The Instigator
Pro (for)
6 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
0 Points

The Pokemon TV Show Should follow the Exploits of Red, not Ash.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,877 times Debate No: 10437
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (1)




Thanks for accepting the open challenge whoever you are.

I will attempt to affirm the resolution that the Pok�mon anime should have followed the exploits of the character Red, and not those of Ash Ketchum.

For those of you that are unfamiliar with the show here is a synopsis:

Ash Ketchum is a boy who on his tenth birthday decided to be a Pok�mon Trainer, one who raises and battles Pok�mon. He began with a Pikachu and has gained many more since the show's beginning. He also has adventures with a myriad of other Pok�mon Trainers. He does a lot of things that are impressive within the context of the show but there is little plot and he never accomplishes the goal set for him in the original American theme. It is a fairly reaction based show with little important interconnection between episodes. If one were to begin watching now you would understand the show only a few episodes later. The series has ran over 600 episodes since its conception.

Contention 1:
Red relies on himself alone to capture Pok�mon. [1]

Unlike Ash, Red obtained a majority of his Pok�mon through their capture or trade. Only a few exceptions to this rule exist and they are Bulbasaur and Areodactyl. Bulbasaur was given to him by Professor Oak as a starter, it is customary for a Pok�mon Trainer in this series to receive a starter, and Aerodactyl was resurrected using an Old Amber that was given to him.

On the other hand Ash received many of his Pok�mon by way of charity or friendship. Here are the numerous examples in the order that they are listed on the Bulbapedia article:
*Pikachu - given to him as a starter [2]
*Turtwig - It chose to travel with him after trying to defend wild Pok�mon [3]
*Chimchar - Chose to join Ash willingly after its trainer released it [4]
*Bulbasaur - Is asked to join Ash by its original owner [5]
*Heracross - It joins him after he helps with one of its disputes [6]
*Chikorita - Chooses to join Ash over Team Rocket [7]
*Phanpy - Hatched from an egg given to him. [1]
*Torkoal - After Ash saved it, it chose to join him [8]
*Squirtle - It first overpowers Ash and Team, but they are double crossed and Ash helps him save his friends and town [9]
*Charmander - It is abandoned and Ash nurses it back to health, so it decided to join him [10]
*Gligar - After Ash helps it and its friends it lets Ash capture it [11]
*Lapras - Ash gains its trust and it joined him willingly [12]

So of the 30 Pok�mon Ash has called his own 10 of them just decided to follow him and an additional 2 were obtained in similar ways to Red's non captured ones. It is also of worth to note that many of his legitimate catches befriended him before the formality of a battle, if this had not occurred I doubt that he would have this many Pok�mon.

Contention 2:
The concept of catching and training Pok�mon for use in battle is the premise of the entire video game series and is referenced as being the objective of the anime in the original opening theme song.

"I wanna be the very best / Like no one ever was / To catch them is my real test / To train them is my cause" [13]
Is the opening stanza of the anime and for a little while the anime held to this idea, but quickly is discarded once Pok�mon start joining Ash because they like him. Ash relies heavily on being nice to them first and owning them later which is the reverse of how it should work. Ash has also only three times won in a competition where his team's skill in battle was tested. And none of those were very major events. Also in the first season Ash is given at least 3 of his 8 Indigo League gym badges.

Red uses his skill as a trainer to capture Pok�mon and throughout the course of training them they become friends. He also earns all of his badges using his skills as a trainer and battler. He deliberately trains his Pok�mon, unlike Ash who's Pok�mon do not gain strength at a regular rate and tend to not be fully evolved, to be better and eventually all of his Pok�mon that he regularly uses and can evolve by gaining experience do so. All of this training eventually leads to Red becoming the 9th Pok�mon League Champion which is the title you aspire to in the original 2 games. He becomes so strong that he is offered positions as a Gym Leader and is sought after to be a mentor to other trainers.

Contention 3:
Red actually accomplishes things such as stopping evil and saving the world in the serial medium that he appears in.

Here are examples:
*Stopping Lt. Surge from stealing Pok�mon
*Stops Team Rocket's Moltres before it starts killing people
*Stops Koga from killing Blue by battling an Articuno
*Stops the combined form of Moltres, Zapdos, and Articuno from wreaking destruction upon a town
*Captures Mewtwo
*Becomes Pok�mon League Champion
*Defeats a member of the Elite Four
*Sacrifices himself to save Deoxys
These are all examples of events that required considerable skill to achieve and have happened over the course of 352 manga chapters.

Ash's accomplishments in the show, while also numerous, are not nearly as impressive. He has won many local contests and thwarted the plans of minor Team Rocket players many times, but the only thing of note that he has done was become the champion of the Orange League which involved winning one battle. All of this was accomplished in 625 television episodes.

(My opponent may argue that Ash did more in the movies, I am aware of that but this debate is not about the movies, just the anime show.)

Contention 4:
Red's story appeals to a broader audience.

The television show is almost universally positive and individuals other than Pok�mon are rarely put into situation where they could even get seriously injured and the actual injury happens even less. It is basically a show that appeals specifically to children and those of similar mindsets.

Red's story on the other hand is wrought with danger. Red himself almost drowns 2 times, he is cryogenically frozen by those who don't like his refusal to help them wipe out humanity. He is put into many situations where he is forced to act or people will die. He is even involved in situations where something's death is required for safety. These are the elements of stories that draw in a wide variety of audiences because it has become more than a medium for entertainment purposes only. It teaches lessons and makes you think about issues that you might not have thought of before unlike the show's lessons which are primarily there for the purpose of teaching children.

I look forward to my opponent's responses.

For some reason DDO won't do the links right, just click on the link that corresponds to the name next to it on the page it opens. It's a bit down in the page.



As you say yes Red did have to earn his Pok�mon but you have to realize is that to show a series of events you have to connect to the character. Ash, from the show and the manga series, was 14 years old, was in school, took a test to start becoming a trainer and then he caught Pikachu himself. Red was a character made by Nintendo to allow you to have a choice on who you want to be. In the later games, Silver for example, he was the last challenge you had to face. Why would someone want to create a show on how a random child becoming something great and then leave him in a cave to wait a challenger?
Debate Round No. 1


I thank my opponent for accepting the debate.


"Ash, from the show and the manga series, was 14 years old, was in school, took a test to start becoming a trainer and then he caught Pikachu himself."

[Ash did not catch Pikachu in the TV show, Ash was gives Pikachu as a starter. This information is found in my above source [2].]
"Red was a character made by Nintendo to allow you to have a choice on who you want to be. In the later games, Silver for example, he was the last challenge you had to face. Why would someone want to create a show on how a random child becoming something great and then leave him in a cave to wait a challenger?"

[It is obvious from this statement that my opponent did not check all of my sources. With the first statement I believe that my opponent is referring to one of the default options in Pokemon Red Version to name yourself Red. My opponent is also correct in stating that the Red character in Pokemon Silver Version is the same character from the manga Pokemon Adventures. My opponent incorrectly states that Red is simply some random character that got good at Pokemon and sits in a cave and the hypothetical show's story would follow that of the manga Pokemon Adventires.]
My opponent accepts my first contention which is evidence in my favor and failed to refute the other two contentions. I ask my opponent to read the information found in above source [1]. This source explains that Red is not just some random trainer but has a whole story of his own.


tchapman681 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2


Since my opponent has forfeited the round I extend all of my above Arguments.


tchapman681 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Yes, please. Hang off for a couple of days, though. I've got to read the manga first :)
Posted by Korashk 6 years ago
I'll probably re-post it if this this person forfeits. Want me to just challenge you?
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Ah, damn. I was gonna take it, but it looks like it'll turn out disappointing now.
Posted by Korashk 6 years ago
Due to the severe difference in persona of similar characters the two stories are mutually exclusive, so it wouldn't really matter. If it chose to switch to Red's story now then they would have to start at the beginning of it anyway.
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis you mean the TV show should HAVE followed the exploits of Red instead of Ash, or that the TV show should follow the exploits of Red in the future?
Posted by wonderwoman 6 years ago
I <3 this topic :) but I will probably lose if taken it because ya, Ash is an idiot. Let me get my pokedex out before I catch the damn thing
Posted by headphonegut 6 years ago
I would accept, but I know nothing of pokemon
Posted by mongoose 6 years ago
I might accept this later.
Posted by Rezzealaux 6 years ago
You, sir, are full of win.
Posted by Alex 6 years ago
I only like the original 150 :)
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Korashk 6 years ago
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Total points awarded:60