives altogether. Knowing what the galaxies are doing can be cross-referential by applying psychopathy and greed to your table of analysis. Thus when a psychopath feeds, like a vampire (metaphors point to many truths), it is because the psychopath is hungry for life, but does not recognize itself becoming unsatiated - the reason why the hunger occurs, is because chemical imbalance and fissures cause ruptures in the entire "design" of any source of life, which causes it to alienated itself from the rest of the Universe. This is why we have very crazy people existing in our world - much like we have very crazy cosmic patterns in the Universe.
ChunxTheSane

Con

ChunxTheSane forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Aerogant

Pro

Aerogant forfeited this round.
ChunxTheSane

Con

ChunxTheSane forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
35 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Aerogant 2 years ago
Aerogant
Irrelevant and off-topic are used by people that don't see the big picture. Once you see the big picture like I do, you will never see the world so unfairly again. Everything in life is complimenting everything else in life - everything exists because everything else that exists around it. This is wisdom -this is what you need to learn. What you are doing now, is not learning - it's regurgitating and circulating.
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
again an ad hominid, and im calling things that are irrelevant a red herring.
Posted by Aerogant 2 years ago
Aerogant
You call everything red herring when you disagree with it, because you refuse to accept that you're naive and wrong no matter which way you turn the angle. You are debating with someone that knows people more than they will know themselves - someone that can wake up and figure profound ideas by themselves, to then research it to see if I was correct; finding out I was more than correct, I expanded on an already given notion to the point of genius. I don't mind you treating me as you do, the only reason why you do is because you fail to realize that your mind is very weak and unstable for strong discussions like the ones I write out. I don't blame you, though, this Universe is truly profound and it does start to get confusing when you realize how the Universe overlaps itself and tends to look like its contradicting itself via contrasts.
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
I like the fact I start to read the post and then go, NOPE, another red herring. cant you stay on topic? "The chemicals which cause stars to explode, are the same ones which allow our emotions to be calm or rage." you're like a red herring yourself
Posted by Aerogant 2 years ago
Aerogant
You say that, while many books, poems, music and art have inspired people more than being literal - and need I remind you that taking a metaphysical Universe literally prevents you from ever being truly intelligent? Of course you did not know that - you haven't escaped from the label game, so you still live in the wrong sense of reality. It's a pity, really. I wish more people woke up from this illusion and saw that they were born from the stars - that the human body contains elements from the stars, themselves. The chemicals which cause stars to explode, are the same ones which allow our emotions to be calm or rage.
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
... still doesn't apply, its like if I said, ice-cream melts like nature has oranges... its off topic and doesn't refute me. and yea its a fallacy, one of which you don't understand, and you don't even know what it means.
Posted by Aerogant 2 years ago
Aerogant
Bees behaving like electrons, leads to why water behaves like consciousness. There's no smoke and mirrors here, except your own ignorance.
Posted by Aerogant 2 years ago
Aerogant
Perhaps it's because the fallacy, as you call it, is not a fallacy, but a fact that is based on decades of knowledge and wisdom. That everything that appears "off-topic" and "which lacks argument", is simply the result of you being young and naive, attempting to argue with someone that breathes philosophy; that knows consciousness, subconsciousness, psychopathy, humanity, pride, passion, humility, colors, characters and paradigms through and through with a way of thinking that is beyond average man that involves omni-cross-references - this requires you to see all the world as one cosmic puzzle that is never completely, which seems whole throughout these pieces. Very few people can do the basics of this extremely advanced system of thought.
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
show me how the bees apply to the argument of you using a fallacy to debate.
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
a red herring:introducing irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand; That is exactly what the bees are. and do it, bring show how the bees apply to the fact you used a fallacy to debate, and drew the debate off course.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
AerogantChunxTheSaneTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con abandons, Pro gets conduct. Con has unanswered arguments and pro didnt fulfill bop. he also has run on arguments.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
AerogantChunxTheSaneTied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
AerogantChunxTheSaneTied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff