The Instigator
Talib.ul-Ilm
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
Fruitytree
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

The Niqab Is Obligatory

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after 4 votes the winner is...
Fruitytree
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/7/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,475 times Debate No: 33385
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (87)
Votes (4)

 

Talib.ul-Ilm

Pro

Rules:
  • No slander.
  • No hate speech.
  • No insult to character.


I'm going to argue that the niqab, veiling the face, is indeed obligatory for Muslim women. My opponent must show me why it isn't.

Fruitytree

Con

Firstly I thank Talib for challenging me on this topic,which has long been a subject of differing between islamic scholars.



Definition:



Niqab is a piece of cloth women use to cover their faces
from stranger men, for modesty reasons.


http://en.wikipedia.org...


-My oponent will have to prove that the Niqab is compulsory in islam for any muslim woman. and I will have to prove that It is not , using ONLY Quran verses, authantic Hadeeth, their most accurate interpretations, logical arguments that follow the texts interpretations and the Ejmaee (or the consensus of islamic scholars).
Debate Round No. 1
Talib.ul-Ilm

Pro

1. Muhamamd said:
  1. All of the woman is awrah.

a. Narrated Anas:

"...and if one of the women of Paradise looked at the earth, she would fill the whole space between them (the earth and the heaven) with light, and would fill whatever is in between them, with perfume, and the veil of her face is better than the whole world and whatever is in it." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 8, Book 76, Hadith 572)



2. The Sahabah said:

a. Abu Ubaidah Salmani said: "Jilbaab should fully cover the women's body, so that nothing appears but one eye with which she can see." (Tasfir al-Qurtubi) He also said that: "The women used to don their cloaks (Jilbaabs) over their heads in such a manner that only the eyes were revealed in order to see the road." (Hijab, pg. 9)

b. Ibn Abbas himself said that the meaning of the verse to cover is the whole face but one eye.


3. Aisha and other women said:

a. Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba:

`Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces." (Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 282)

b.
Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger used to offer the Fajr prayer and some believing women covered with their veiling sheets used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes unrecognized. (Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 368)

c. Narrated Umm Salamah:

When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments. (Abu Dawud, Book 33, Hadith 4090)

d.
Narrated Aisha:

May Allah have mercy on the early immigrant women. When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. (Abu Dawud, Book 33, Hadith 4091)

e. Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

Riders would pass us when we accompanied the Messenger of Allah while we were in the sacred state (wearing ihram). When they came by us, one of us would let down her outer garment from her head over her face, and when they had passed on, we would uncover our faces. (Abu Dawud, Book 10, Hadith 1829)

f.
Narrated Um `Atiya:

We were ordered to bring out our menstruating women and veiled women in the religious gatherings and invocation of Muslims on the two `Id festivals. These menstruating women were to keep away from their Musalla. A woman asked, "O Allah's Messenger ' What about one who does not have a veil?" He said, "Let her share the veil of her companion." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 347)

g. Aisha stated that in verse thirty and thirty-one, "What has been allowed to be shown is the hands, bangles and rings, but not the face." (Quoted by Shaikh Abdul A'la Maududi in the book Purdah P# 195 and in his Tafseer of Quran under the tafseer of Surah An Nur)

4. The early Muslims, Jurists and Tasfir:

a. "Women must not display any part of their beauty and charms to strangers except what cannot possibly be concealed." (Ibn Kathir)

b. Imam Muhammad bin Sirin "When I asked Ubaida bin Sufyan bin al-Harith the meaning of this verse about "Alaihinna" and how the jilbaab was to be worn, he demonstrated it to me by pulling a sheet of cloth over his head to cover his entire body, leaving the left eye uncovered. This was also the explanation of the word 'Alaihinna in this verse"(Commentary by Ibn Jarir and Ahkam-ul-Quran, Vol # 3, p.457 also in "hijaab wa Sufor" quoted by Shaikh AbdulAziz Bin Bazz under the chapter of his fatwaa on hijab on page #54)

c. Three of the founders of today's mainstream Madhabs believed the niqab to be obligatory.

5. The weakness of the hadeeth saying women can show their face and hands:

a. There is no link between Aisha and Khalid bin Dareek. And in every chain of narrators Khalid bin Dareek is mentioned.

b. In the narration Sa'eed bin Basheer appears, who is known by most of the Muhaditheen as being a weak narrator. This has been mentioned by Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal, An-Nasai, Ibn Madeeni and Ibn Ma'een. This is also why Imaam Bukhari and Muslim, the two most trusted sources of ahadeeth, did not accept this hadith to be in their books.

c. Abu Dawud himself quoted the hadeeth as being Musal, meaning that it is a broken chain that does not lead up to the Sahabah.

d. One last thing is that after the ayah for hijab was revealed, the women of the Sahabah wore a complete veil and covered their faces and hands.




Conclusion


When Muhammad says that all of the woman is awrah, and Aisha, the women of Ansar, the women of the Sahabah, the Companions of Muhammad, three founders of the four mainstream schools of thought (Madhabs) all say that covering the face is obligatory, how can you deny this clear fact?
Fruitytree

Con

Peace be on you, I will post only my arguments like you did and we leave rebuttals for next rounds.


Arguments against "the niqab is obligatory"


1- Allah says in chapter Ennisaa Verse 59:

"O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (59)"


Here comes all the quranic verses that speak about women's garment :

Quran /Chapter 24 Ennour: "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed(30)"


Quran/chapter 33 : "And those who malign believing men and believing women undeservedly, they bear the guilt of slander and manifest sin. (58) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. (59) If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbours in it but a little while. (60) "


Quran doesn't ask to cover the face explicitly.
.
And there is no Hadeeth where the prophet peace be upon him commands women to cover their faces, and my opponent is invited to find one.


2- some free Muslim women of the time of the prophet peace be upon him used to talk to stranger men including to the Prophet PBUH and never were asked to cover their faces although some were beautiful!


Here are examples from authentic sunna:

2-1- Narrated Sahl bin Sa`d:
3A woman came to Allah's Messenger (PBUH) and said, "O Allah's Messenger! I have come to you to present myself to you (for marriage)." Allah's Messenger () glanced at her. He looked at her carefully and fixed his glance on her and then lowered his head. When the lady saw that he did not say anything, she sat down. A man from his companions got up and said, "O Allah's Messenger ()! If you are not in need of her, then marry her to me." The Prophet () said, "Have you got anything to offer." The man said, 'No, by Allah, O Allah's Messenger ()!" The Prophet () said (to him), "Go to your family and try to find something." So the man went and returned, saying, "No, by Allah, O Allah's Messenger ()! I have not found anything." The Prophet said, "Go again and look for something, even if it were an iron ring." He went and returned, saying, "No, by Allah, O Allah's Messenger ()! I could not find even an iron ring, but this is my Izar (waist sheet).' He had no Rida (upper garment). He added, "I give half of it to her." Allah's Messenger () said "What will she do with your Izar? If you wear it, she will have nothing over herself thereof (will be naked); and if she wears it, then you will have nothing over yourself thereof ' So the man sat for a long period and then got up (to leave). When Allah's Messenger () saw him leaving, he ordered that he e called back. When he came, the Prophet () asked (him), "How much of the Qur'an do you know (by heart)?" The man replied, I know such Sura and such Sura and such Sura," naming the suras. The Prophet () said, "Can you recite it by heart?" He said, 'Yes." The Prophet () said, "Go I let you marry her for what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr).Sahih al-Bukhari 5126
The prophet peace be upon him glanced at her face, it's unprobable that he glanced at her burqa! and he was not the only stranger man there, there was also Sahl, the narrator and the companion who was interested to marry her at minimum.

2-2-
"Ibn 'Abbass said:

'A beautiful woman, from among the most beautiful of women, used to pray behind the Prophet (SAAW). Some of the people used to go to pray in the front row to ensure they would not be able to see her. Others would pray in the last row of the men, and they would look from underneath their armpits to see her."

Because of this act, in regard to her, Allah revealed: "Verily, We know the eager among you to be in the front and verily We know the eager to be behind." (15:24).

Narrated by Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, Attayalisy, Baihaqi, Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Nasai and others. It was judged authentic by Sheikh Al-Albaanee in his book, Silsilat Al-Ahaadeeth As-Saheehah #2472, where he quoted many scholars who judged it to be authentic.

This woman was praying in the mosque behind the prophet peace be upon him, so obviously wearing the full Hijab, yet judged to be beautiful! Guess why . her face of course. yet she was not ordered to cover her face, nor was it a reason to separate the mosques in partitions to separate men from women! but the man or men who used to try to see her during the prayer were blamed in the famous verse.


2-3 It was narrated that Jabir said:

" I attended the prayer with the Messenger of Allah (SAW) on the day of 'Eid. He started with the prayer before the Khutbah, with no Adhan and no Iqamah. When he finished the prayer, he stood leaning on Bilal, and he praised and glorified Allah (SWT) and exhorted the people, reminding them and urging them to obey Allah (SWT). Then he moved away and went to the women, and Bilal was with him. He commanded them to fear Allah (SWT) and exhorted them and reminded them. He praised and glorified Allah, then he urged them to obey Allah, then he said: 'Give charity, for most of you are the fuel of Hell.' A lowly woman with dark cheeks said: 'Why, O Messenger of Allah?' He said: 'You complain a great deal and are ungrateful to your husbands.' They started taking off their necklaces, earrings and rings, throwing them into Bilal's garment, giving them in charity." (Sahih)

The narrator is a man who seems not to know who the woman is, but the woman is known cause this hadeeth was narrated by herself (Asmaa bint Zaid) too, so none can say she was a slave girl or an old woman, yet the prophet did not ask her to cover her face, and he wouldn't have missed it if it was compulsory.


3- finally the interpretation of the second verse above was a subject of differing already from the time of the companions, and this shows that there were women not covering their face already then.

The two bellow links are Arabic interpretations of the verse that point out the differing, and amongst the companions who explained the verse 59 of Chapter 33, that it means the free Muslim women needed to be differentiated in their way to dress from the slave women and women of the people of the scripture ( the Christians and Jews) and had to put another cloth above their shawls so that is covers their whole body, and firmly attach it on their forehead, was Abdullah Ibn Abbas the great companion of the messenger peace be upon him. and both parties agree that the goal of the verse was to distinguish between the free Muslim women and the rest of the women, so they do not get mistaken.

http://quran.al-islam.com...

http://quran.al-islam.com...


Conclusion:

Although a lot of women from the companions of the prophet did cover their face, still many other did not and this alone shows the Burqa is liked , but not compulsory in Islam.

Now you can start with rebuttals.

References :


http://quranexplorer.com...

http://sunnah.com...

PS: in all the above, Burqa reffers to Niqab.



Debate Round No. 2
Talib.ul-Ilm

Pro

The Word 'Jilbab'

I find it interesting that you bring up the verses that tell the believing women to cover themselves. But what the problem is, is that you actually misinterpret the verses, you mistranslate them, let me show you why.

What did the first Muslims believe the word to mean?

"O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful." (Qur'an 33:59)

Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud said the the jilbab is what covers the entire body, including the head, face and hands. (Quoted in Ibn Taymiyyah's book of fatwas, Pg. 110, Vol. 2, and in Shaykh Uthaymeen's book, "Hijab," Pg. 15)

Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba:

Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces." (Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 282)

Narrated Umm Salamah:

When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments. (Abu Dawud, Book 33, Hadith 4090)

Narrated Aisha:

May Allah have mercy on the early immigrant women. When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. (Abu Dawud, Book 33, Hadith 4091)

Here you see the women testifying the meaning of the verse, also showing that the face too must be covered.

Narrated Anas:

"...and if one of the women of Paradise looked at the earth, she would fill the whole space between them (the earth and the heaven) with light, and would fill whatever is in between them, with perfume, and the veil of her face is better than the whole world and whatever is in it." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 8, Book 76, Hadith 572)

Even in heaven, women will be wearing veils on their faces.

Narrated `Aisha:

Allah's Messenger used to offer the Fajr prayer and some believing women covered with their veiling sheets used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes unrecognized. (Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 368)

And here we have the example of Muslim women who went to pray with Muhammad for Fajr, they too veiled themselves and returned home unrecognized. And in case you want to play with words as some have, "some believing women" doesn't mean that only some of them did, it only means that the women who went to pray with him wore veils.

"And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed." (Qur'an 30:31)

Aisha states that in verse 30 and 31 of Surah An Nur "What has been allowed to be shown is the hands, bangles and rings but the face must be covered." (Quoted by Shaikh Abdul A'la Maududi in the book Purdah P# 195 and in his Tafseer of Quran under the tafseer of Surah An Nur)

Abu Ubaidah Salmani, a well known Sahabi is quoted as saying "Jilbaab should fully cover the women's body, so that nothing appears but one eye with which she can see." (Tafseer Al-Qurtubi) And In the time of Muhammad "The women used to don their cloaks (Jilbaabs) over their heads in such a manner that only the eyes were revealed in order to see the road." (The Book "Hijaab" page # 9)

Imam Muhammad bin Sirin, one of the most knowledgeable of the Tabi'een said "When I asked Ubaida bin Sufyan bin al-Harith how the jilbabb was to be worn, he demonstrated it to me by pulling a sheet of cloth over his head to cover his entire body, leaving the left eye uncovered. This was also the explanation of the word 'Alaihinna in this verse" (Commentary by Ibn Jarir and Ahkam-ul-Quran, Vol.3, p.457 also in "hijaab wa Safur" quoted by Shaikh AbdulAziz Bin Bazz under the chapter of his fatwaa on hijab on page #54)

Ibn Jarir quotes Ibn Abbas, "Allah has enjoined upon all Muslim Women that when they go out of their homes under necessity, they should cover their faces by drawing a part of their outer garments over their heads." (Tafseer Ibn Jarir, Vol. 22, pg.29)

Imam al-Ghazaali, a famous Muslim philosopher, said "Women emerged (during the time of Muhammad) with niqabs on their faces." (Fiqh Ihyaal Uloom).



"3-finally the interpretation of the second verse above was a subject of differing already from the time of the companions, and this shows that there were women not covering their face already then."


As to this, I can't read Arabic. But I can also tell you that you are picking and choosing the whole reason as to why. Another reason is because of Umar, when he saw one of the wives of Muhammad as she went out to go pee, and he said, "I recognize you, O' (insert name)". Now why would it not have to do with the face at all if it were just about differentiating as you say? It has to do with the face as well. Recognizing the women.

Narrated 'Aisha: The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes) (Sahih al-Bukhari, 1:4:148)

Not to mention that the people of the book still exist today, and you still need to differentiate. As well as the fact that it was Ibn Abbas' that said to cover "the whole face but one eye." So using him doesn't help your case at all one bit.




Conclusion

As you can see, both verses for the hijab/jilbab are translated by the first Muslims to mean covering the face. And I didn't even use anywhere near all of the evidence to show such. There is even Ibn Kathir who says about one of the verses that is along the lines of... "This means to cover all that is possible to cover." Which means the face.

So you have examples of women showing their faces? I say "so what?". What we do know is that the one, just one, only one hadeeth for evidence, clear evidence, saying the hands and face can be shown, is weak. It is a da'if hadeeth. In order to take that hadeeth you would need to take the many, many other hadeeth that are equally as weak.

Yet on the contrary, we have many, many hadeeth of the women and the Companions themselves translating the verses to mean that the face must be covered. This is not conjecture, unlike what your scholars do just because women showed their faces, this is clear explanations of the verses from the first Muslims, all of whom are well respected.
Fruitytree

Con

Time for Rebuttals:


I will be organizing my rebuttals in points :

1- is the woman truly all Awrah including her face ?

The "Hadeeth" mentioned by my opponent is not even a hadeeth but some scholar opinion and he acknowledged it honestly in the comment section.


By the consensus of the Muslim Ummah the male and female Muslim Have to hide their Awrah in the prayer, and By the Consensus of the Muslim scholars again , the Awrah of the female is All her body except for her face and hands. if the face of the woman was Awrah the prayer wouldn't be valid without niqab , and no scholar of Islam can say this !

Aishah narrated that: Allah's Messenger said: "The Salat of a women who has reached the age of menstruation is not accepted without a Khimar" (Sahih)

And Shawl was unanimously interpreted as shawl or hair cover not face cover !


Conclusion 1 : women face is not Awrah in Islam


2- Does the fact that Aisha and a lot of other women understood the Al-Ahzab as covering the body including the face necessitate it being Compulsory to cover the face?


No. if the majority of the companions do something or believe something it doesn't make it compulsory , but makes it Allowed at minimum and liked at maximum. for something to be compulsory they need to be unanimous, and for Niqab they were not as I have shown by hadeeths and Quran Arabic tafseer that pointed out the companions differing.


3-My opponent accuse me to misinterpret the 59th verse of chapter Al-Ahzab,


Here is the part of the verse that interests us, in Arabic:


{ يَا أَيّهَا النَّبِيّ قُلْ لِأَزْوَاجِك وَبَنَاتك وَنِسَاء الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلَابِيبهنَّ }

And the problematic word is يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ : Yod-neena aleyhinna, that is literally :They bring close on themselves . Ask any Arabic speaker about this sentence. but unfortunately the translators don't translate the quran words , but translate one of the interpreters opinion which is obviously a biased translation, and the only way to make sure the translation is accurate is to bring the Arabic verse and take the old Arabic dictionaries like "lissan al Arab", and praise be to Allah nothing is lost from the quran and we don't depend on translators opinions.


4- My opponent suggest that the women who covered their face actually covered it with the Djilbab itself! which would eventually match the command in the Al ahzab verse, but unfortunately for him the women who covered their face took a new piece of cloth independent from the djilbab and fixed it on their Had so that they can bring it down or take it back up.


Here is a drawing to illustrate the idea that the verse command does not necessitate to cover the face.

click="document.location='/Fruitytree/photos/album/2463/17203/'" src="../../../photos/albums/1/3/2463/74776-2463-r93wz-a.jpg" alt="" />



so if a woman wanted to cover her face she would have had to add a new piece of cloth for that purpose, and that exactly what the wives of Al Ansar did as reported aisha: "When (the Verse): "that they bring their Djilbab close on them" was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces." but the verse speaks about Djilbab that already exists , so obviously the wives of ansar did something additional to what they ware asked. not saying this was bad, but not compulsory.


4- Finally about Islamic scholars opinions,


The three great scholars: Malik, Abu Hanifah, Eshafii, agree that it is not forbidden for the woman to discover her face in the presens of stranger men.


And Ahmad ibn hanbal did not clearly speak about the face but was speaking about the feet including the nail, but people misinterpreted his statement and generalised and his own student did differ!


Here his statement in Arabic:

( نقل أبو طالب : ظفر المرأة عورة , فإذا خرجت فلا يبين منها شيء و لا خفها , فإن الخف يصف القدم , وأحب إلى أن تجعل لكمها زرا عند يدها لا يبين منها شيء )

Which is literally :
The nail of the woman is awrah, so if she goes out nothing should be displayed, not even her Khuff (sandals) as the sandals describe the feet,, and I like that she takes buttons for her sleeves to her hands so nothing is visible from her.



So the position of Ibn hanbal was this statement that doesn't speak about the face at all, doesn't even ask to hide the hands, but some people interpreted it according to their own logic.


http://majles.alukah.net...

Now dear readers , with all the above I think you will be able to make your own opinion.


We have one more round for eventually more rebuttals or arguments if my opponent has more to say.
Debate Round No. 3
Talib.ul-Ilm

Pro

My opponent says that the founders of the four Madhabs didn't find that it was obligatory to cover the face. This is a very big misunderstanding. And very, very wrong.

Even If It's Not Obligatory, It's Obligatory

"The third degree of Islamic legal Hijab about which jurists differ

The third degree of Hijab is that the whole body of the woman is hidden from the head to the feet, but the face and palms remain open. The question whether this degree of Hijab (where face and palms are exposed) is permissible has been a matter of difference of opinion between Muslim jurists which has emerged from different interpretations of the words (except that which is open) occurring in Surah An-Nur (24:31). Some commentators have interpreted these words to mean the face and palms, and therefore they have exempted them from the Hijab, and have held that it is permissible to leave them open. (as reported from Sayyidna Ibn 'Abbas). But there are others among them who take the expression to mean burqa', jilbab etc. These commentators hold it impermissible to expose face and palms. (as reported from Sayyidna Ibn Mas'ud). But, even according to those who have called it permissible, the permissibility is subject to the condition that there should be no apprehension of fitnah (situation resulting in some evil consequence). Since the face of a woman is at the center of her beauty and embellishment, therefore, the absence of any apprehension of fitnah is a rare likelihood. Ultimately, for this reason, under normal conditions, opening the face etc. is not permissible even according to the first group of commentators..."

So in all reality, even if it is not obligatory in the absolute sense, it is still obligatory in general for the majority of Muslim women if there is a chance of the apprehension of fitnah, the cause of fitnah.

"...Three Imams - Malik, Shafi'i, and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal - out of the four took to the strict position and held it absolutely impermissible to expose the face and palms, whether or not there is an apprehension of fitnah. As for Imam Abu Hanifah, he has, though, taken a different view, yet he has subjected it to the condition that there is no apprehension of fitnah, and since this condition remains customarily missing, therefore, Hanafi jurists too have not permitted the opening of the face and palms before non-Mahrams..."

All four of the founders of the mainstream Madhabs of today believed the veiling of the face to be obligatory, with only the Hanafi school believing it to be permissible if there is no possibility of fitnah.

"...The citations regarding the views of the four Imams have been given in detail with reference to authentic books of these schools in this humble writer's treatise entitled Tafsil ul-Khitab, published as part of the major work on Akham ul-Qur'an. Since the original ruling of the Hanafi jurists opts for the exemption of the face and palms from Hijab, therefore, a few citations of the Hanafi jurists are being given here in which it is mentioned that, due to the apprehension of fitnah, exposing face and palms is forbidden:
"Let it be understood that there is no incumbency between the non-cover-worthiness of a certain part of the body and the permissibility of looking at it, because the permissibility of looking at it depends on there being no apprehension of sexual desire - although, that part of the body is not included under 'awrah (that which is coverable). For this reason, casting a look at the face of a female stranger (non-Mahram woman) or at the face of a beardless boy is forbidden when there is no doubt about the emergence of any sexual desire, although, the face is not included under 'awrah (that which has to be hidden)." (Fath ul-Qadir, page. 181, volume 1)

From this observation of Fath ul-Qadir, we also come to know the exact meaning of 'apprehension of sexual desire' i.e. for all practical purposes, though there may not exist any desire, but one may have a reasonable apprehension that such a desire will develop by looking at the face, it will be included in the fitnah. When such a doubt does exist, then, it is forbidden to look not only at the face of female strangers, rather, even at the face of beardless boys. In addition to that, another explanation of the 'apprehension of sexual desire' appears in Jami' ar-Rumuz where it is said: 'It means that one's inner self is inclined to be close to her.' It is obvious that the absence of such a degree of inclination was rare even during the time of the early forbears of Islam (salaf). That the Holy Prophet, when he saw Sayyidna Fadl looking at a woman, had turned his face to the other side with his own blessed hands is mentioned in Hadith and is a clear proof of it. So, in this age of infested with all sorts of corruption, who can claim to be immune to this apprehension?" (Ma'ariful Qur'an, Vol. 7)

No one can, Mufti Muhammad Shafi.


Then my opponent goes on to say that she didn't mistranslate the verse, but I already showed her that she did indeed mistranslate it.

"When I asked Ubaida bin Sufyan bin al-Harith the meaning of this verse and how the jilbaab was to worn, he demonstrated it to me by pulling a sheet of cloth over his head to cover his entire body, leaving the left eye uncovered. This was also the explanation of the word 'Alaihinna' in this verse." (Commentary by Ibn Jarir and Ahkam ul-Quran, Vol. 3, pg.457)

Every explanation of both verses leads to the veiling of the face. If they are not outright explained this way by a Companion.

Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women -- especially his wives and daughters, because of their position of honor -- to draw their Jilbabs over their bodies, so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the women of the Jahiliyyah and from slave women. The Jilbab is a Rida', worn over the Khimar. This was the view of Ibn Mas`ud, `Ubaydah, Qatadah, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, `Ata' Al-Khurasani and others. It is like the Izar used today. Al-Jawhari said: "The Jilbab is the outer wrapper. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing. Muhammad bin Sirin said, "I asked `Ubaydah As-Salmani about the Ayah (to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) He covered his face and head, with just his left eye showing.' (Tasfir Ibn Kathir, Qur'an 33:59)

And here we find the same thing. The same interpretation. It is worn 'over the khimar.' This was the view of many, many Companions as you can see. And both Ibn Abbas and Ubaydah As-Salmani explained that the face was to be veiled.

  1. Aisha says to veil the face.
  2. The reason as to why the verse to veil came about was when Umar said he recognized Sauda, her face.
  3. Upon hearing the verses, both the women of Ansar and the wives of the Companions veiled.
  4. The Companions including Ibn Mas'ud and Ibn Abbas say to veil the face, and make the symbolic gesture of even covering one eye. And the words used in both of the hijab verses are translated by the Companions to mean veiling the face.
  5. Three out of four of the founders of the Madhabs ruled that the veiling of the face was obligatory, with the Hanafi Mahadab only allowing it if there is no chance of the apprehension of fitnah, thereby limiting the permissibility to very close friends and family who are not Mahrams, the elderly women, and the unnattractive women.
  6. Every classical Tasfir translates the words and verses about hijab to mean veiling the faces.
  7. There are ahadeeth that speak of women showing their face, but there are also ahadeeth that speak of women veiling their face.
Fruitytree

Con

1- Pro says even if it is not obligatory it still is obligatory ! Does anyone else see a contradiction here ?! he is able to assume it isn't obligatory in Islam , to prove it is obligatory with some men logic. unfortunately Islam is a revelation and does not accept people's opinions.

2-"All four of the founders of the mainstream Madhabs of today believed the veiling of the face to be obligatory"

I am truly sorry that this statement is false, and no one of the imams say the niqab, or face veil is obligatory. the source of my opponent is not a trusted scholar of I slam anyways but as I already shown the opinion of one of the imams in my first rebuttals I will add one more imam here:

وفي كتاب "البيان والتحصيل" لابن رشد الجد عن مالك أنه سئل عما يظهر من وجه المرأة، فأدار عمامته تحت ذقنه وفوق حاجبيه معلناً بذلك جواز ظهور دائرة الوجه.... وكذلك في "المدونة" (2/221(ونقله ابن عبدالبر في "التمهيد" (15-111) وارتضاه.

Literal translation: In the book Albayan wa tahseel of Ibn Rushd Al jad, about Malik that he was asked about what appears from the face of the woman, so he circled his Amamh (head hat made of a long cloth) under his chin and above his eye browns announcing by this that it is allowed to show the face. ( also in book almodawana 2/221, and was taken by Ibn Bar in book Attamheed 111-15 and accepted it.

So it is really sad what the translators are doing to Islam with their biased translations, I now can understand Christians.

Please read in this link for more about the twisted translations that my opponent used :

http://www.muhajabah.com...

And in order to see the image I could not load in previous round, please to go here:

http://www.debate.org...

Finally I hope you have a good Idea now that the Niqab, although it is a good habit, is still not obligatory, and the women who veil but do not wear niqab are not sinning according to Islamic rulings.
Debate Round No. 4
87 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Fruitytree 4 years ago
Fruitytree
Sola accepting it doesn't mean you are right , maybe you scared her..
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
sorry again
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
well if i would be wrong persons have not done action according to my proposal.
well.
i was shocked to see voter participated.
and none was muslim i was expecting muslims.
well whatever.
sorry if i hurt any body.
i am not frustrated.
my first debate was like this man lol.
i never complained.
but here all are my friends.
so i did.
i dont think any body should mind coz i think i am not wrong and sola accepted it,.
Posted by Talib.ul-Ilm 4 years ago
Talib.ul-Ilm
There is such thing as bias.
Posted by Fruitytree 4 years ago
Fruitytree
Isn't he voting for personal opinion in the first place ?

Didn't You and I present enough evidence to doubt that the votes will be about that?

I invited him amongst others and I don't know any of my DDO friends personally how can he just accuse people without evidence.

Why do we debate at all then ?
Posted by Talib.ul-Ilm 4 years ago
Talib.ul-Ilm
I agree with you fruity. But you have to understand his frustrations. The votes on this debate must be about evidence, and not about desires or personal opinion. That is the main issue he is having.
Posted by Fruitytree 4 years ago
Fruitytree
Makhdoom you're acting childish, and taking it too personally I think. and you accuse people intentions, and moreover you swear ? what is wrong with you ?
Posted by TN05 4 years ago
TN05
Makhdom5 - I thought swearing was not permissible under Islam.
Posted by Sola.Gratia 4 years ago
Sola.Gratia
Makhdoom I understand your concern but the name calling and vileness is unnecessary. I'm a human being and make mistakes just as much as you do. I'm gonna fix my little mistake and then everyone will be happy again.

Also fruitytree is not someone I regularly talk to in fact I wasn't expecting to ever get a message from her to ask me to vote on her debate. This is new to me that she did that.

Have a great day!
Posted by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
further more she also gave occurrence which can not be conclusive and there is 100% own interpretation even from later scholar not at the time of prophet saww.
also the conduct to pro coz. he never complained about language.
but con said some one cant understand fact if he or she dont know Arabic.
but i wonder all voter understand and gave the vote to con.
this is disgusting.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by makhdoom5 4 years ago
makhdoom5
Talib.ul-IlmFruitytreeTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: first of all tackling vote bomb from non muslim. coz they dont know the sensitivity of issue. plus the pro provided the translations and tafseer's references and con gave the occurrences. which do not suggests that its not obligatory. also picture drawn by pro her self is not valid evidence. that pro can also do he can draw and put.
Vote Placed by Sola.Gratia 4 years ago
Sola.Gratia
Talib.ul-IlmFruitytreeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: leaving this as a tie because both had good conduct in their responses to each other, had decent grammar and spelling when justifying their point of views, both made very good arguments concerning the topic (which i afmit know little of) and both used valid sources of which fulfills this issue.
Vote Placed by TN05 4 years ago
TN05
Talib.ul-IlmFruitytreeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I am no scholar about Islam, and I really don't have any sort of knowledge about arguments between the Qu'ran and other Islamic texts. However, I think makhdoom5's vote was inappropriate because religion has no impact on who can vote at DDO.
Vote Placed by cybertron1998 4 years ago
cybertron1998
Talib.ul-IlmFruitytreeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: why I agreed before. I mean its the person's choice. also con provided source. I want to see where pro found his info