The Instigator
Adam2
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
ChrisF
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Nazis were not racist (or they were racist against white Nordics)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/28/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,416 times Debate No: 53534
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

Adam2

Pro

First is for acceptance. I will be arguing that the Nazis were not racists against most people. The only people they were racist against were Nordic Europeans.
ChrisF

Con

Challenge accepted. And I know that the first round isn't for arguments, but I'd just like to mention the fact that the title of the debate contradicts itself, as it says that Nazis were not racist, except for when they were racist. However, I get the meaning behind the title, so I will not be using this as an argument.

As the Germans say, bringen es auf (bring it on).
Debate Round No. 1
Adam2

Pro

Let's begin
I will start with a picture.
This is a picture of Jesse Owens and Luz Long. Luz Long was a member of not just the German team in the Olympics. He was part of the Nazi team. He participated in the Nazi olympics. He helped Owens succeed. It's not a coincidence that we was a support the Reich (and their allies in Italy, the Fascists).
http://upload.wikimedia.org...

Here is a picture of Ludwig along with Owens and a member who played for Japan, also Germany's ally.
The audience is giving an applaud. Now for the sake of historical commentary, let's compare this to what would have happened in, say, Britian, Sweden, Denmark, or the USA. Blacks who came to the countries were treating with hatred and hostility. Teams who played in the USA that had blacks were scoffed at by the audience who rooted for the whites (Nordics in reality)-only team.

Here's a more personal picture of the two to make it more convincing
http://upload.wikimedia.org...
That doesn't look like the picture of someone who's racist against blacks now, does it?

Hitler invaded Denmark because Denmark allied themselves with Britain (both of whom, not coincidently are brutal colonial powers)
Taken from http://schoolworkhelper.net...
  • "Britain and France discussed sending troops to occupy Denmark and Norway"
  • "Hitler viewed it as a direct threat to Germany’s economy and decided to act" Does that sound like a man who loves the Nordics? I don't think so. See I believe that we have a nation of understandard students writing our history books. It's truly scary and embarassing. See it was the KKK who espouced Nordic beliefs, not the Nazis.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com...
Here's an ad in which he attacks the KKK
I rest my case for this round

ChrisF

Con

To start, I'd like to counter my opponent's arguments about the Nazis and racism, as well as point out some major flaws in his argument.

1) This is a picture of Jesse Owens and Luz Long. Luz Long was a member of not just the German team in the Olympics. He was part of the Nazi team. He participated in the Nazi olympics. He helped Owens succeed. It's not a coincidence that we was a support the Reich (and their allies in Italy, the Fascists).

This is not a picture of Jesse Owens and Luz Long. It appears to be a picture of Owens and several other athletes saluting something or somebody.

2) Here is a picture of Ludwig along with Owens and a member who played for Japan, also Germany's ally.

You didn't provide a picture here, you just moved on with your argument.

3) Here's a more personal picture of the two to make it more convincing

This is just the first picture again.

4) Now for the sake of historical commentary, let's compare this to what would have happened in, say, Britian, Sweden, Denmark, or the USA. Blacks who came to the countries were treating with hatred and hostility. Teams who played in the USA that had blacks were scoffed at by the audience who rooted for the whites (Nordics in reality)-only team.

My opponent seems to be arguing that since there is in existence a picture of a Nazi and a black man, that all Nazis are not racist. Since he mentions the United States, I'd like to present him with this picture: https://www.google.com...;, which is clearly a picture of an African American baseball player, Hank Aaron, with two white baseball players. By their uniforms, it can be judged that they are on the same team, which likely means that they had some form of a friendship. Now, does this prove that racism was nonexistant in the United States? Of course not!

5) "Hitler viewed it as a direct threat to Germany’s economy and decided to act" Does that sound like a man who loves the Nordics? I don't think so. See I believe that we have a nation of understandard students writing our history books. It's truly scary and embarassing. See it was the KKK who espouced Nordic beliefs, not the Nazis.

At no point in that quote is race mentioned as a reason Hitler decided to invade Denmark. In fact, as you yourself stated in your own argument, Nazi Germany invaded Denmark because they were an ally of Britain, which had declared war on Germany after the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939. By your logic, however, no nation would ever go to war with a nation unless they hated them for their race. In this case, please explain the following: the American Revolution, the Spanish-American War, the War of 1812, World War I, the Crimean War, the Napoleonic Wars, the Franco-Prussian War, the War of the Spanish Succession, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War, the War in Afghanistan, the Korean War, and the majority of other wars.

Now, for my own arguments.

1) The Nazis viewed several races, including Africans, Jews, and Slavs as subhuman and inferior.

Now, Adam, I acknowledge the fact that you do not consider Jews to be a race. However, this is something that is obviously untrue. However, seeing as I doubt that will change your opinion, I have thought of two other races that the Nazis believed were subhuman and inferior. Here are some Hitler quotes about Slavs:

"The Slav peoples are not destined to live a cleanly life. They know it, and we would be wrong to persuade them of the contrary. It was we who, in 1918, created the Baltic countries and the Ukraine. But nowadays we have no interest in maintaining Baltic States, any more than in creating an independent Ukraine. We must likewise prevent them from returning to Christianity. That would be a grave fault, for it would be giving them a form of organisation."

"If left to himself, the Slav would never have emerged from the narrowest of family communities."

These quotes alone say a lot.

2) Germans are, obviously, a Germanic race, as are the Norse.

If you don't believe me, let's hear what Hitler has to say about it.

"In old times Europe was confined to the southern part of the Greek peninsula. Then Europe became confused with the borders of the Roman Empire. If Russia goes under in this war, Europe will stretch eastwards to the limits of Germanic colonisation."

"The Germanic race created the notion of the State. It incarnated this notion in reality, by compelling the individual to be a part of a whole. It's our duty continually to arouse the forces that slumber in our people's blood."

If you can't believe me about Nazis, at least believe Hitler about them.
Debate Round No. 2
Adam2

Pro

Christopher, I take back the things I said to you yesterday. I was just annoyed. I'm sorry for that. Thanks for showing me friendliness and courtesy, friend. Now, let's get to business.

Here are some refutals
This is not a picture of Jesse Owens and Luz Long. It appears to be a picture of Owens and several other athletes saluting something or somebody.
Yes, however, I was making a point. Had this been in Britain (southern Scotland and northern England), Denmark or Sweden, or the US, (1) it would have been segregated (in this picture a German, a black man, and a Japanese man were celebrating the win together, and the audience cheered with strength). In those three countries I mentioned, it was common to throw bananas at blacks.

You didn't provide a picture here, you just moved on with your argument.
My apologies. I meant to refer to the first.

Here's a more personal picture of the two to make it more convincing
That was an error on my part. Here are the pics I forgot to show.
http://www.aph.gov.au...
http://static.alessandrobenetton.com...
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com...;(a bit of brotherly love).

My opponent seems to be arguing that since there is in existence a picture of a Nazi and a black man, that all Nazis are not racist. Since he mentions the United States, I'd like to present him with this picture: https://www.google.com......;, which is clearly a picture of an African American baseball player, Hank Aaron, with two white baseball players. By their uniforms, it can be judged that they are on the same team, which likely means that they had some form of a friendship. Now, does this prove that racism was nonexistant in the United States? Of course not!

Absolutely. I'll also be glad to say that not all whites were lynching blacks or other races. But racial hatred was a big problem in all of the 50 states.


At no point in that quote is race mentioned as a reason Hitler decided to invade Denmark. In fact, as you yourself stated in your own argument, Nazi Germany invaded Denmark because they were an ally of Britain, which had declared war on Germany after the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939. By your logic, however, no nation would ever go to war with a nation unless they hated them for their race. In this case, please explain the following: the American Revolution, the Spanish-American War, the War of 1812, World War I, the Crimean War, the Napoleonic Wars, the Franco-Prussian War, the War of the Spanish Succession, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War, the War in Afghanistan, the Korean War, and the majority of other wars.

Yes, I did say that Hitler hated Nordics. I never race was the cause of wars. Wars do happen. I understand that. However, there are two motives for war. The first is an older, more despecible combination of reasons -- to steal and in some cases enslave (Scotland, Denmark and Sweden did this). With Hitler and Mussolini, as party of the grand fascist movements that occured in the 20th century, it was done out of revenge. I can honestly say that the second of the two is less despicable honestly. I can understand what trigged the Axis' anger. Now, as for race, I never said race was necessarily a factor, but I defintely believe revenge was. Remember, the revenge conquest of Denmark is part of a German-Danish conflict that goes back centuries. In the 17th century, Denmark colonized a part of Germany that belonged to them, thus starting a very brutal war between the two nations. This was the Schwelig War (Schwelig which was originally German, but today Denmark). There was the first. Then there was the second, which was Germany trying to claim back what was their's originally, in 1864. Then, in an attempt to cheat Germany and add insult to injury, Denmark wants to steal it back, and was awarded this in Versailles. It was Denmark's way of saying "I don't care, you krauts."



The Nazis viewed several races, including Africans, Jews, and Slavs as subhuman and inferior.

Now, Adam, I acknowledge the fact that you do not consider Jews to be a race.
To be fair you bring up a good point that I should have said earlier. The reason there's all this confusion about Jews and their race is because the Israeli people once were a major nation in the world in the times of antiquity. But here's where it gets tricky. Judiasm and Israel for most of its histories were not synomous terms. The Bible talks about Israel being the chosen ones, however, it was later on in the Old Testament. Before then, there was no Israel. Also Judaism was actually a heretical religion in the land. As the story of the Bible goes, Moses' commandments were being broken by the people in the town. They were twisting God's words (in many cases this is where the heresy of Judaism began). All the ridiculous rules in Orthodox Judaism that were never God's orders. Also, perhaps coincidently, God told the Israelis to keep their tribe pure (I know that sounds racist, but if you read the Bible, you'll understand what I mean). There were different races in all of the regions. Some could have been Nordics, some ancient Spaniards, etc. Many of the ones who created Judaism were the same ones who disobeyed God's commandments. What's the point I'm making Israel and Judiasm were not synomous with each other. The word "Jew" doesn't really appear until the New Testament (God forgive me if I'm wrong).

However, this is something that is obviously untrue. However, seeing as I doubt that will change your opinion, I have thought of two other races that the Nazis believed were subhuman and inferior. Here are some Hitler quotes about Slavs:


"The Slav peoples are not destined to live a cleanly life. They know it, and we would be wrong to persuade them of the contrary. It was we who, in 1918, created the Baltic countries and the Ukraine. But nowadays we have no interest in maintaining Baltic States, any more than in creating an independent Ukraine. We must likewise prevent them from returning to Christianity. That would be a grave fault, for it would be giving them a form of organisation. If left to himself, the Slav would never have emerged from the narrowest of family communities."
This one is a bit hard to refute as I would have to look into deep. I will state that I believe this is one of the many stupid statements in our history books today. I can't help but think that this is more a KKK belief (which I'll get into more later).

Germans are, obviously, a Germanic race, as are the Norse.
Actually no. Germans are not a Germanic people, at least not completely or even for the most part. They're mixed with many bloodlines. You have the Romans who settled there. The slavs from the west. The area encompassing Germany was once Germanic but those people have now settled in what is now southern Scotland, the Scandinavian countries (Norway is more Celtic though). The Germans might be closer to the Norse, however, there's good reason to believe that Norway is a Celtic country, moreso than Germanic. Many spellings in Norway seem to give the impression that it's more Celtic. Norway is also very similar to the Highlands of Scotland and Ireland.

If you don't believe me, let's hear what Hitler has to say about it.
"In old times Europe was confined to the southern part of the Greek peninsula. Then Europe became confused with the borders of the Roman Empire. If Russia goes under in this war, Europe will stretch eastwards to the limits of Germanic colonisation. The Germanic race created the notion of the State. It incarnated this notion in reality, by compelling the individual to be a part of a whole. It's our duty continually to arouse the forces that slumber in our people's blood."
If you can't believe me about Nazis, at least believe Hitler about them.
With all due respect, Chris, I find that statement complete BS. Whoever said that Hitler said this had to be stupid. This is not one of the things I've ever seen said in his speech films (and I've seen a lot of them, though not, and none ever have said this). I dare you to find me a video of Hitler's speech in which he some something about that. Cause I've never seen one where it's translated to say those things. Most of the videos I've seen praise Italy, and in some cases the Roman Empire. And, Hitler could not have been that dumb. Hitler was a smart man (much like Mussolini). He would have to know that Germany as well as Austria was a mixed country, ethnicity wise, part Slavic, part Roman, part Celtic.

Here are some things.
Like I said before, the KKK and Nazis are unfortunately so mixed up in our society that we don't really have facts any more. It was the KKK that believed in Germanic ideals not the Nazis. One thing that shows this for instance, is the fact that one ethnic group, the Swedes, dominated Klan politics in Massachusetts during the 19th to 20th centuries. They hated the fact that Germans and Irish were coming in big numbers, and did everything they could to stop them. Plus Nazism is naturally the antithesis of the Germanic Protestant KKK. Nazism is a Catholic ideology, in which many of the Catholics sided with. Anglicanism was the second biggest supporter of Nazism, with Henry Ford and Chamberlain, prime minister of England, being its supporters (Churchill was never really religious). Lutherans were heavily against Nazism from the get. Be a Lutheran who supported Nazi views and you could consider yourself banished from the community of believiers.
ChrisF

Con

ChrisF forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Adam2

Pro

Anyways, to close... unfortunately, ChrisF couldn't come up with a counter rebutal. It's a shame because it would have made a great debate. But yes Hitler was not a racist. Wish the best to ChrisF. May the best win.
ChrisF

Con

ChrisF forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Adam2 2 years ago
Adam2
It matters not. I'm getting love for it. lol I got a 1+.
Posted by 64bithuman 2 years ago
64bithuman
This whole topic is bizarre.
Posted by Gaznew01 2 years ago
Gaznew01
The Nazis and the KKK which you cited...
Posted by Adam2 2 years ago
Adam2
What was two separate entities?
Posted by Gaznew01 2 years ago
Gaznew01
Two separate entities, conjoined by the same Racial Beliefs. They were both Racist.
Posted by Adam2 2 years ago
Adam2
That's how Danes feel about Germans, and Germans don't like Danes either
Posted by Adam2 2 years ago
Adam2
See you're one of those Americans who believe that KKK and Nazis are the same
Posted by Adam2 2 years ago
Adam2
Gaznew01
Except the Nazis didn't believe in a Germanic race. That was a KKK belief.
Posted by Gaznew01 2 years ago
Gaznew01
Of course the Nazis were Racist.
Any group who was not of Germanic Ancestry was deemed an inferior RACE. That is racism at it's most vehement.
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