The Instigator
StalinIncarnate
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Times
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/9/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,305 times Debate No: 71370
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (23)
Votes (0)

 

StalinIncarnate

Pro

As stated. Looking through the depths of the inter webs, you find the majority of its dwellers are in major opposition against American National Healthcare, which I then ask them and myself, why?

If accepted, please prepare to provide links to all information. Remember, Logic and Rationality over personal emotions.
Times

Con

I am against the ACA (Obamacare) for the specific reason that what we were promised is not what we received.

Everything from Obama's lie of the year :
http://www.politifact.com...

To the stated goal of the ACA to get all the uninsured into healthcare plans and to stop using emergency room visits, that cost taxpayers more, never happened.

http://www.usatoday.com...

The ACA did not provide healthcare for all uninsured Americans, it did not let you keep the doctor or the insurance you liked, it did not lower medical costs per family, and it did not lower taxpayer costs so in all areas, the ACA is a horrible failure

What should have been passed is medicare for all if the stated goal was National healthcare. What we got instead was higher cost insurance policies partially subsidized by the Federal government and the only true winners being those Multi-National corporations running the insurance policies that are issuing insurance cards but not really providing much actual care.
Debate Round No. 1
StalinIncarnate

Pro

Greeting and Salutations. I will begin refutation(All of opponents statements in double apostrophes).

"To the stated goal of the ACA to get all the uninsured into healthcare plans and to stop using emergency room visits, that cost taxpayers more, never happened."

Please provide sources towards the Goals intended. The goal was to insure more Americans, not all. You cannot hold something as arbitrary as that against the ACA, and to be quite honest, you though Obamacare would help insure ALL Americans? That's quite naive, but nevertheless optimistic I suppose.

"The ACA did not provide healthcare for all uninsured Americans, it did not let you keep the doctor or the insurance you liked, it did not lower medical costs per family, and it did not lower taxpayer costs so in all areas, the ACA is a horrible failure"

Again, something as arbitrary as the ACA isn't meant to insure EVERY American, that's such a blank and naive statement to make. What exactly do you mean by "it did not let you keep the doctor or the insurance you liked"? What does that mean? I assume you know the inner workings of the bill, but that makes no sense whatsoever. In your context, in supplies a subsidary to your insurance plan. This is a universal working, not selective.
You claim absolutely and utterly fallacious statements regarding price reduction and taxpayer costs. The entire objective of Obamacare was, and is to reduce Healthcare insurance, and it has, indisputably done so. You didn't even include a reference, you made a untrue and incorrect statement out of personal opinion.

"and it did not lower taxpayer costs so in all areas". That was not a objective. Quite simply, it was to insure and provide cheaper insurance, not "Save money". Again, you make a fallacious statement without reference. Does it matter to you that a lower class family could become bankrupt from Medical costs of a broken leg? Does that affect you whatsoever? I would dare ask if you are a US citizen, to have such a rash opinion.

"the ACA is a horrible failure". Between 8 million and 11.4 million American Citizens have enrolled/received tax breaks/received subsidies for Health insurance(1). I that's a failure, I want to know what success is. Name in any respect, how the ACA failed horribly.
(1)(https://www.google.ca...)

"What should have been passed is medicare for all if the stated goal was National healthcare. What we got instead was higher cost insurance policies partially subsidized by the Federal government and the only true winners being those Multi-National corporations running the insurance policies that are issuing insurance cards but not really providing much actual care."

I do agree that National Healthcare is a priority, but that's irrelevant. We are discussing ObamaCare, and I've shown you how it has affected the lives of Millions of Americans, In a good way. If I may, I wish to make more points.

1.Obamacare has provided for Insurance/Insurance assistance to almost/over 10 million Americans(1). As stated in Obama's actual addressing speech for the ACA, he has done as intended(2).
(2)(https://www.google.ca...)
2.ObamaCare has expanded to include many benefits to the buyer. The ACA has created the following guarantees for individuals/families looking for Health insurance.
-NO annual or lifetime limits on Health insurance
-Large employers MUST offer coverage to full time workers by 2015
-Medical insurance is GUARANTEED, so you cannot be denied it for any reason.
You CANNOT be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions.

Actual Benefits? There's an entire list(3), and a rather lengthy I may add. Please read it and gain a sense to how Americans are being positively influenced by the ACA.
(3)(https://www.google.ca...)

Overall, I've refuted all of my opponents points, and added more. I would like ask the viewers to pay extra attention to his fallacious statements made without Reference or links, which I've disproved with my own.
Times

Con

Times forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Times

Con

So let me get this straight, you want to completely ignore all of the promises made by Obama to get the bill passed?

You keep calling the expectation of fulfilled promises by Obama "naive" when it applies to the ACA, why? The American people heard those constantly repeated promises and believed Obama was trustworthy and let him pass it, even stayed silent when Obama had to use sketchy tactics after he lost his super majority because they trusted him to keep his promises.

My stand is based on the "bait and switch" tactics used by Obama and the Democrat leadership to promise us one thing, and to give us something completely different. I am going to lay out the point by number and I would ask you to address those promises and explain why Americans should not hold Obama accountable for those failed promises.

1. Obama promised many, many times that under the ACA Americans would be allowed to keep doctors and insurance they liked. This was a core promise because many Americans liked their doctors and healthcare plans they already had and did not want the Government to take away those close personal relationships. This key lie is what kept Americans from openly opposing the passage of the ACA and was listed as the lie of the year by Politifact who is normally very friendly to Obama and Democrat agendas:
http://www.politifact.com...

2. One of the key selling points of the ACA was how we had to get everyone into the game and not letting people to go without health insurance and to just go to the emergency room when they were sick because those emergency rooms were mandated to help people even without health insurance. Those emergency room visits cost many times more than standard medical care and it was a key point in selling Obamacare as a cost savings measure shifting Americans into regular doctor office visits instead of using the much higher cost emergency room visits:
http://www.usatoday.com...

3. Also let's remember that a Insurance card is not the same thing as medical care, in the link above they give one of the reasons for the massive increase of people going to the emergency room is they can't find a doctor to take their insurance so they end up in the emergency room. All along the stated goal was to get everyone healthcare but they are not getting healthcare, but they do have a pretty piece of plastic because of the ACA.

4. Obama promised that the average family would see an average "reduction" of healthcare premiums of $2,500 per year, he made that promise many, many times and started making it way back to his first debates against Hillary:

"Point number two is that I am actually not interested in just capping premiums. I want to lower premiums by about an average of $2,500 per family, per year, because people right now cannot afford it" ~Obama
http://votesmart.org...

The average family has not seen any reduction of premiums, a very small percentage of people are getting subsidies sure, but the premiums themselves have all gone way up and most Americans do not get any subsidy to counter those severely increased rates.

http://abcnews.go.com...

5. The stated goal of the ACA was to get everyone insured and paying into pools to help lower premiums. This was the reason Obama was given the rating of "full flop" by politifact after parts of the ACA came out with an individual mandate when Obama had slammed Hillary on the campaign trail because her plan had an individual mandate and Obama;s plan did not have an individual mandate.
http://www.politifact.com...

So after so many hard promises were made to never have individual mandates with Obamacare, why did Obama flip-flop?

Because getting everyone insured was how they had to balance and cover the costs to sell the plan, they gave pretty promises of lower premiums and cost savings based on all Americans getting insured but that did not happen in reality and that is why we see the huge increases in premiums as noted in my link for #4.

Averages for the uninsured is still around 30 million people some sources say a little higher, some a little lower depending on their political leanings but certainly no matter how you slice it, we have spent a massive amount of money to only reduce the uninsured number by 6% or so.
http://www.washingtonpost.com...

6. Subsidy confusion is a big part of the ACA, buried deep in the bill where almost all Americans have no clue about is a bad side of the Government subsidies, if any of your situation changes during the year, pay increases, divorce, job changes or even moving to a new area could drastically change your eligibility and the IRS will hit you with a penalty at the end of the year.

http://www.politico.com...

7. The ACA created a lot of new taxes and while some seem reasonable to most Americans such as higher taxes on people making over $200,000 a year (known as the middle class) some of them just seem strange as in the new 10% tax on tanning services, where did they come up with that?

A 2.3% excise tax on medical equipment with a base cost over $100. Now stop and think about that for a second, when was the last time you saw medical equipment that was less than $100? This is just another embedded tax that will drive up costs and some in the industry are saying it is costing jobs:

http://thehill.com...

Even Elizabeth Warren has said the device tax should be eliminated.

Now I will address the few points my opponent has offered in support of the Obamacare we got instead of the one we were promised.

A. "The entire objective of Obamacare was, and is to reduce Healthcare insurance, and it has, indisputably done so. You didn't even include a reference, you made a untrue and incorrect statement out of personal opinion."

*Reply: As I listed on #4 above, even if lower insurance premiums was the "entire objective" (I have completely destroyed that claim) That goal was also a huge failure because costs are going way up after Obamacare so even based on your wrong claim of objective the ACA is a big failure.

Also, it is you not providing any support for your incorrecxt and untrue statements, only I have been providing links supporting my assertions that are credible.

B. "and it did not lower taxpayer costs so in all areas". That was not a objective. Quite simply, it was to insure and provide cheaper insurance, not "Save money". Again, you make a fallacious statement without reference.""

*Reply: Again, insurance is not cheaper as already proven and as I point out on numbers 2, 4 and 5. lower Emergency room costs to the Government, lower premiums, lower costs in general were promises (read objectives) made all along and I have given several links to prove this.

If you have a link proving there was never supposed to be any savings of any kind then please provide that link, no radical sites please.

C. Between 8 million and 11.4 million American Citizens have enrolled/received tax breaks/received subsidies for Health insurance(1). I that's a failure, I want to know what success is. Name in any respect, how the ACA failed horribly.

*Reply: It is a failure because that number is mostly existing insured Americans shifting to new policies, it does not reflect the complete failure to insure the uninsured, lower premiums and costs.
Debate Round No. 3
StalinIncarnate

Pro

I will begin by addressing your refutations on my statements.

"*Reply: As I listed on #4 above, even if lower insurance premiums was the "entire objective" (I have completely destroyed that claim) That goal was also a huge failure because costs are going way up after Obamacare so even based on your wrong claim of objective the ACA is a big failure."

I provided links showing in Black and White ObamaCare has, in fact Lowered Insurance Costs for Families and individuals alike! Did you bother to read it even? I would like to point out Cons ignorance over my statements.

"costs are going way up after Obamacare "

Complete and utter Hyperbole. Please read my Links and sources next time.(1)

ObamaCare has Trimmed HealthCare costs, while Increasing Receipients! That, my friend, is and undisputable accomplishment in American HealthCare reform.(2)

"Also, it is you not providing any support for your incorrecxt and untrue statements, only I have been providing links supporting my assertions that are credible."

First off, Typo on Cons part. You accuse me of not providing links. I"m sorry, are you Blind? I"ve provided Links to almost every statement and argument I"ve made.
Con makes a Ridiculous statement, which almost insults me.

"*Reply: Again, insurance is not cheaper as already proven and as I point out on numbers 2, 4 and 5. lower Emergency room costs to the Government, lower premiums, lower costs in general were promises (read objectives) made all along and I have given several links to prove this.

If you have a link proving there was never supposed to be any savings of any kind then please provide that link, no radical sites please."

You live in Blindness. I provide multiple links in each round. (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)

I"ve provide more then Enough evidence, from Multiple sources, to prove my point. ObamaCare has Lowered National HealthCare costs, Provided Insurance to over 11 million Previously uninsured Americans, and has Providied Subsidies to Families and individuals alike(2)(3). Con, please read my links and enough with the Blind ignorance and Arrogant Statements.

"*Reply: It is a failure because that number is mostly existing insured Americans shifting to new policies, it does not reflect the complete failure to insure the uninsured, lower premiums and costs."

C"mon man. You read the link I provided you, correct? It clearly Stated, All 11 Million were previously UNINSURED. Not whatever you think, or what you think is correct. I"ve done so much just to prevent Con from Making stupid statements like that. You want Reference? I suggest you provide you"re own. Won"t listen to my Words? Listen to the Words of people who do this or a Living.(1)(2)(3)
I would ask Viewers to Take into Account Cons Laziness in Reading my Links, and Repeating the same things from Round 1.
He has made completely ignorant statements, which I"ve refuted with MULTIPLE sources for each. It"s individuals like this who make Debate a Plethora of Arrogance, not an intellectual and enjoyable conversation of information.

I will address his Points he wishes to add.

"You keep calling the expectation of fulfilled promises by Obama "naive" when it applies to the ACA, why? The American people heard those constantly repeated promises and believed Obama was trustworthy and let him pass it, even stayed silent when Obama had to use sketchy tactics after he lost his super majority because they trusted him to keep his promises."

Obama Has fulfilled so much, and kept many of his Electoral Promises. Con, you"re making ignorant Statements again, without Reference. Here, Food for Thought.(4)

Cons First Point is one he has repeated from Round 1. I"ve addressed this multiple times.

" 2. One of the key selling points of the ACA was how we had to get everyone into the game and not letting people to go without health insurance and to just go to the emergency room when they were sick because those emergency rooms were mandated to help people even without health insurance. Those emergency room visits cost many times more than standard medical care and it was a key point in selling Obamacare as a cost savings measure shifting Americans into regular doctor office visits instead of using the much higher cost emergency room visits:"

Emergency room costs and Waiting periods have increased. I will concede. I would trade that for over 11 Million Americans and there families being insured.

Cons Third Point is Almost identical to his second.

Cons Fourth Point is Refuted by these Statistics. (4)(5)

"5. The stated goal of the ACA was to get everyone insured and paying into pools to help lower premiums. This was the reason Obama was given the rating of "full flop" by politifact after parts of the ACA came out with an individual mandate when Obama had slammed Hillary on the campaign trail because her plan had an individual mandate and Obama;s plan did not have an individual mandate."

What point are you trying to make here? You don"t specify anything.

"6. Subsidy confusion is a big part of the ACA, buried deep in the bill where almost all Americans have no clue about is a bad side of the Government subsidies, if any of your situation changes during the year, pay increases, divorce, job changes or even moving to a new area could drastically change your eligibility and the IRS will hit you with a penalty at the end of the year."

Con, that Link you provide Says nothing abour IRS Tax hits. Either you we"re to lazy to confirm if the Link was correct, or you"re trying to make information up.

"7. The ACA created a lot of new taxes and while some seem reasonable to most Americans such as higher taxes on people making over $200,000 a year (known as the middle class) some of them just seem strange as in the new 10% tax on tanning services, where did they come up with that?"

In the US,and in most First world countries, 200,000$ Dollars a Year is Considered an Extremely Wealthy Bracket of income.

(1)(http://www.google.com...)
(2)(https://www.google.com.mx...)
(3)(https://www.google.com.mx...)
(4)(https://www.google.com.mx...)
(5)(https://www.google.com.mx...)

Conclusion: Con has Made Multiple Statements, Implying Complete ignorance and Laziness, I quote

" Also, it is you not providing any support for your incorrecxt and untrue statements, only I have been providing links supporting my assertions that are credible."

Con Makes Hardly any Effort to address the Links provided, along with the New points I established.

ObamaCare Has Insured over 11 Million Previously uninsured American Citizens, that is, a Great achievment in American HealthCare reform. (2)
ObamaCare has Provided large Subsidies to Families and struggling individuals Alike.(2)(4)

Cons Main Point of Negativity Towards ObamaCare are Quite few, he states Waiting Rooms times have increased, but I respond by telling him the Amount of New patients.

I found this debate a Fun challenge. ObamaCare is a Milestone in HealthCare reform, and has Influenced so many for the better.

Vote Pro!
Times

Con

Wow, a lot of personal attacks on me calling me lazy and such but you dodged every single point and question I asked.

I ask if you believe we should ignore every promise made by Obama and the democrats to pass the ACA and you dodge.

I ask you to go number by number and reply to the individual promises made and while you did make a feeble reply to some of them, it was another form of dodge because you never supplied a single link to refute my points, you basically just kept saying the Obama lies do not matter.

Your entire argument is that 11 million people were shifted into Government programs with the ACA and nothing else matters. That is not a debate, that is a closed mind purely motivated by political loyalty, not intelligence and consideration of all points being offered. And by the way, the link you provide is ran by those pushing Obamacare, hardly an objective source. Your next link is a news conference by Obama, again not an objective source, then you go back to the official Obamacare site for your 3rd link. You have done "ZERO" research, you are just repeating what the Obama camp tells you to say.

Your last post was no different, you added 2 far Left sites dedicated to stroking the Obama ego and again, zero worth to any reasonable debate on the merits of the ACA.

Now let's look at the links I provide,
http://www.politifact.com...
http://www.usatoday.com...
http://votesmart.org...

http://abcnews.go.com...

If you bothered to click on that link you would see this headline: "Rising Health Costs Undermine Obama Pledge to Curb Trend" But keep limiting your knowledge of the ACA to only what is on the Obama official website. This proves even your single claim of cost savings is false.

http://www.politifact.com...

This one proved Obama had to "flip-flop" on his promises to not have a Government mandate with Obamacare. The reason he was forced to add the Government mandate was because he had to get "everyone" into the insured ranks, I explained this with detail but you pretended to not have the capacity to understand this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...

32 million still uninsured. You love to claim helping 11 million is all that counts no matter how many lies were told but this means that "MOST" uninsured Americans still not helped by Obamacare. Do you set such low standards in your personal life as you call "success" for Obama?

http://www.politico.com...

This is the link you claimed did not work, had 7 friends check it and it works just fine, it is a story from Politico with the headline : IRS could face blame for Obamacare"s unexpected tax bite

Maybe you are lazy or need to get your computer fixed?

http://thehill.com...

So I offer a wide selection of information and content with many respected news and fact checking sites and you offer only Obamacare official sites, an Obama speech, and 2 Liberal owned cheer leading sites, lol........... I did research, you just copy/pasted numbers directly from Obama.

I thank my opponent for making it plain exactly the true difference between those with an open mind and those blinded by party and Obama loyalty like him. He simply can't allow himself to address the broken promises. Independent thought is simply not even a consideration in my opponent's world.

Yes, there were a lot of promises, and none of them were kept. This is classic Government "bait-and-switch" where they make us think they are passing one thing and instead they pass something completely different.

As a final nail to my opponent's empty claim of "savings" I will add a few more links that crush that idea completely.

http://www.nytimes.com...

So existing plans will increase as much as 20% and people are advised to "shop around" and look for new plans that may be cheaper but again this means changing doctors again, a promise Obama made to all Americans they would not have to do.

http://www.cbsnews.com...

"Regardless of where you get your health insurance, one thing is for sure: Your premiums for 2015 and the next several years are set to rise significantly."

http://www.cnbc.com...#.

"Total premiums for covering a family through an employer-based plan rose 73 percent from 2003 through 2013, while workers' personal share of those premium costs leaped 93 percent during the same time frame, the Commonwealth Fund report said. At the same time, median family income grew just a measly 16 percent."

I will leave the details there, my points of failed promises are irrefutable, and my opponent has all but said that failed promises do not matter. I do not agree, I feel that the American people deserve politicians who will not openly lie to us from both sides of the political spectrum. We also deserve legislation that actually does what they promise it will do. 11 million people shifted to Government programs do not make up for 32 million people still having no coverage.

11 million people getting help does not negate the fact that the other 300 million Americans got screwed over by the lies.

And for a final outrage of thinking Americans, how much have we spent to help 11 million and hurt 300 million Americans? Well Obama set up "advertising" budgets of at least $684,000,000 per year to promote Obamacare. That $640,000,000 could pay the 11 million people that have been helped to get them insurance on the open market and put a huge part of it back into our pockets, lol.
Debate Round No. 4
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Times 2 years ago
Times
I don't think anything, I see the fact you could not even let yourself admit there were several broken promises with Obamacare. That one fact defines you perfectly.

You only offering official Government sites or Obama speeches to support your "debate" simply reinforces the point made.

I hope you one day learn that this level of blind devotion you have is not serving you or america very well. I also hope that some of those on your side can learn to hold your side accountable when they lie, so far that is simply not possible with you guys.
Posted by StalinIncarnate 2 years ago
StalinIncarnate
You think I'm happy go lucky, believe what I hear, Fellow Sheep guided by the "Shepherds"? I like to think I'm more then just biased, whether you believe so or not. You think I spend all my time on "Obama Sites" and Whatnot? I'm a staunch viewer of the Bill Maher Show, The former Colbert report, and ABC when I need to focus on current events. Occasionally I watch Fox, but not because I agree. You believe these debates outline my Mindset? You know, I feel like you're just trying to Berate me. I bid you Good day, Sir, and that you enjoy you're stay on this Website.
Posted by Times 2 years ago
Times
I did not belittle your political opinions because in all honesty, you do not have one, you simply believe what you are told to believe. You are what is known as a "yes man", this debate where the only links you offer are approved Government/Obama sources proves that.

Try to go out there and expose yourself to more than what is pre-approved or filtered for your consumption. Stop being so gullible and naive to swallow the official propaganda without questioning it.

My own political leanings are both easier and more complex depending on the topic at hand. I mostly lean Libertarian but believe some very Liberal things should be put into place such as free 4 year degrees for all Americans who can qualify educationally and very low cost advanced degree programs because well educated people pay more taxes and will pay it back easily with a lifetime of higher taxes.

But you know what, free thinking people are complex, we don't fit into perfect little boxes and could never be 100% supportive of either party only on the basis of loyalty. If you are doing wrong then we are free to call you out on it no matter who you are or what party you say you belong to.

I call out Obama on the ACA because he lied, period. You can't let yourself admit it but that is fact. I am free to call out Obama on his lies because I want more from my leaders than to intentionally lie to me just to pass something they know there is no other way to pass it.
Posted by StalinIncarnate 2 years ago
StalinIncarnate
I would ask you justify your political opinion before belittling mine.
Posted by Times 2 years ago
Times
Not work? You did not provide any links other than the 3 official Obama provided links.

There were no other links offered by you other than official Government ones and an Obama speech.

You are making your affiliations public so yes you are asking for it when you put them on stage for a debate and then intentionally ignore hard facts (like the many promises Obama broke) because they do not make your leader look good.

Yes, you are why they lie, more accurately you are why they "get away" with such massive and flagrant lies. You never hold them accountable so why not lie?

I hold all politicians on both sides accountable because otherwise that means I have no integrity.

The big problem with the Left is they actually start believing the lies, like how all people on the left truly believe Bush made up lies about WMD's in Iraq. They simply do not let themselves see the truth:

****""Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." ~ Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

Democrats were screaming WMD's in Iraq long before Bush took office and all inspectors were kicked out of Iraq before Bush took office so all of the intel we had was based on what Clinton collected and the Clinton Intelligence community that had all Democrat leaders agreeing that Iraq had WMD's.

But Bush lied............ right?

Bush was simply not that smart, he was repeating what Democrats were saying, if anyone was fooled it was Bush who was fooled by the Democrats.
Posted by StalinIncarnate 2 years ago
StalinIncarnate
Did the links not work? That's the only explanation, I included multiple sources. That actually dissappoints me, sorry about that.

I didn't ignore your sources, I made that clear. I believe disfavoured is the correct term, because its a debate.

Hard Left? I appreciate your analysis, although I don't recall asking for it.

I'm why Politicians Lie? Because I have a Political Affiliation, or because you perceive me as something else?
Posted by Times 2 years ago
Times
You need to go check your post again, the entire stage 2 that I was replying to has 2 links directly to Official Obamacare websites and a televised speech of Obama. That was the entire limit of your research, official Obama sites and Obama words.

I responded with a wide array of respected and independent sites all refuting your claims of savings and you ignored all of them.

I am sorry you go through life wearing blinders, I know it is harder for hard left leaning people like you to hold your leaders accountable but as long as you keep making excuses for their bad behaviors you will never get anything other than liars telling you what to say to make them look good at the expense of the rest of America.

Yes, some politicians lie, but the degree of lies is also a consideration to thinking people. You hide behind an idea that because someone else may have made some form of lie, that any lie told by Obama is excusable,

You are why they lie, they can get away with it because you put loyalty to them over morals and accountability.
Posted by StalinIncarnate 2 years ago
StalinIncarnate
Actually, I listed Websites from a larger spectrum then your perceived "blinders". I listed sources from NBC, the Henry J Kaiser foundation, The Washington Post, and TheHill. Are you suggesting these websites are all "official Obama Websites"?

I looked at all links, I didn't ignore or skip any.

Politicians Lie, and Apples grow on trees. They need to make promises, to gain public support. Sometimes these promises are not kept, or broke. I like to think I'm informed, and to my knowledge, Obama is the Better choice. Not the best, but the better.

You're disappointed by our Leaders? Go run for Office.
Posted by Times 2 years ago
Times
I am very disappointing in your need to turn to personal attacks, and you refusing to even look at any of the many links I offered. You are limiting your opinions to those offered only by the official Obama websites and I feel you are hurting your understanding of the bigger picture by wearing those blinders.

We should hold our politicians accountable for their open lies, not be making excuses for them just because you like one side or the other.

You may as well have just said in your debate that you win because Obama says so, lol.
Posted by Times 2 years ago
Times
It let me log in today, reply made.
No votes have been placed for this debate.