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The Nazi Holocaust was worse than the "Vatican's Holocaust".

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Started: 12/10/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
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This debate is based on a statement made by Dirrty.Harry in the philosophy forum.

The Resolution is: "The Nazi Holocaust was worse than the "Vatican's Holocaust"."
No lawyering
No semantics
No new arguments in R4


The extermination of Serbs, Roma and Jews by the Ustashe under Ante Pavelic was by some metrics worse than the extermination of Jews under Adolf Hitller, I take this view for the following reasons:

1. A greater percentage of the total Serb population were exterminated than were Jews.
2. The barbarity of the means used to kill and torture were worse.
3. Less attention is given to this historic event in comparison to the Jewish Holocaust.
4. Less effort was made by the Allies to capture and try those guilty.

It is my position that if these can be demonstrated as true then I win the debate.
Debate Round No. 1


BTW, points 3 & 4 don't make it worse.

If this looks familiar, it's because it's based on another 1 of my other debates.

The Holocaust:

The Holocaust -" A programe of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory.[3][4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[5] Over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]
Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition,[8][9] and some use the common noun "holocaust" to describe other Nazi mass murders, for example Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, and homosexuals.[10][11] Recent estimates based on figures obtained since the fall of the Soviet Union indicates some ten to 11 million civilians and prisoners of war were intentionally murdered by the Nazi regime.[12][13]". (1)

Some Distinctive features:

1)Institutional collaboration.

2) Ideology and scale:
"German historian Eberhard J"ckel wrote in 1986 that one distinctive feature of the Holocaust was that
never before had a state with the authority of its responsible leader decided and announced that a specific human group, including its aged, its women and its children and infants, would be killed as quickly as possible, and then carried through this resolution using every possible means of state power.[23]

Anyone with three or four Jewish grandparents was to be exterminated without exception. In other genocides, people were able to escape death by converting to another religion or in some other way assimilating. This option was not available to the Jews of occupied Europe,[26] unless their grandparents had converted before 18 January 1871. All persons of recent Jewish ancestry were to be exterminated in lands controlled by Germany.[27]" (1)

3)Extermination camps:
"The use of camps equipped with gas chambers for the purpose of systematic mass extermination of peoples was a unique feature of the Holocaust and unprecedented in history. Never before had there existed places with the express purpose of killing people en masse. These were established at Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Jasenovac, Majdanek, Maly Trostenets, Sobibor, and Treblinka."(1)

4)Medical Experiments:
"The most notorious of these physicians was Dr. Josef Mengele, who worked in Auschwitz. His experiments included placing subjects in pressure chambers, testing drugs on them, freezing them, attempting to change eye color by injecting chemicals into children's eyes, and various amputations and other surgeries.[29] The full extent of his work will never be known because the truckload of records he sent to Dr. Otmar von Verschuer at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute was destroyed by von Verschuer.[30] Subjects who survived Mengele's experiments were almost always killed and dissected shortly afterwards." (1)

5) Concentration and labor camps:
"After 1939, the camps increasingly became places where Jews and POW"s were either killed or made to work as slave laborers, undernourished and tortured.[97] It is estimated that the Germans established 15,000 camps and sub camps

The transportation of prisoners was often carried out under horrifying conditions using rail freight cars, in which many died before reaching their destination.

Extermination through labor was a policy of systematic extermination " camp inmates would literally be worked to death, or worked to physical exhaustion, when they would be gassed or shot.

The labor was in 12 to 14 hour shifts. Before and after, there were roll calls that could sometimes last for hours, with prisoners regularly dying of exposure.[101]" (1)


I believe that there are 2 parts to this; a) Individual. b) National
Individual - Since the end of the Holocaust to the present day the Holocaust has been dealt with in the field of psychology.
The effects of the holocaust is not limited to survivors themselves, but to their children as well.
There are numerous papers & books written on the subject.(2)
Without going into details & studies I'll just give 2 quotes:
"The Holocaust has had a deep effect on the children of survivors, with parents who were irreparably damaged, both physically and psychologically. They grew up in the shadow of psychic conflicts stemming from bereavement, mourning, guilt feelings and anxiety, which often resulted in over protection and over expectation..."(3)

It should be noted that the effects are now being found in the 3rd generation as well.(4)

There is unfortunately not as much written on the psychological effects of the holocaust on the Jewish nation as a whole.
It is inconceivable to me that the holocaust has not impacted the Jewish nation.
Perhaps this can be best seen in the Jewish tendency to be somewhat paranoid, suspicious, & distrustful at times.
How can it be otherwise, when they experienced the most civilized of cultures turn against them for no reason, & to our ever lasting shame no one came to their aid (5).
I know of only 1 book written on the topic (6).

One final loss is the loss to the advancement of society & humanity.
To quote Former President John Adams:
" I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation..."
- John Adams From a letter to F. A. Van der Kemp [Feb. 16, 1808] Pennsylvania Historical Society (7)

There is nice essay by Mark twain called "Concerning the Jews" (8) with the same point but more elaborate.

I think some statistics to prove the point:

Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 800 individuals,[2] of whom at least 20% were Jews, although Jews comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population.[3](9)

Jews are a famously accomplished group. They make up 0.2 percent of the world population, but 54 percent of the world chess champions, 27 percent of the Nobel physics laureates and 31 percent of the medicine laureates. Jews make up 2 percent of the U.S. population, but 21 percent of the Ivy League student bodies, 26 percent of the Kennedy Center honorees, 37 percent of the Academy Award-winning directors, 38 percent of those on a recent Business Week list of leading philanthropists, 51 percent of the Pulitzer Prize winners for nonfiction."(12)

From Jews we have modern psychology (Freud), physics (Einstein), Google, etc.

How many such people have we lost ?
How much more we could have had from them if not for the holocaust?

(5) While Six Million Died: A Chronicle of American Apathy (Random House, 1968). by Arthur D. Morse


Dirty.Harry forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2


Extend all arguments.


Dirty.Harry forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3


1Devilsadvocate forfeited this round.


Dirty.Harry forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
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Vote Placed by DoctorDeku 3 years ago
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Vote Placed by Xerge 3 years ago
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