The Instigator
matt8800
Pro (for)
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The Contender
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Con (against)
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The New Testament (Bible) DOES NOT invalidate the violent Old Testament Laws

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/27/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 416 times Debate No: 84326
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
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matt8800

Pro

I believe that there is no good argument to show that anything in the New Testament says that the Old Testament laws do not need to be followed.

1. By definition, a true Christian believes everything in the Bible.
2. The New Testament does not invalidate the Old Testament
3. A Christian that believes the Bible must support killing of people that work on Sunday and homosexuals.
4. If a Christian disagrees, he is stating the Bible is not to be relied upon thereby denouncing the whole foundation of Christianity.
IntellectVsSpirit5000

Con

Matthew 5:17
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose."

He did accomplish their purpose.

John 19:30

When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is accomplished." And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.

Jesus and the woman taken in adultery " known as Pericope Adulterae (/pəG2;r=8;kəpiH0; əG2;dA2;ltəriH0;/)[1] or Pericope de Adultera " is a famous passage (pericope) from verses 7:53-8:11 of the Gospel of John. The passage describes a confrontation between Jesus and the scribes and Pharisees over whether a woman, caught in an act of adultery, ought to be stoned as per the Law of Moses. Jesus shames the crowd into dispersing, and averts the execution.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Jesus was confronted with the Law of Moses in this story. He rejected it and had mercy on the woman instead.
Debate Round No. 1
matt8800

Pro

I appreciate IntellectVsSpirit5000 taking this debate. I admit this story of the adulterer is one that I forgot.

Here are a couple issues with that passage:

1.This story does not speak directly to the topic of the current validity Old Testament laws. Jesus simply sent the woman away and told her to sin no more. At most, this can only be an insinuation of a message that is open to interpretation and assumption.
2.The Bible is considered to be the moral authority by Christians; a code by which they live their lives. Is there any example of any governing authority changing laws that have to do with who is executed and who is not without clear communication of exactly what the new laws are to the citizens under that authority? Even a poor leader would see the importance of leaving no ambiguity about such serious laws.
3.Even on the link that was provided, it is presented that that text was added to the original books of the Bible. During the 16th century, both Catholic and Protestant scholars sought to recover the most correct Greek text of the New Testament, rather than relying on the Vulgate Latin translation. It was found that most of the early manuscripts lacked this passage and the ones that did, contained critical signs such as a lemniscus or asterisk. It is also noted by scholars that this passage is stylistically out of sync with the rest fo the text attributed to the original author, meaning it was later added by unknown authors. The United Bible Societies is critical of the origin of the text and rates its reconstruction of the wording of the periscope as "virtually certain" to reflect the original text of the ADDITION.
4.At best, it is just a story of Jesus openly defying the laws of Moses without providing any explanation or clarification. At worst, it is a passage that never originally existed and was added later by an unknown author.

This passage is nothing more than insinuation that requires assumption. On top of that, many biblical scholars do not believe it is authentic. If we are going to change such impactful laws regarding when to put people to death, is that the best clarification god can provide? After all, the bible minces no words about the laws of the old testament and is very clear. There is no insinuations or required assumptions.

Because the origin and the message of this passage is so much in question, maybe we can look to some quotes with clear meaning attributed to Jesus for direction:

"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)
IntellectVsSpirit5000

Con

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The Old Testament is the first covenant. The New Testament is a new covenant. In some translations it says old covenant and new covenant instead of old testament and new testament.

Mark 7:18 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?
Mark 7:19 (NIV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

What he declares here is completely inconsistant with the laws given to Moses in the Old Testament.

Notice that in the Old Testament animals were sacrificed by command of God for blood attonement. This was a part of Moses' Law. But yet today, in real life, Christians do not sacrifice animals. Why? Because Jesus fulfilled the Laws of Moses.

Mark 7:2
They noticed that some of his disciples failed to follow the Jewish ritual of hand washing before eating.

Mark 7:5
So the Pharisees and teachers of religious law asked him, "Why don't your disciples follow our age-old tradition? They eat without first performing the hand-washing ceremony."

Mark 7:15
It's not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart."

Romans 14:1-23
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

All the Scriptures bear witness to Christ. Moses wrote about Christ.

John 5:39, 46: You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me. . . . If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

All the Scriptures are about Jesus Christ, even where there is no explicit prediction. That is, there is a fullness of implication in all Scriptures that points to Christ and is satisfied only when he has come and done his work. "The meaning of all the Scriptures is unlocked by the death and resurrection of Jesus." (Graeme Goldsworthy, Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture, p. 54)

Luke 24:27:
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Jesus came to fulfill all that was written in the Law and the Prophets. All of it was pointing to him even where it is not explicitly prophetic. He accomplishes what the Law required.

Matthew 5:17-18:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

All the promises of God in the Old Testament are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. That is, when you have Christ, sooner or later you will have both Christ himself and all else that God promised through Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20: For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.

The law was kept perfectly by Christ. And all its penalties against God"s sinful people were poured out on Christ. Therefore, the law is now manifestly not the path to righteousness, Christ is. The ultimate goal of the law is that we would look to Christ, not law-keeping, for our righteousness.

Romans 10:4:
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The blood sacrifices ceased because Christ fulfilled all that they were pointing toward. He was the final, unrepeatable sacrifice for sins. Hebrews 9:12: "He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption."
The priesthood that stood between worshipper and God has ceased. Hebrews 7:23-24: "The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever."
The physical temple has ceased to be the geographic center of worship. Now Christ himself is the center of worship. He is the "place," the "tent," and the "temple" where we meet God.
Debate Round No. 2
matt8800

Pro

Mark 7:18 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?
Mark 7:19 (NIV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

What he declares here is completely inconsistent with the laws given to Moses in the Old Testament.

This is true – it is completely inconsistent. Jesus didn’t say there was a new law to replace the old law; he simply showed he wasn’t going to follow the old law and was OK with others not following it either. Jesus did not make any statement regarding the old law so his meaning and motives can only be assumed.

According to my opponent, the law of the Old Testament is invalidated because of Jesus’ death yet he had not died yet at the time of the above statements. If his death was the invalidation, wouldn’t the conclusion be that he was encouraging people to break the old testament law prior to invalidation? If this doesn’t matter, why not? If his birth was invalidation, why did he have to die?

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Taking the literal meaning of this passage into account, Earth has not passed away. Any explanation as to why this means something than what it says is motivated by bias.

Biases is the enemy of truth. Christians are admonished to speak up for what’s right but what do Christians say about blatant tolerance for slavery in the New Testament? Only that was just the way things worked. If this “oversight” was not in the New Testament but was in the Quran, it is a fact that Christians would use that to condemn Islam. Biases are the fuel that makes the truth fluid to whatever you want the truth to be.

I’m sure there are some creative interpretations that are contrary to a literal interpretation. If God wrote the Bible, he didn’t do a very good job communicating the message clearly. You would think that an omniscient God who knew there would be so much debate about his word would take the time to be more clear so no debate or interpretation was necessary.

I have provided passages that prove my claim. My opponent has provided passages that, in and of themselves, would prove his claim. Because my opponent relies on the infallibility of the Bible, he needs all the scriptures to be consistent to make a credible case. My claim does not need all the scriptures to be consistent for me to win this debate because I don’t contend the Bible is consistent. I believe I won this debate because I have presented text from the New Testament that clearly states “till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law”.

IntellectVsSpirit5000

Con

Here is Pro's first statement of this debate.

"I believe that there is no good argument to show that anything in the New Testament says that the Old Testament laws do not need to be followed."

According to this first decleration, Pro is stating that the New Testament gives no indication that the Old Testament laws need not be followed.

Pro admitted that Jesus, the one responsible for the New Testament and executive of Christian law, stood against the Old Testament when Pro said, and I quote,
" This is true " it is completely inconsistent. Jesus didn"t say there was a new law to replace the old law; he simply showed he wasn"t going to follow the old law and was OK with others not following it either."

Pro spoke of "biases" and Islam, but none of these things are pertaining to the debate topic. In this particular debate, it is not my burden to prove whether Christianity is biased or whether Christians would accuse Islam of anything if the shoe were on the other foot. My burden of proof is simply to prove that the New Testament indicates that Christians are not under the Old Testament Laws.

Pro is the Prosecutor of the Old Testament vs. The New Testament. His burden is to convict and prove the New Testament, beyond a reasonable doubt, does not allow Christians authority to let go of the Old Testament laws and that Christians are under the OT law.

I am the defense attorney in this case. It is my job to show that there is a reasonable doubt as to whether the New Testament does not nullify the Old Testament laws. Seeing Pro says that Jesus himself was inconsistant and challenging of Old Testament rules and laws, I feel confident that there is more than a reasonable doubt to Pro's claim.

I thank Pro for this opportunity and wish Pro good luck during the voting period.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by IntellectVsSpirit5000 1 year ago
IntellectVsSpirit5000
The instigator of this debate is welcome to try and make any of those points.
Posted by justiceandtruth 1 year ago
justiceandtruth
Jesus didn't disavow the law of Moses in the situation regarding the woman caught in the act of adultery, rather he avowed his message of grace. Jesus told the men, "He who is without sin cast the first stone." Let it be noted that he did not say, "this woman has done no wrong and the law of Moses is now void." He knew what the law was, but his purpose was to resurrect the lives of his people through compassion and understanding.
Posted by be_diligent 1 year ago
be_diligent
There are 613 commandments contained in the OT. A person was not required to keep them all. Some of those laws are specifically for children, some for priests, some for women only, and some for men only. Some of the laws were to be applied only in judgement situations, and some to be applied for certain days of the year.

God's will has always been about mercy and goodness.

The old testament says this:

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

The new testament says this:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus not only reiterated the verse from Hosea, He called for people to go and learn what it means.

An OT example:

Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exodus 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Jesus said this:

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

There is no contradiction at all between those two passages. The passage from Exodus 21 ties directly into reaping what we sow.

The passage in Matthew 5 is the character that God expects from those who believe in Him. We are to be living examples of His goodness in our own lives.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Posted by missmedic 1 year ago
missmedic
There are over a thousand new testament commandments. Are all of them to be followed or did Jesus say only follow the ones you like?
https://www.cai.org...
check out Matthew 15:1-9
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
The point of the Old Testament wasn't as a law book for Christians. Leviticus was a governmental system set up by Moses for Ancient Israel. Isaiah says that Jesus was to bring the "new government on his shoulders" meaning that Jesus made the new law for all Christians, and the top two rules are love God and love others.

I can understand why people who haven't read the Bible get that mixed up, but if you read the context around Old Testament law, it isn't even really stated to be a perfect system. The system wasn't meant to last. It was meant to be temporary. Half of the laws are hygiene laws that don't even matter today, like the laws about mildew, meat, blood, tattoos, hair cutting, and disease. It was the most hygienically sound society in ancient times, which I think just adds to the evidence for Christianity, because germ theory didn't exist.

But the word "Testament" is a translation from the word "Covenant," which is historically a binding contract between two peoples. So the Old Testament is what doesn't apply to us as a binding term: however, it teaches us about God, about the history of the world (archeologists still use the Bible as a historical book), about where our religion comes from, about historical figures to model ourselves after, and about historical figures to definitely avoid the habits of. The New Testament is what's binding to us, and some old laws were restated in the New Testament. But the Old Testament was fulfilled like Con said, because Jesus was the intended completion of the old law to lead in the new law, symbolized by the tearing of the curtain in the temple.

Pretty easy stuff once you've gotten the summary, but it's understandable why you'd get that confused.
Posted by Tilar 1 year ago
Tilar
Pro has no idea what he is talking about.

Read Romans... All I got to say.
Posted by missmedic 1 year ago
missmedic
Does it say any where in the bible that you can follow the commandments you like and neglect the rest?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17"18)
""Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)
""For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." " Matthew 5:18-19
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)
Keep in mind, this is Jesus Christ saying this"in the Bible that all Christians own and cherish. Don"t take my word for it; look it up"it"s all there.
Posted by retroz 1 year ago
retroz
How ignorant... "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law [of the old testament] so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."... Straight from the New Testament
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