The Instigator
slayer54321
Pro (for)
Losing
19 Points
The Contender
beem0r
Con (against)
Winning
23 Points

The Pokémon Diamond and Pearl/Battle Dimension anime series is less entertaining than the video game

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/2/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,350 times Debate No: 4309
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (10)

 

slayer54321

Pro

The topic pretty much states my position in this debate. I will begin by stating multiple points in favor of my opinion and challenge my opponent (whoever that is =�) to render my points obsolete.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1.There is a (bad) pun in almost all of the episode titles for the anime series. For example, would you consider "Once in a Mawile" and "Luxray Vision" to be entertaining? I personally do not think bad puns are entertaining.

2.The main character(s), Dawn/Ash, started their journey at age 10. Children, even fictional, should not be allowed to leave on a year long (or more, in pokemon's case) trip. I think of this idea as a bad one, and bad ideas are generally not entertaining.

Proof that Ash is 10:
http://www.pokezam.com...

3.The team's cook, Brock, seems to get food out of nowhere. That, to me, is stupid. Stupid is definently not entertaining.

Vote Pro :D
beem0r

Con

First, I'll rebut my opponent's points:

1. Having a bad pun in the title does not make an episode less entertaining. For example, if "Pokemon Diamond" were renamed to "Pokemon Diamond: A rather hard game", it would not make the game any less enjoyable.

What a person enjoys about an episode of Pokemon is the plot, the character development, the action, etc. No one watches the show simply for the titles, and if they do, more power to em. Regardless, the name of an episode does not make the show unentertaining.

2. My opponent's argument here is that since 'bad behavior' is shown in the anime [10 year olds leaving home on an adventure], it must be unentertaining. This, too, is a complete non sequitur. That is to say, the entertainment level of a show is not dictated by whether or not the actions of characters are universally acceptable. In fact, many movies thrive on actions that are considered bad. For example, the Italian Job. It's about robberies, betrayal, etc, and it's definitely entertaining... even though robbery and betrayal are things that are reprehensible.

3. My opponent's next argument is that one specific thing in the anime doesn't make sense, and therefore the show is not entertaining. Specifically, Brock apparently 'gets food out of nowhere.' First, I'd like everyone to note that my opponent offers no source for this info. Next, I'd like to point out that one thing that does not make sense does not affect the show's entertainment level. People don't watch the show to see Brock not pull food out of nowhere, they watch it to see the plot unfold, to see the character development, to see the action.

And now, onto my case.

Let's look at a few different meaningful criteria, and see how the game and the show stack up on each.

1. Variety

The opposite of this is repetitiveness.

The show has a good amount of variety. Each episode is made as its own thing, without reusing stuff from other episodes.

The game has a LOT of repetitiveness. Throughout the game, the player will have to grind for hours. This involves continually fighting other Pokemon to raise the levels and stats of your own Pokemon. This is horrendously repetitive, and not entertaining at all. The battle system isn't really fun at all - throughout the game you'll simply be telling your Pokemon to do an attack, see it wiggle a little bit, and then see the damage get done. It's not exciting.

2. Dialog/Character Development
Character development is a necessary component for shows and RPGs. However, you'll see that Pokemon Diamond/Pearl are completely lacking in this department. This is mostly due to the horrible dialog system.

Dialog in the game is completely one-sided. The player character says NOTHING, other characters simply tell you stuff when you "talk" to them. For instance, there might be a guy somewhere who likes Mudkips. Talking to this guy, rather than engaging in an actual conversation, just brings out a canned phrase from him. He'll say, for instance, "So I herd u liek mudkipz."

He won't say anything else, no matter how many times you 'talk' to him, and you can't ever actually TALK to him.

In fact, this form of dialog is so unengaging that, as Gamespot says in their review, "You'll find yourself ignoring the dialog so often that sometimes you'll miss where you're supposed to go next."

So what's that leave the game with? The dialog sucks, there's no character development, so it's basically just battles. Since the battle system is so fixed [it isn't very dynamic], battles become EXTREMELY repetitive after a while.

Now, consider that the show has real characters, with real personalities, constantly interacting with each other. The characters gain depth, the dialog is much more engaging, and it's simply much more entertaining for anyone who enjoys a story.

3. Action
The action of the game is mainly in the battles. It combines music with very lame battle animations.

Let's compare this with the battles of the anime. In the anime, each battle is drawn individually, without having to steal 99.9% of elements from other battles. This leads to more variety. Also, the battles are not simply some 2D sprites wiggling, it's actual 3Desque drawings atacking each other in a completely dynamic way. Any music can come with this, and to add to the entertainment, trainers actually have voices in the anime.

So I believe I've given a good enough case for R1. Let's see.
Debate Round No. 1
slayer54321

Pro

Well beem, looks like all my points are rendered obsolete :(
But I can do the same to your points, here we go.
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First, my opponent brings up the topic of variety. In this topic, he states,

"The show has a good amount of variety. Each episode is made as its own thing, without reusing stuff from other episodes."

Actually, the show reuses entire concepts from entire series, even. For example, take Team Rocket (by that i mean the trio of Jessie, James, and Meowth). They appear in almost every episode of every series, always with a theme song that definently gets stale after a while, though they may change it around a bit. Their goal is always to capture Ash's Pikachu, and they always create some high tech machine or gadget that never gets the job done. Now THAT is repetitive. Also, the major concept in almost every series is for Ash to beat the Elite Four/become a "pokemon master". In these series, Ash never actually wins the major tournaments (except the Orange Island League), even if it is the last episode in the series. You can see proof of this in my link that was provided in round one.
-------------------------------------------

My opponent goes on to say,

"The game has a LOT of repetitiveness. Throughout the game, the player will have to grind for hours. This involves continually fighting other Pokemon to raise the levels and stats of your own Pokemon. This is horrendously repetitive, and not entertaining at all. The battle system isn't really fun at all - throughout the game you'll simply be telling your Pokemon to do an attack, see it wiggle a little bit, and then see the damage get done."

The games were more designed for children. I beleive this "grinding and wiggling" is enough for them, and here's why. A specific pokemon in the game can turn into the child's dream pet, and, if you think about it, behaves a lot like a pet like "wiggle", and attack enemies that represent a threat to the child. With this "dream pet", children have something else to strive towards in the game, which entertains them, even if it is repetitive. Battling would be considered a way to tame this certain pet.
------------------------------

Next, may opponent says,

"Dialog in the game is completely one-sided. The player character says NOTHING, other characters simply tell you stuff when you "talk" to them. For instance, there might be a guy somewhere who likes Mudkips. Talking to this guy, rather than engaging in an actual conversation, just brings out a canned phrase from him. He'll say, for instance, "So I herd u liek mudkipz."
He won't say anything else, no matter how many times you 'talk' to him, and you can't ever actually TALK to him."

Actually, in Diamond and Pearl, it's not that important that you need to have to talk to the same person multiple time in the game because there is a way you can talk with real people. With WiFi Connection, you can actually talk to people over the internet and not to a computer. This provides a great sorce of entertainment, since you can talk to people you may know and are hardly limited to what you can say. Most people are able to use this function, because most people using the DS generally have a decent internet connection. This means you can get help with the game online also and not just advance in the game by having to talk to a random computer.
---------------------------------------------------

My opponent also brings up the topic of action. When doing this, he says,

"The action of the game is mainly in the battles. It combines music with very lame battle animations.In the anime, each battle is drawn individually, without having to steal 99.9% of elements from other battles. This leads to more variety. Also, the battles are not simply some 2D sprites wiggling, it's actual 3Desque drawings atacking each other in a completely dynamic way. Any music can come with this."

It's true that the action of the game is mainly in the battles, but battles are not normally thought of by the players as "lame battle animations", they think of them as ways to get towards what they need to do, which is either capture all the pokemon or defeat the Elite Four. The animations may be worse than the show, but when watching the show you are only watching, and not playing with/as the characters, which makes the game more entertaining. The players tend to ignore these "lame animations" because they are working towards one of the goals mentioned above by battling.

In the anime however, though the battles may be better quality, they mostly include the same strategies from the last battle unless the character is told multiple times to make a change of strategies. For example, Ash uses the same stubborn tactics as always. First, (assuming the battle is Pikachu vs Onix"), Ash commands Pikacu to use an Electric move. When he sees that doesn't work, he uses a normal move like quick attack, or slam, whoch also are not very effective against a ground type. After all of this, he finally makes an observation to combine attacks and use something like quick attack into iron tail, weakening onix drastically.

Vote Pro :D
beem0r

Con

I. The show's variety

The existence of the same characters and plot devices does not constitute a lack of variety, it simply represents a presence of continuity. How lame would it be if every episode used different plot devices? For instance, what if Jesse and James were only in a few episodes, and there was some other plot device plotting Ash's demise in the other episodes? The consistent presence of the Team Rocket Trio [Jesse, James, Meowth] only served to give the series a certain amount of character. It does not constitute a lack of variety, since the characters are not doing THE SAME EXACT THING every episode.

My opponent then goes to show that since most of series have the same goal [Ash beating the Final Four], that constitutes a lack of variety. In the show House, the goal is always to cure the patient. In the Game, the goal is the exact same thing in every one. This itself does not represent a lack of variety. It would make no sense to have the goal be something completely different each time. Once again, this is continuity, not a lack of variety. Variety exists in the fact that each of the battles and each of the episodes is its own distinct work. They don't just reuse footage. Sure, the same types of things might happen most episodes, but they happen in different ways.

Regardless, it's not hard to tell that the show has more variety than the videogame. The videogame is constant battles, wherein the player will often find himself fighting the same battle 5 or 6 times in a row [zubats in a cave, for example], using the same attacks with the same low quality animations. There is no modern criteria under which the pokemon animations would not be considered low quality. And seeing the same low quality animation 500 times in a game... well that's repetitive.

II. Lack of variety in the games

Some of what I said above, and...
Wiggling sprites may be enough for children, by why should we be content with 'enough?' And why are we judging this from the perspective of children? I am 19 years old, and my opponent is 118 years old [yes, 118]. We hardly can be considered children. And we're the ones arguing about whether it's entertaining or not. It may be entertaining ENOUGH for a 9 year old, but that has no bearing on whether me, my opponenet, or the audience should see it as entertaining, let alone MORE entertaining than the show.

III. Dialog in the game

Oh, come now. Talking with people over Wi-Fi hardly constitutes dialog. There is no character development in talking to people over Wi-Fi. The dialog you have with other players will likely not be relevant to the in-game events, either. This point is about as relevant as me saying you can talk with a friend over the phone while watching the show. That is to say, it has nothing to do with the actual show.

Needless to say, though, the dialog, the character development, the plot... they are much better in the show than in the game. The characters actually talk to each other [with voices, too], the characters actually develop some kind of depth [you end up actually caring what happens to character X, Y, or Z], and the plot is much more robust.

IV. Dialog in the show

My opponent accepts that the dialog in the show is good, since he failed to respond to my claims about it.

V. Action in the game

It's true that the battles represent an inching forth toward some goal, however, that does not change the fact that the action in the battles sucks. As far as the ACTION of the battles is concerned, it's LITERALLY, sprites wiggling back and forth and making some bars get shorter. It's very bad as far as action is considered. Sure, a person might be inching toward a goal by battling, but the same can be said of the chartacters in the show.

VI. Action in the show

As my opponent admits, the show has much better battle animations. It actually LOOKS like two pokemon are battling... imagine that! As far as the actual action is concerned, the show destroys the game. However, my opponent brings up an unrelated point here: characters often use the same tactics in the battles. However, characters use the same tactics over and over even MORESO in the game. If there's a pokemon of type X out, you bring out something with a type Y move that'll kill it in one or two hits. The tactics are even MORE repetitive in the game, so that cannot be a reason to vote against the show.

VII. Game vs. Show in general

My opponent makes the point that the game is more entertaining simply because it is a game. However, this is hugely a matter of personal preference. Even gamers today are shifting towards more casual gaming, where the story is emphasized and the actual game-playing is not. Especially RPG players, and Pokemon is certainly an RPG. Some people prefer to watch a plot unfold, some people prefer to interact with a story. My opponent claims that "when watching the show you are only watching, and not playing with/as the characters, which makes the game more entertaining." However, this is a matter of personal preference. Even so, even a game enthusiast like myself has to say that playing a bad game is worse than watching an alright show, and I've certainly shown that as far as games and shows are concerned, the Pokemon show is much better than the Pokemon game.

I look forward to my opponent's closing argument.
Debate Round No. 2
slayer54321

Pro

Well, this is gonna be tough.
Wow lol, you actualy thought i was 118? WOW
Back on topic...................................

I will now bring up what i call a "secret weapon" for my final argument, and this weapon is called Pokemon Mystery Dungeon:Explorers of Darkness/Time, which will be reffered to (by me) as Mystery Dungeon 2.
-------------------------------------------------

My opponent states this about the game's variety

"The videogame is constant battles, wherein the player will often find himself fighting the same battle 5 or 6 times in a row [zubats in a cave, for example], using the same attacks with the same low quality animations. There is no modern criteria under which the pokemon animations would not be considered low quality. And seeing the same low quality animation 500 times in a game... well that's repetitive."

In Mystery Dungeon 2, there is very little repetitiveness. For example, a person is most likely not going to explore the same dungeon over and over again, because of the very long and elaborate storyline of Mystery Dungeon 2. Another reason the person would not explore the same dugeon over and over again is that there are multiple dungeons to choose from, some of which are very challenging and will possibly entertain the player for a long time. In these dungeons, you will not have to fight the same battle 5 or 6 times in a row because the enemy pokemon actually move (it must be amazing to you beem0r) on the floors of the dungeon. And these animations of battles are higher quality to Diamond and Pearl or any other games like that. Lastly, you can go to a "Link Shop" to link moves together, and delink them, giving the game yet more variety.

Link to prove the multiple dungeons: http://serebii.net...

Link to prove the higher quality (there is a screenshot under maze cave):
http://serebii.net...

Next my opponent states:

"Needless to say, though, the dialog, the character development, the plot... they are much better in the show than in the game. The characters actually talk to each other [with voices, too], the characters actually develop some kind of depth [you end up actually caring what happens to character X, Y, or Z], and the plot is much more robust."

There are multiple characters in Mystery Dungeon 2, which do develop depth, and the storyline is very elaborate. For example, throughout the game your partner develops into a different character from the start. At the start your partner is a shy, cowardly, and helpful pokemon. As the story progresses your partner overcomes his/her fears little by little with you by his/her side all the time. By the end of the game your partner becomes a strong, respectable, and brave pokemon. Now you may be wondering how this relates to the dialog. Throughout the story (which i will describe by means of a comment if you want me to), you cheer your partner up when he/she is down and encourage him/her by saying encouraging things (dialog). After this happens, your partner takes charge and acts brave for a short period of time, and the process is repeated until your partner fully develops. Your partner actually responds back to you in different ways each time. For example, he/she says "You're right, (insert your name here), we can't give up now!".

Lastly, I will adress my opponent's argument about action in the game. He says

"It's true that the battles represent an inching forth toward some goal, however, that does not change the fact that the action in the battles sucks. As far as the ACTION of the battles is concerned, it's LITERALLY, sprites wiggling back and forth and making some bars get shorter. It's very bad as far as action is considered. Sure, a person might be inching toward a goal by battling, but the same can be said of the chartacters in the show."

There are many goals to choose from in Mystery Dungeon 2. I will name some
1. Recruiting all pokemon
2. Finishing the story and the post-story
3. Training all pokemon on your team to the highest level
4. Geetting all the items
5. Making several specialized teams to deal with certain dungeons
6. Save people over Wi-fi with different teams
...and the list goes on.

Now to adress the part about sprites. I'm not so sure that the animations in Mystery Dungeon 2 are merely sprites, But you'll have to clarify on that. As was explained above, the "Link Shop" making it a combination of "wiggling". But it's actually not wiggling, I would prove it to you if i could find a screenshot of a random attack being used. There is actually contact in Mystery Dungeon 2 in attacks.

Please vote for pro
beem0r, you have the floor.
beem0r

Con

Gwahahah.

It seems my opponent thinks he's unleashed a formidable weapon upon me.

However, ladies and gentlemen, you'll find that he's quite mistaken. Take a leisurely gander at the resolution: "The Pok�mon Diamond and Pearl/Battle Dimension anime series is less entertaining than the video game"

It's obvious, by the wording of the resolution, that "the video game" refers to Pok�mon Diamond/Pearl for NDS. However, my opponent has gone on to make arguments based solely on a completely different game: Pok�mon Mystery Dungeon 2.

Since my opponent has been unable to show that the Pok�mon Diamond/Pearl video game is more entertaining than the Pok�mon Diamond and Pearl anime series, he has failed to meet his burden of proof. I have consistently argued why the Pok�mon shows [all of them, including D/P] are superior in entertainment value to the traditional Pok�mon games [which includes D/P]. Thus, I have argued that the D/P anime [and D/P: Battle Dimension] is superior to the D/P game, which is what the resolution calls for.

I do not have to show that the D/P anime is superior to the Mystery Dungeon 2 game, since that is not my position based on the resolution.

Thus, since my opponent did not rebut my R2 arguments [and instead made new, nonresolutional arguments in R3], he conceded those points. And by those points, I have negated the resolution. Thus, great justice demands that you vote CON.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by sonofzapp 8 years ago
sonofzapp
pokemon suck period, but some o da games are ok
Posted by slayer54321 8 years ago
slayer54321
I guess its a tie for now beem.
Posted by bizzer10 8 years ago
bizzer10
Pokemon Dimond: a rather hard game

thats actually a pretty good pun haha
Posted by aquajet16 8 years ago
aquajet16
Nice debate wohohoho. This is really giving me a run for my money...
Posted by gahbage 8 years ago
gahbage
If you don't clear something up that needs to be cleared up, then your opponent will do it for you.
Posted by slayer54321 8 years ago
slayer54321
Not the way I argued it

maybe i shoulda cleared that up during the first round
Posted by gahbage 8 years ago
gahbage
If you talk about the Diamond/Pearl series and refer to it as "the game" then it means the Diamond/Pearl games.
Posted by slayer54321 8 years ago
slayer54321
Pokemon Mystery dungeon still classifies as a pokemon video game
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
I cannot help but say that you've put yourself at a grave disadvantage just now, PRO. I would have utilized my 3 days to think about it if I were you. Anyway, good debate.
Posted by beem0r 8 years ago
beem0r
Whew, I'm not too late, thought I'd forfeited ;]

2 and a half hours left, will get a response up before then.
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Logical-Master
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