The Instigator
jonpistone2
Pro (for)
Winning
112 Points
The Contender
BeautifulDisaster
Con (against)
Losing
92 Points

The Obama Care bill should NOT have been passed

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 34 votes the winner is...
jonpistone2
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/24/2010 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,974 times Debate No: 11854
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (64)
Votes (34)

 

jonpistone2

Pro

I would like to say a few words here before starting my opening argument.
I respectfully request that only an American Citizen please join this debate on the 'con' side. I have nothing against view points from other countries on health care, but with a bill where American tax dollars are being used, I find it to be a more honest debate between two citizens directly effected. If I could have, I would have voted No to this bill and look forward to debating with someone who would have voted yes. (http://www.examiner.com...) Thank you.

On to the topic:

My contention is that the health care system in America is and has been broken for quite some time now. It is an important topic but not more important than our economy, jobs, etc. This bill was very politically motivated and rushed though without getting all the facts ahead of time. It is a simple case of throwing money after a problem and hoping some of it sticks. This plan will cost even more money than expected and will not cover ever single American. Health care reform is an important issue but there should have been a smaller and more controlled plan proposed rather than this monster overhaul of health care.

Aside from this bill costing more money and putting America more in debt, there is also a problem in terms of the government controlling yet another aspect of American lives. The main argument against health care is against the insurance company, but this bill will effect the doctor's jobs far more than the insurance companies. Additionally, this bill has a lot of special exceptions and deals for certain people and states as well as additional government take-overs that are not related to health care. This alone makes this bill unfair for the American people as whole.

Again, we need health care reform. Every American should have the right for some sort of basic coverage of their health. This plan does not do that, it is not opening a small door for the few uninsured to walk through and have some basic access. It is taking over the whole industry and making decisions for the industry which it has shown a very poor track record of doing in the past.

It comes down to this simple point. If I had a vote on this exact bill, I would have voted NO. I welcome my opponent to share his or her thoughts on this issue next. Again, I request that my opponent be a citizen of the United States and is someone who would have voted Yes to this specific Obama Care bill. Thank you.
BeautifulDisaster

Con

If the health care system has been 'broken' for 'quite some time', why is everyone freaking out because Obama is fixing it? President Obama has completed a task that had been worked on by seven Presidents before him. This reform was not a decision open to the public because it really doesn't matter what you think about it. People that are afraid of change always focus on the negative aspects. I don't quite understand people's negative outlook on this topic, though. Is it because they think it will change their choice of doctor? Is it because they think their coverage at work will change? Is it because they think their premiums will go up? Is it because they didn't get to vote on it? Is it because they've only heard half the story? Is it because they don't want to spend their taxes helping out the poor and 'lazy' (as I have heard from several people)? Or is it because you just really don't know how to feel about it?

Health reform will make health care more affordable by promoting the largest middle class tax cut for health care in history, reducing premium costs for tens of millions of families and small business owners who are priced out of coverage today. This helps 32 million Americans afford health care who do not get it today-and makes coverage more affordable to many more. Under the plan, 95% of Americans will be insured.
It sets up a new competitive health insurance market giving millions of Americans the same choices of insurance that members of Congress will have. It will end discrimination against Americans with pre-existing conditions. Have you ever been denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition? It's not good. And, it puts our budget and economy on a more stable path by reducing the deficit by more than $100 billion over the next 10 years by cutting government overspending and reining in waste, fraud, and abuse.

Why are people scared of this?
Debate Round No. 1
jonpistone2

Pro

To answer your first question, everyone is 'freaking out' about this bill because of all the numerous problems this bill creates rather than actually fixing anything. There is clearly a problem with our health care system, but no one wants to make things any worse than they already are.

A comment I am fully shocked to hear you say is that this bill was "not a decision open to the public". In fact, this statement is nearly laughable. This bill 100% effects the American people and is being voted on elected people who get voted into office by those same American people. As Lincoln tells us, this is a "government of the people, by the people (and) for the people". I do not want to live in a country where the government dictates rules to the people as if they are incapable of making decisions on their own and where the 'all powerful' government treats its citizens like uneducated children.

An interesting point in this bill is that some congress members and their staff will be exempt from participating in Obama care. (http://www.thefalseoswalds.com...) If this bill is so wonderful and if the voice of the American people should not heard, why is it that congress and their staff are not fully participating?!?

The fears you listed are well thought out and accurate for a number of people. Some you left out would include this bill costing the American people lots more money and putting our country even further in debt. It also will force the American public to actually purchase items from a private industry in order to be a citizen of the country without crime or punishment. The premiums will go up and this will not give incentive for people to live a healthier life and take better care of themselves because someone else will be paying for their mistakes.

The information my opponent continue to promote show the gross exaggerations that are being rumored around the media. The truth is, this bill will actually cause an increase in taxes to the middle class. This bill will raise taxes on more than 40 million Americans (http://www.nrsc.org...). Experts agree that under Obama care, premiums will continue to climb. (http://www.buzzle.com...)

This bill does not give the American people the same care as congress gets. It also will cost $1+ Trillion over the next 10 years to cover an extra few million Americans. (http://sweetness-light.com...) About 90% of the American public was covered before Obama care, and according to your numbers, 95% of Americans will be covered after Obama care, that means all those who pay taxes will have to pay $1+ Trillion into a system to cover 5% of the American people. That is a large bill for about half the American people to pay while covering an estimated 5% of the population. You are making this sound as though the bill creates more competition among health care insurance companies but it surely does not. If you were looking for better insurance rates, you should have been in support of a plan which allowed companies to compete across state lines; not included in this bill.

This bill does not create competition between insurance companies. There was a proposal by Republicans to let the American people shop across state lines for their insurance to lower costs, but that proposal was rejected for this bill. This bill will add to our ever-increasing debt and cause our economy even more problems. A health care related portion of this bill was purposely placed in a separate 'doctor fix' bill on its own. The reason for this is because this health care bill and the doctor fix will create a tremendous amount of debt in future years. In this bill, however, there is a very unrelated piece of legislation; a takeover of the student loan industry. The interest collected from the student loans will offset some of the huge costs of this health care bill. Though, this is clearly a ploy to make it appear as though health care is not as costly as it really is, but in actuality, it will only make the government larger and able to dictate how Americans live their lives that much more.
BeautifulDisaster

Con

You were really "fully shocked" to hear me say that this bill was not a decision open to the public? Did anyone go to the polls to vote on the Health Care Reform? Because if so, I clearly missed it (by the way, I would have voted 'yes'). The only thing the American people got to vote on was who we wanted to be our next President (Obama WON! :P ). This bill DOES NOT effect 100% of the American people. If you already have insurance, then you don't need this government health care. If you don't already have insurance and don't want "Obama Care", then go buy insurance! This bill is just for protecting those Americans that do not have or cannot afford insurance. How is that a bad thing? Because your taxes will help pay for this "Obama Care"? Very little of your taxes will go to this, and besides, your taxes already go towards things you might not approve of or want them to go to. Get over it.

Lincoln is dead and has been for quite some time now. If he was alive today and repeated his comment, well, I'd kiss you. If you do not want to live in a country where the government "dictates" rules to the people blah, blah, blah...then move. How have you lasted the last 30 years in this country? Because there are laws left and right, all day long, telling Americans what they can or cannot do. That's why we have police, they help enforce the laws.

"An interesting point in this bill is that some congress members and their staff will be exempt from participating in Obama care. (http://www.thefalseoswalds.com......) If this bill is so wonderful and if the voice of the American people should not heard, why is it that congress and their staff are not fully participating?!?"

Nobody HAS to have this "Obama Care", as you call it. Go get Liberty National or Blue Cross. Maybe the folks in Congress can afford other insurance. If you can afford it, why would you get government health care? That's just stupid.

"The fears you listed are well thought out and accurate for a number of people. Some you left out would include this bill costing the American people lots more money and putting our country even further in debt. It also will force the American public to actually purchase items from a private industry in order to be a citizen of the country without crime or punishment. The premiums will go up and this will not give incentive for people to live a healthier life and take better care of themselves because someone else will be paying for their mistakes."

I thought I already explained this in R1?
http://www.whitehouse.gov...

"The information my opponent continue to promote show the gross exaggerations that are being rumored around the media. The truth is, this bill will actually cause an increase in taxes to the middle class. This bill will raise taxes on more than 40 million Americans (http://www.nrsc.org......). Experts agree that under Obama care, premiums will continue to climb. (http://www.buzzle.com......)"

I believe you have that backwards. My source is http://www.whitehouse.gov...
That's the WHITE HOUSE, not Fox News or buzzle.com

Here's another one to look at: http://democrats.senate.gov...
Debate Round No. 2
jonpistone2

Pro

My opponent continues to mock the fact that those in power have won the elections and makes it sound as though, just because they won the election, they can do whatever they want without regards to the will of the American people. Let me remind you please, that this is not a government of dictators. Obama did win this election, but that election was to represent the American people, not to force his own personal agenda down our throats.

My opponent states, " If you don't already have insurance and don't want "Obama Care", then go buy insurance!" Which brings up two questions. 1) What do you think Obama Care is other than forcing each and every American to actually buy insurance? There is no public option in this bill (http://www.huffingtonpost.com...). and 2) Why should Americans be forced to buy private health insurance?!? Should they not have the right to live without spending money in the private sector without crime or punishment?!?

The whole idea that this bill is only for a small amount is ludicrous. While I do agree that only a small amount of people actually benefit from this bill (we agreed on a number around 5% of the country in round 2), the money being spent to aid this 5% will come from the rest of the country. There will be hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars spent over the next 10 years to insure 5% of the American people. That is a lot of money which creates a larger debt, puts our economy in a worse position, does nothing to help create jobs and is only making a bad problem in terms of health care, much worse.

My opponent talks about those who cannot afford insurance as if they have no other option, but they do. We already have a system in place, run by the government, that offers insurance, free of cost, to those who do not have it; it's called Medicaid (http://www.cms.gov...), or if you are old enough, Medicare (http://www.medicare.gov...).

A separate issue entirely is talking about how tax dollars are being spent but I would be remiss not to talk about this for just a moment. My opponent states that, "...your taxes already go towards things you might not approve of or want them to go to. Get over it." as if it is okay that tax dollars are being shamelessly spent and it is okay because the all-powerful and all-knowing government should decide where our money goes rather than those who earn it. I could not disagree with this more. In fact, after this health care bill was passed, nearly 80% of the American people believe that this government is too big and is not to be trusted. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com...)
Though as I said, this is a topic to debate at another time, but I surely welcome my opponent to challenge me on such a thing.

The general theme my opponent seams to present is that the government knows better than the American public. He makes it sound as though it is okay for them to increase taxes on the middle class and spend them in any way they want, even if we do not agree with it. He makes it sound as though the government works for themselves rather than working for the American people. And while he continues to disrespect some of the most greatest men in our history by saying things like, "Lincoln is dead and has been for quite some time now." My opponent's mind has conjured up a way of somehow imagining Lincoln no longer believing this country is a government of the people by the people and for the people. Further my opponent disrespectfully adds, "If you do not want to live in a country where the government "dictates" rules to the people blah, blah, blah...then move." as if a government dictating rules to the people, going against our founding fathers, is the 'right way' to handle things. It goes against nearly everything this country was founded on and why we broke away from England to believe that this country should give unlimited power to the government and no voice to the people. It is shocking to hear people say that you must abide by their rules or leave the country. Is that your last line of defense? Can you not have an educated debate on a very serious topic? Must you stoop to such a level as simply telling myself and those who agree with me to leave our own country?!?

In closing, I would ask my opponent to not counter my factual links with information about health care raising taxes with white house links that do not explain taxes one way or another. Please post the direct link to your information in the future, not a general home page. Thank you.
BeautifulDisaster

Con

How can you say that Obama "forced his own 'personal agenda' down our throats"? Seven Presidents before him wanted and tried to do the same thing; Hilary Clinton wanted this as well. He did not pass this Bill on his own, you know?

"The whole idea that this bill is only for a small amount is ludicrous. While I do agree that only a small amount of people actually benefit from this bill (we agreed on a number around 5% of the country in round 2), the money being spent to aid this 5% will come from the rest of the country. There will be hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars spent over the next 10 years to insure 5% of the American people. That is a lot of money which creates a larger debt, puts our economy in a worse position, does nothing to help create jobs and is only making a bad problem in terms of health care, much worse."

I don't agree that only 5% of the American people are going to benefit from this Bill. SO many people need health insurance and cannot afford it. Most small businesses do not even offer insurance, or if they do, you can't afford it and it's not worth it (My link for that is personal experience and basic knowledge).

"My opponent talks about those who cannot afford insurance as if they have no other option, but they do. We already have a system in place, run by the government, that offers insurance, free of cost, to those who do not have it; it's called Medicaid (http://www.cms.gov......), or if you are old enough, Medicare (http://www.medicare.gov......)."

Medicaid does not always cover the people that need it. If you work, you might make too much money to qualify for Medicaid. But, not enough money to buy insurance. If you don't work but your spouse does, he/she might make to much to qualify for Medicaid. It's like being in limbo. This Bill will help those stuck in limbo. This Bill will also help those with pre-existing conditions get the medical treatment they need. That was in R1 also.

"A separate issue entirely is talking about how tax dollars are being spent but I would be remiss not to talk about this for just a moment. My opponent states that, "...your taxes already go towards things you might not approve of or want them to go to. Get over it." as if it is okay that tax dollars are being shamelessly spent and it is okay because the all-powerful and all-knowing government should decide where our money goes rather than those who earn it. I could not disagree with this more. In fact, after this health care bill was passed, nearly 80% of the American people believe that this government is too big and is not to be trusted. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com......)"

It might not be okay that your taxes go to things you don't approve of, get to vote on, or even have knowledge of, but why is it people are saying something about it NOW? Nobody said anything about their taxes being spent unfairly, until Obama came along. Maybe 80% of Americans believe that "this Government is too big and is not trusted", but people are scared of change. People are afraid of the unknown. People hear crap from people like you and the wrong news channels, and they get worried (By the way, glad to see you use MSNBC and Huffington now. You really should change sides). Change is GOOD people! He said it himself in R1, "The health care system in America is and has been broken for quite some time now." So, let our VOTED in leader LEAD. This is his job to run our country as he sees fit. He wants to fix the health care system, he wants to fix education in American, and he wants to fix the job market. Stop being scared of things you don't know enough about and go with the flow. What else can you really do anyway?

As far as it being 'ok' to go against our founding fathers...things change. Life would not continue to exist if change had not occurred. And, I'm not TRYING to be rude by saying "then move", but there's nothing you can do about this Bill. Nothing. You have been living in this country all this time having rules set upon you and every other American, and NOW ya'll have a problem with it? I think the problem goes beyond what ya'll are saying, but nobody wants to admit it.
I posted those links because if you read them, it answers all your questions and fears and doubts. And none of those are the home page, this is: http://www.whitehouse.gov...

From this, and the other ones I put up, you can see what is going to happen with this Bill (sometimes the news is not the best source).

Here are some more for you: http://my.barackobama.com...

http://www.whitehouse.gov...

Thank YOU!
Debate Round No. 3
jonpistone2

Pro

Past Presidents did not try to pass costly legislation when our country was in the most debt, by far, that it has ever seen. This bill will add to the debt and Obama Care will only cause things to be worse. The only recourse to this ever mounting debt will be for the government to raise taxes. Lawrence O'Donnell (previous Democratic Chief of Staff) says this will be our largest tax increase in history. (http://newsbusters.org...)

An additional 5% of Americans being covered under this bill is a number you used earlier. You said this bill will offer coverage to 95% of the people. With about 30 million people not begin covered (about 10% of the American population), that means 90% of the people have coverage at the moment. If you subtract 90 from 95 you are left with 5%. This 5% is important to cover, but not at a cost of hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars.

It is not a small businesses' job to offer health insurance coverage. The reason most do not offer this is so they can pay their employees more money. Under this plan, small businesses will be forced to give insurance to everyone and end up costing them lots of money which will in turn force them to cut wages or worse, cut jobs. I understand that Obama care was a far more important agenda by this administration to be pushed through rather than help improve the job market in one of the worst unemployment times in our history. Caterpillar has already shown us this problem on a large scale. The Obama care bill will cost Caterpilliar $100,000,000 in the first year alone (http://www.riehlworldview.com...) and AT&T will be forced to spend $1,000,000,000. (http://sweetness-light.com...) Not every business will see an increase this high, but they will all see increases. Small businesses are already struggling to survive in their competitive markets and this bill forces them to additionally pay tens of thousands plus dollars each year.

If my opponent has a problem with the regulations that qualify a person for Medicaid, then why not alter those qualifications. It would be a small and simple fix and would surely cost less than a trillion dollars in the first 10 years. (http://sweetness-light.com...). I agree this bill covers pre-existing conditions as you continue to bring that up. But you fail to recognize this bill will have a government panel deciding who gets what type of care. While you may get to pay into an insurance system even if you have a pre-existing condition, you may not be able to get the treatment your doctor says you need. Obama has admitted that he wants the government to decide what health care Americans receive. (http://www.washingtontimes.com...)

My opponent said "Nobody said anything about their taxes being spent unfairly, until Obama came along." And to be honest, I actually laughed out loud slightly when I read this. I have never heard a comment farther from the truth posted here. Americans have been upset about their high taxes for lifetimes. I do agree that Obama is spending more money than any other president ever has (and he has only been in office for just over a year) which makes people very upset because they know the government only makes money by taking tax payer dollars. Again though, this is a separate issues that I will debate in another forum if my opponent chooses.

My opponent is trying to turn this debate into an argument over who was voted into office in November. And to talk about how much power Obama has over the American people now that he is in office. The president, however, is elected to represent the people, he is not a King. Though you may not realize that after looking at this Obama care bill. Obama has already called for cuts in Medicare and Medicaid (http://www.wsws.org...) and additionally will ration care as the government sees fit. The elderly will primarily be the ones effected by this. The bill has cancer treatment rationing, it calls for mandating the government to order end-of-life plans, and puts the government in control of care you receive. (http://hubpages.com...)

This bill includes the takeover of the student loan industry, it exempts unions from paying the Obama care taxes everyone else must pay (http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com...), premiums will increase, taxes will increase, the bill will cost more than projected(http://cnsnews.com...) and has additional deals for certain states.

Simply put, Obama care makes the problem worse.

I would like to thank my opponent for an open and honest debate.
BeautifulDisaster

Con

First of all, I want to thank my opponent for inviting me to this debate.

Now for my final argument, let me say that we all know who our President is, and we all know he has a tough job ahead of him. Unfortunately, we don't all know how important this Health Care Reform is. Government Health Care is just as essential as any other government ran services, such as police, military, and the postal service. Each and every day in this country, Americans are grappling with health care premiums that are growing three times the rate of wages and insurance company policies that limit coverage and raise out-of-pocket costs. Thousands are losing their insurance coverage each day. Without reform, the burdens on America's families and businesses will continue to multiply. This Health Care Reform is an issue of vital concern to every American, and it should be.
Under this reform, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your private health insurance plan, you can keep your plan. This reform is just an option to those without insurance. You are under no obligation to shift to a public plan. But, if you don't have insurance, you will finally have access to quality coverage you can afford. If you do have insurance you will benefit from more security and more stability when it comes to your insurance. If you lose your job, change jobs, or move, you will not have to worry about losing health coverage. This bill sets up tougher consumer protections that will hold insurance companies accountable and stop them from exploiting you with unfair practices. It prohibits insurance companies from denying coverage because of a person's medical history; They will not be able to water down your coverage when you need it the most. They will no longer be able to place an arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or a lifetime. There will be a limit on how much out-of-pocket expenses because, "No one in America should go broke because they are sick." -President Obama, Aug. 21, 2009
Insurance companies will be required to cover routine check ups and preventive care. This reform will help bring down skyrocketing costs, which will mean real savings for families, businesses, and government. This reform will provide every American family and business a measure of security and stability that they lack today.

Private insurance companies are the ones in charge of managing the pool of money and dull out the money to the people who need it. On average, these companies take out 10-20 cents for every dollar put in. Some of that goes to administrator costs, some are used for political campaigns to fight against health insurance reform, and some of the money is pure profit for the investors. Medicare takes out about 2-3 cents per dollar, but none of that is a profit. With government health care, there is no money coming out, so the money actually goes to caring for people's health.

"My opponent said "Nobody said anything about their taxes being spent unfairly, until Obama came along." And to be honest, I actually laughed out loud slightly when I read this. I have never heard a comment farther from the truth posted here."

Yes, people have been complaining about high taxes for years, but not over whether or not they had an option about what their taxes are going towards, or that they didn't have a say in the matter.

There are lots of outrageous rumors circulating on the internet, television and in basic conversations within America. I could talk until I'm blue in the face trying to defend this reform, but the people that believe these rumors are never going to take what I say into perspective. They will only appreciate this reform if something happens to them and they find themselves in need of the Obama Care. I do admit though, the bill could be better, perhaps, but reform has to start somewhere.
Debate Round No. 4
64 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by vickynoh 2 years ago
vickynoh
I support the Obama Care bill(therefore is on the con side), but the con side of this debate(Beautiful Disaster) is absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe she even got 92 points.. surely people just vote bombed on the side they were supporting, without actually reading the debate.
Posted by RoyLatham 2 years ago
RoyLatham
No one knows. or possibly could know, what it does to corporations overall. Implementation depends upon bureaucrats writing about 100,000 pages of "details." So one effect will be to add the cost of compliance to health care. There would a new profession of reading, interpreting, applying, and ultimately litigating the regulations. Currently, the profit margin of health insurance companies is about 5.5%. Some of the major providers like Blue Cross are non-profit. Costs must rise.

The Congressional Budget Office uses static scoring of costs. That means that when the bill imposes a 40% tax on policies over $10,000, they figure that no one will drop coverage and the government will get all the tax revenue. That's ridiculous. There is also a high tax on medical devices. Reimbursement to doctors is cut dramatically, and the bill assumes that doctors will continue to provide the services. What would actually happen is that care will be rationed, with the queue length limiting demand.
Posted by 16kadams 2 years ago
16kadams
I have you tube video on this:
Posted by Rich_Cab 3 years ago
Rich_Cab
when this bill was being voted upon the ENTIRE republican party AND some additional democrats had voted against this bill. When an entire party plus some of the other vote against it, i think it should not be passed.
Posted by EvilLiberal 3 years ago
EvilLiberal
The bill was so far from universal healthcare, progressive/liberal ideals and so favourable for the corporations it was ridiculous. Well, at least the whole world now knows that Obama is in the right end of the political spectrum and cannot reasonably be called a socialist. The public option was a joke to any real socialist, but it might have been a good first step. However, the fact that it and all the central things in the bill didn't pass. Eliminating the public option would be a (hilarious) joke to a socialist. The bill helped the greedy HC companies in America and didn't do a damn thing for the people of America. After all, they aren't the ones bribing those in the executive branch/legistlative brach so why would any politician in America give a schaisse about real citizens? When the bourgeoisie start giving a f*** about the proletariat in America (or anywhere else), will be the day I burn my Finnish flag and will replace it with an American flag.

So, America has a president who made backroom deals with companies, removed everything the bill was supposed to deliver, and meanwhile screwed those who elected him. May God help you all.
Posted by Itsallovernow 4 years ago
Itsallovernow
I think to hate America you'd have to be mentally unstable =)
Posted by jonpistone2 4 years ago
jonpistone2
1 points for those who support our Constitution.
0 points for those who spit on it.

I've got you 1-0 forever!! :)
Posted by BeautifulDisaster 4 years ago
BeautifulDisaster
20 points is not dominating me! get a life!
Posted by jonpistone2 4 years ago
jonpistone2
p.s. I just find it funny that you and your boyfriend continue to debate after I DOMINATED you in the voting (despite your cheating efforts) LOL

keep laughing it up.... 1-0 ME! :)
Posted by jonpistone2 4 years ago
jonpistone2
you think its funny to spit on the Constitution?
are you mentally unstable or just hate America?
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Vote Placed by banker 4 years ago
banker
jonpistone2BeautifulDisasterTied
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Vote Placed by MadSammyboy 4 years ago
MadSammyboy
jonpistone2BeautifulDisasterTied
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Vote Placed by jdizzle 4 years ago
jdizzle
jonpistone2BeautifulDisasterTied
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Vote Placed by DOINGAGREATJOB 4 years ago
DOINGAGREATJOB
jonpistone2BeautifulDisasterTied
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Vote Placed by Railsguardian 4 years ago
Railsguardian
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