The Instigator
Korashk
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Kinesis
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

The Pokemon TV Show should Follow the Exploits of Red, not Ash

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Kinesis
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/22/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 9,932 times Debate No: 10542
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (4)

 

Korashk

Pro

I will attempt to affirm the resolution that the Pok�mon anime should have followed the exploits of the character Red, and not those of Ash Ketchum.

For those of you that are unfamiliar with the show here is a synopsis:

Ash Ketchum is a boy who on his tenth birthday decided to be a Pok�mon Trainer, one who raises and battles Pok�mon. He began with a Pikachu and has gained many more since the show's beginning. He also has adventures with a myriad of other Pok�mon Trainers. He does a lot of things that are impressive within the context of the show but there is little plot and he never accomplishes the goal set for him in the original American theme. It is a fairly reaction based show with little important interconnection between episodes. If one were to begin watching now you would understand the show only a few episodes later. The series has ran over 600 episodes since its conception.

Contention 1:
Red relies on himself alone to capture Pok�mon. [1]

Unlike Ash, Red obtained a majority of his Pok�mon through their capture or trade. Only a few exceptions to this rule exist and they are Bulbasaur and Areodactyl. Bulbasaur was given to him by Professor Oak as a starter, it is customary for a Pok�mon Trainer in this series to receive a starter, and Aerodactyl was resurrected using an Old Amber that was given to him.

On the other hand Ash received many of his Pok�mon by way of charity or friendship. Here are the numerous examples in the order that they are listed on the Bulbapedia article:
*Pikachu - given to him as a starter [2]
*Turtwig - It chose to travel with him after trying to defend wild Pok�mon [3]
*Chimchar - Chose to join Ash willingly after its trainer released it [4]
*Bulbasaur - Is asked to join Ash by its original owner [5]
*Heracross - It joins him after he helps with one of its disputes [6]
*Chikorita - Chooses to join Ash over Team Rocket [7]
*Phanpy - Hatched from an egg given to him. [1]
*Torkoal - After Ash saved it, it chose to join him [8]
*Squirtle - It first overpowers Ash and Team, but they are double crossed and Ash helps him save his friends and town [9]
*Charmander - It is abandoned and Ash nurses it back to health, so it decided to join him [10]
*Gligar - After Ash helps it and its friends it lets Ash capture it [11]
*Lapras - Ash gains its trust and it joined him willingly [12]

So of the 30 Pok�mon Ash has called his own 10 of them just decided to follow him and an additional 2 were obtained in similar ways to Red's non captured ones. It is also of worth to note that many of his legitimate catches befriended him before the formality of a battle, if this had not occurred I doubt that he would have this many Pok�mon.

Contention 2:
The concept of catching and training Pok�mon for use in battle is the premise of the entire video game series and is referenced as being the objective of the anime in the original opening theme song.

"I wanna be the very best / Like no one ever was / To catch them is my real test / To train them is my cause" [13]
Is the opening stanza of the anime and for a little while the anime held to this idea, but quickly is discarded once Pok�mon start joining Ash because they like him. Ash relies heavily on being nice to them first and owning them later which is the reverse of how it should work. Ash has also only three times won in a competition where his team's skill in battle was tested. And none of those were very major events. Also in the first season Ash is given at least 3 of his 8 Indigo League gym badges.

Red uses his skill as a trainer to capture Pok�mon and throughout the course of training them they become friends. He also earns all of his badges using his skills as a trainer and battler. He deliberately trains his Pok�mon, unlike Ash who's Pok�mon do not gain strength at a regular rate and tend to not be fully evolved, to be better and eventually all of his Pok�mon that he regularly uses and can evolve by gaining experience do so. All of this training eventually leads to Red becoming the 9th Pok�mon League Champion which is the title you aspire to in the original 2 games. He becomes so strong that he is offered positions as a Gym Leader and is sought after to be a mentor to other trainers.

Contention 3:
Red actually accomplishes things such as stopping evil and saving the world in the serial medium that he appears in.

Here are examples:
*Stopping Lt. Surge from stealing Pok�mon
*Stops Team Rocket's Moltres before it starts killing people
*Stops Koga from killing Blue by battling an Articuno
*Stops the combined form of Moltres, Zapdos, and Articuno from wreaking destruction upon a town
*Captures Mewtwo
*Becomes Pok�mon League Champion
*Defeats a member of the Elite Four
*Sacrifices himself to save Deoxys
These are all examples of events that required considerable skill to achieve and have happened over the course of 352 manga chapters.

Ash's accomplishments in the show, while also numerous, are not nearly as impressive. He has won many local contests and thwarted the plans of minor Team Rocket players many times, but the only thing of note that he has done was become the champion of the Orange League which involved winning one battle. All of this was accomplished in 625 television episodes.

(My opponent may argue that Ash did more in the movies, I am aware of that but this debate is not about the movies, just the anime show.)

Contention 4:
Red's story appeals to a broader audience.

The television show is almost universally positive and individuals other than Pok�mon are rarely put into situation where they could even get seriously injured and the actual injury happens even less. It is basically a show that appeals specifically to children and those of similar mindsets.

Red's story on the other hand is wrought with danger. Red himself almost drowns 2 times, he is cryogenically frozen by those who don't like his refusal to help them wipe out humanity. He is put into many situations where he is forced to act or people will die. He is even involved in situations where something's death is required for safety. These are the elements of stories that draw in a wide variety of audiences because it has become more than a medium for entertainment purposes only. It teaches lessons and makes you think about issues that you might not have thought of before unlike the show's lessons which are primarily there for the purpose of teaching children.

I look forward to my opponent's responses.

For some reason DDO won't do the links right, just click on the link that corresponds to the name next to it on the page it opens. It's a bit down in the page.

Sources:
[1] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
[2] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
[3] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Grotle
[4] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Monferno
[5] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Bulbasaur
[6] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Heracross
[7] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Bayleef
[8] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Torkoal
[9] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Squirtle
[10] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Charizard
[11] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Gliscor
[12] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...'s_Lapras
[13] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Kinesis

Con

Thanks to Korashk for posting this fun and unique topic. I shall present my own observations on the manga, Pokemon Adventures [1], which will encompass my opponent's arguments whilst negating the resolution along the way.

1: Problems with the manga.

Having read a substantial portion of the manga for the purposes of this debate, I must say that I find it rather poor compared to the anime series. In fact, a lot of it reads like bad fan fiction- check out, and this is no joke, Red's battle with decomposing zombie Psyduck [2]. Much of the dialogue is annoyingly corny (no, it isn't Pikachu, it's 'Pika'). Furthermore, the plot line just reads like a story version of the Blue/Red/Yellow original games, leaving no room for storyline expansion- they even find Mewtwo in Cerulean cave, (and defeat him ridiculously easily), visit each of the same towns, defeat each of the same leaders, go on to win at Indigo Plateau...the main characters are called 'Red' 'Green' and 'Blue' which is weirdly unimaginative (perhaps some kind of bad slur on the original games). The pokemon even have HEALTH BARS. (and for some reason, electric attacks apparantly work on ground types-fairly inconsistent considering its rigid adherance to the games otherwise). There are occasional variations, such as some of the Gym Leaders having Team Rocket affiliations, but even these borrow heavily from the games.

Perhaps this kind of dogged tie-in with the original games would attract hardcore fans of the video game, but in would remain just that- a supporting role for the games, no different from the myriad of game and book tie-ins that infest our stores. This is hardly likely to attract the wider audience, and if the original anime had stuck with the games instead of finding it's own feet, there is little doubt it wouldn't be as popular as it is now.

2: The manga is bizarrely violent, and could never gain a foothold in its target market.

Pro has aspirations about Pokemon broadening it's appeal to a larger market, but lets face it- the only substantial audience Pokemon is likely to ever get is the pre-teens market, even if the danger element is more emphasised. I can't imagine an anime about kids with pocket monsters fighting each other for special badges pulling in a 'wide variety of audiences. I just can't. If fact, the more violent overtones of the manga series would, I think, work against it's target market (Pokemon DIE in the manga). There isn't the cutesy fainting sequence when a Pokemon is defeated-sometimes they get sliced in half, or frozen and broken into pieces. This, amazingly enough for a manga based on Pokemon, isn't for children.

But nor, as Pro seems to think, is there a particularly deep message behind the series. It doesn't have any more lessons to teach to children than the anime- in fact, I think the anime has the edge in this regard. In the manga, the protagonist easily defeats everyone, even the most powerful trainers and Pokemon in the world, whilst barely working for it. He's looks about eight. On the other hand, Ash is thrust into a larger world, following his dreams but never managing to get to the top. He fails to win when he takes on Indigo Plateau, and learns a lesson about picking himself back up from defeat. There is an emphasis on friendship and trust, while the manga is just about battling and getting stronger.

I should address Pro's point about the theme song here, too. He seems to think that because the theme song talks about battling, then the series must follow rigidly to it. But apart from being a very weak argument, he conveniently ignores all the other theme songs that Pokemon has- often espousing very different values. Also, he only gives the first few lines of the the song-the rest of it continues to include lyrics about friendship. In fact, the song is about friendship AND battling, which the anime holds to, whereas the manga is just about battling. (A youtube video of the song, as well as others in the series is included).

3: Should Ash's exploits in the movies be excluded?

Pro makes it very clear in his opening round that he is referring to the anime series when he says that it should have followed Red's exploits, and therefore Ash's accomplishments (Which far exceed Red's if allowed) in the movies should be ignored. However, I don't think he's thought this through. It is true that the movies and anime are separate, but it is also true that they are linked. For instance, in the first movie, Mewtwo (who is, seriously, rubbish in the manga) defeats Gary whilst working for Giovanni. This event also occurs in the anime, as both Ash and Gary make references to it, and Ash even meets Mewtwo later in the anime.

More importantly, however, if Red's adventures had been made into the series, and become as popular as the current series (which it wouldn't), would it be any different? No, likely, they would have kept back the legendaries, and deeper plot lines and the greatest accomplishments, and made them into movies, just like in the current series. So Red's accomplishment's in the series would probably be LESS impressive as Ash's, with all his more impressive achievements saved up for the movies.

[1] http://www.onemanga.com...
[2] http://www.onemanga.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Korashk

Pro

I thank Kinesis for accepting this debate and hope that it will be a good one.

Rebuttals:
"1.) Red's battle with decomposing zombie Psyduck [2]. 2.) Much of the dialogue is annoyingly corny (no, it isn't Pikachu, it's 'Pika'). 3.) Furthermore, the plot line just reads like a story version of the Blue/Red/Yellow original games, leaving no room for storyline expansion- 4.) they even find Mewtwo in Cerulean cave, (and defeat him ridiculously easily), 5.) visit each of the same towns, defeat each of the same leaders, go on to win at Indigo Plateau...the main characters are called 'Red' 'Green' and 'Blue' which is weirdly unimaginative (perhaps some kind of bad slur on the original games)..."

[1.) In this portion of the manga Red is in a cemetery that is being controlled by malevolent forces with telekinetic powers. It is hardly a stretch of the imagination that this force would resort to controlling corpses. This occurrence, though a bit odd, is not inappropriate given Red's situation.
2.) Pika is the name of Red's Pikachu, not corny dialogue. All of Red's Pokemon have nicknames.
3.) If all this manga did was tell the storyline of the original games then that's all that it would be. There would be nothing that allows the reader to like the characters as in the game the protagonist does not ever speak and develops few relationships with other characters. It would be very dull to read and a lot shorter.
4.) I would hardly say that Mewtwo is a pushover, he single-handedly incapacitated most of Red's team with one attack. If in the manga they had to defeat Mewtwo instead of just incapacitate it I doubt that Red and his team could have done it.
5.) I ask my opponent why differentiation from source material about basic elements is a good thing. There are many books that were adapted to movie format that are widely considered to be terrible because of too much differentiation. If I use the game as a baseline then Ash's exploits differ a considerable amount more than Red's. The names of characters and places do not make a good story. How the author/writer depicts the in-between moments and important events are what makes a story great.

****

"1.) Pro has aspirations about Pokemon broadening it's appeal to a larger market, but lets face it- the only substantial audience Pokemon is likely to ever get is the pre-teens market...2.) I can't imagine an anime about kids with pocket monsters fighting each other for special badges pulling in a 'wide variety of audiences...3.) If fact, the more violent overtones of the manga series would, I think, work against it's target market (Pokemon DIE in the manga). There isn't the cutesy fainting sequence when a Pokemon is defeated-sometimes they get sliced in half, or frozen and broken into pieces. This, amazingly enough for a manga based on Pokemon, isn't for children."

[1.) This is a Facebook group that has nearly 80 thousand members as of this post, some of them may be prepubescent but many would qualify as being out of Nintendo's target market for Pokemon [1].]
2.) Pokemon already pulls a "wide variety of audiences" as it is the second most successful video game franchise in history [2, 3]. My argument is that it could pull a wider one.
3.) The manga is more violent than the anime; this is a fact. The occurrences of death that are referenced by my opponent are not at all common in the manga, I would go so far as to call them rare. the main point of that contention was to increase the size of their audience which an increase in the seriousness of subject matter would. I'm sure that this increase would cause some of the younger members of the current audience to cease watching the show. Though, this decrease would be overshadowed by an influx of older viewers that would watch the show due to the increased maturity level of it.

****

"1.) But nor, as Pro seems to think, is there a particularly deep message behind the series. It doesn't have any more lessons to teach to children than the anime- in fact, I think the anime has the edge in this regard. 2.) In the manga, the protagonist easily defeats everyone, even the most powerful trainers and Pokemon in the world, whilst barely working for it. He's looks about eight. On the other hand, 3.) Ash is thrust into a larger world, following his dreams but never managing to get to the top. He fails to win when he takes on Indigo Plateau, and learns a lesson about picking himself back up from defeat. 4.) There is an emphasis on friendship and trust, while the manga is just about battling and getting stronger."

[1.) I agree that in the manga there is no deep all encompassing message, but there isn't one in the anime either. My point merely was that the two have differing styles when it comes to taking more than just entertainment from them. Ash's story mainly focuses on teaching lessons to children while Red's focuses more on allowing the audience to think about a lesson.
2.) In the manga Red defeats a majority of his opponents and these battles are not always easy. The fact that he wins is not even an issue either. Red is the strongest Pokemon Trainer in his storyline and he got that way through hard training with his Pokemon. That is the reason that he wins battles.
3.) While the lesson that you should pick yourself up after suffering a defeat is a good lesson, I say that never accomplishing any of your major dreams/aspirations is a bad lesson to be giving kids. Ash has never accomplished a major predetermined goal. Red on the other hand completed his goal of becoming the Pokemon League Champion after facing many hardships along the way.]
4.) This is an incorrect statement that will be addressed a bit lower.

****

"I should address Pro's point about the theme song here..."

[This rebuttal applies to the whole of the quoted paragraph.
My opponent's main point in this argument is that the manga is only about battling. This is a false statement because Red is also forms bonds with his Pokemon that are equal to, if not stranger than, the bonds that Ash makes with his Pokemon. The only difference is that Ash usually befriends first and then captures, whereas Red captures and then befriends. I am quite aware of the full text of the original theme and chose the portion that applied to my argument because in the rest of that contention I explain how the friendship aspect applies to the manga. My opponent took my argument out of context in order to give weight to his.]

****

"Should Ash's exploits in the movies be excluded?"

[I still contend that they should. Ash's accomplishments in the movies are not important to the storyline of the anime and were made mainly as a cash-cow for Nintendo. I could watch the entire Pokemon anime and it would make sense. I would not even need to know that the movies existed. The difference between the two is that Red's accomplishes have, for the most part, plot significance. These events are important to the plot of the manga which is where the two differ.

My opponent argues that if they were to follow the story of Red that Nintendo would have made all of his accomplishments into movies also. This would not be the case. As I explained above, Red's accomplishments have plot importance whereas Ash's accomplishments in the movie do not. This debate is about the idea that they should have followed Red's plot, not used the character, downplayed the achievements in the anime and make the major ones into movies.]

****

I look forward to my opponent's responses.

[1] http://www.facebook.com...
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] http://www.gamasutra.com...
Kinesis

Con

I thank Korashk for presenting his case. I am especially thankful for his well structured, numbered responses. I will respond in the same format.

:: Problems with the manga ::

1. The whole chapter is bizarre. While a certain amount of horror is perfectly acceptable in children's entertainment (And I still contend that it most certainly is children's entertainment), most people would draw the line at animated pokemon corpses [1], demonic children [2] and graphic pokemon-disembowelment [3]. This is the kind of stuff older people laugh at for being so bad, and gives children nightmares for weeks to come. It isn't the only example, either. Later on in the series Red is captured and almost dissolved in acid to facilitate the 'evolution ritual' of some grass pokemon. As I said, it smacks of fan fiction- weird, spaced out fan fiction.

2. That Red's pokemon all have cutesy nicknames isn't the only annoying thing- I guess it's just opinion, but...the dialogue just seems off a lot of the time. [4]- for instance, count the number of cliches on this page. It gets annoying after a while.

3. They might flesh it out a bit, but all throughout the manga it remains tied down to the story elements in the game. It isn't just the rigid adherence to the characters, people and places found in the game (with the exclusion of the the 'colour' characters, which all seem to be different versions of the player character), it just gets ridiculous after a while. I've already mentioned that the pokemon have health bars, but they even have 'cancel' buttons to stop pokemon evolving [5]. Pokemon that evolve in the game when traded evolve in the manga when traded. The manga series is just a desperate attempt to draw in fans of the games with constant, unsubtle references, and that is the kind of tie-in that rarely becomes popular, unlike the immensely popular anime as it is now.

4. Mewtwo is pathetic compared to his anime counterpart (who could destroy enemies, or create massive storms with a flick of his hand, and who could only be stood up to by another legendary). He isn't the only one who gets neutered, either. The legendary birds are much weaker, and no doubt the legendaries in later chapters which I have yet to read (and which are also based on the following games) will be. This is also significant, because it means that the only reason Red's accomplishments are greater than Ash's is often simply because his enemies are weaker.

5. I don't think that the anime DOES differentiate from the basic poke-elements in the games. It keeps all the pokemon, suitably fleshed out, it keeps evolution, pokemon battles, the main character and his rival...however, it differs enough from the games to make it unique, and a phenomena in its own right. It includes new challenges, new enemies and plot lines. The manga, on the other hand, hugs far too closely to the games.

:: Pokemon violence ::

1. Pros 'evidence' that pokemon is enjoyed by a substantial number of older people, as well as younger audiences, actually supports MY side of the argument. The group is comprised of people who *used* to play pokemon when they were younger. The title of the page is 'Back in my day, evolution simply meant a more badass Pokemon', clearly indicating FORMER pokemon devotes. Read the description in the side bar, which begins 'It is said that 99% of children ages 7-12 play Pokemon, and that the remaining 1% of children are liars...' [6]. I should probably thank Pro for providing such good evidence on my side of the argument.

2. For a start, we are talking about the anime, not the games, and secondly, who is to say that the franchise has not become hugely successful from a particular target market? Even if Pro can provide evidence that older people do buy the games (which he has not), this would not show that older people watch the anime, since games are generally aimed at a more general target market.

3. While deaths may not be that common in the manga (I'm unsure, as I haven't read that far into it), that fact remains that they are there, and they do happen repeatedly. What could scar a child more than watching their favourite pokemon brutally murdered on TV? Pro concedes that the more violent overtones of the show would cause younger members to stop watching, but thinks that older viewers would start watching instead. But pokemon is a show about cutesy creatures battling for badges. No self respecting teenager would be caught dead watching it. And the manga has an even more cutesy style to it. All the violence in the manga would do is scare off the younger viewers, and leave nothing in it's place.

:: Aspects of the manga/anime ::

1. Pro concedes that there is no encompassing message behind the manga, but claims that the same is true of the anime. I would disagree on both counts. The focus of the manga seems to be on becoming the most powerful, and defeating enemies, while the anime focuses on overcoming tough challenges by forming friendships and relying on others when needed, while still keeping the battling element intact. The latter is clearly a better message to be sending kids.

2. Red, in the manga, breezes through the toughest of challenges far too easily. While, yes, he faces some tough challenges, he ends up as more powerful than the Elite Four, the strongest, specialised pokemon trainers in the whole world. And to repeat the point- he is about twelve! He doesn't train that hard, either. It's just annoying that a little squirt manages to get so powerful, and I don't think it's justified. Ash, on the other hand, is young but strives hard to achieve his goals.

3. Pro admits that the anime sends a good message to kids, but then contends that it also sends a bad one, claiming that Ash never achieves his goals. But for a start, Ash achieves a great many significant goals in the anime, far more than my opponent gives him credit for, and secondly, the point is that he gains a great deal on the way. He may not become the most powerful trainer in the world, but he gains friends and rivals, helps people, and explores the world (with it's ever increasing regions). He may not be super powerful, but that is because he values some things above strength-for instance, he gave away arguably his strongest pokemon, Charizard, so it could improve itself and be with others of it's kind. [7]

:: Theme song ::

I think Ash's bonds with his pokemon are much stronger than Red's. In fact, it is mentioned specifically in the manga that Red's powerful pokemon obey him because of some power exhibited by the badges he collects- in other words, his pokemon are FORCED to obey him because he is a successful trainer. On the other hand, Ash's bonds are formed often through tears and sweat, for instance Charizard comes to be his friend because Ash stays up for a whole night helping it, and so gains it's respect [7]. Similar stories are true of many of Ash's other pokemon, while the same is not true of Red.

:: Movies ::

For a start, some of the anime would NOT make sense, because it specifically relates to the movie. Whether the movies are cash-cows is of little relevance-what matters is whether they would do the same if Red's adventures were to become as popular. I see no reason why they wouldn't. If the manga were made into a series, and became as popular, which I don't think it would, then no doubt the creators would want to expand on it's popularity by making the more epic parts of pokemon into movies. No doubt they would adapt parts of the plot into full blown movies.

I await Pro's response.

[1] Here's another one- eww. http://www.onemanga.com...
[2] http://www.onemanga.com...
[3] http://www.onemanga.com...
[4] http://www.onemanga.com...
[5] http://www.onemanga.com...
[6] http://www.facebook.com...
[7] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Debate Round No. 2
Korashk

Pro

I apologize in advance for the briefness of my post. The holiday season is a bit hectic.

Response to :: Problems with the manga ::

1.) This whose section is very opinionated and no source is given to substantiate the claims. This subjective viewpoint does not necessarily represent the views of the majority when it comes to the subjects of graphicness.

2.) My opponent obviously finds the dialogue of the manga to be unsatisfactory. I do not but out opinions on this subject should not affect the outcome of this debate. As a final point I did not find anything wrong with my opponent's source {4}.

3.) My opponent still tries to maintain the point that the manga is only a resource for the fans of the game to garner enjoyment and that it has very little plot differentiation. this is untrue, all one needs to do is read the text in source {1} of the original post to see this. If you need a reference the the plot of the games then here is a synopsis [1].

4.) If you read the two chapters where Mewtwo appears in the monga [2], you can see that he can create storms and destroy Pokemon. Also, the legendary Pokemon in the manga follow more closely to the game's. they are meant to be the ultimate test of a player's ability to capture pokemon. they were not intended to be nearly invincible as they are in all of Ash's movies.

5.) In the game Pokemon do not simply join you from the wild. Period. This is a huge differentiation from the games. The elements that are listed by my opponent are all elements that a thing needs in order to be called Pokemon, but just its basic elements. The anime does not only differ from the game, it differs greatly, The manga also differs, just not on as large of a scale. My opponent is again trying to convince you that differentiation makes a thing good when this is not the case.

Response to :: Pokemon violence ::

1.) the Facebook group is a fan-group for things that are Pokemon, not a haven for those that used to enjoy it. Its title does not clearly indicate anything other than the fact that when those in grade-school in the late 1990s attributed the word evolution to Pokemon instead of Darwin. the quote you reference on the side-bar is just that, a comedic quote meant to inspire a chuckle from its reader.

2.) It is impossible to garner marketing statistics from children because children are incapable of generating market trends ion their own. A vast majority of the sales in my statistics came from a person with a personal income. The percentage of the population that is under the are of 18 and has a personal income is dwarfed by the percentage of those who are over it. Since my opponent has already stated that the target audience of the show is Pre-teens [Round 1 Paragraph 4] I have proven that this revenue is generated by those outside of Pokeomn's target audience.

3.) I can think of many things that would scar a child more than watching a cartoon die in a way that is not all that graphic. For the sake of decency I will not state them here. In this rebuttal my opponent again uses subjective terms to describe an aspect of the show that is subjective in itself. I can simply state that I do not think that the manga is "cutesy" and successfully refute this argument.

Response to :: Aspects of the manga/anime ::

1.) Having a point is different than having a message. A message illustrates a lesson whereas a point is a generalization to be expanded on. I did not say that the manga and anime do not have points. They do not have a universal message.

2.) My opponent has mentioned the age od Red a few times, he states that Red is 12, well Ash is 10 at the beginning of the anime. Since my opponent is including the movies when he thinks of Ash's accomplishments then this 10-year-old has saved the world 15 times. My opponent claims that this is less ridiculous than training to be the best Pokemon Trainer over time.

3.) I never said that Ash didn't accomplish goals, just that he never accomplishes goals, I said that he never accomplishes major ones that would bring prestige to himself outside of a limited demoghaphic such as his many victories as local competitions. These victories do not really count as predetermined goals either because Ash would not have even known that he wanted to win them until he traveled to X city/town/village.

Response to :: Theme song ::

The badges do not force all of Red's Pokemon to opey him. They aid when a Pokemon obtained through a trade are not yet trained. Here is a description of what the badges do in the manga [3]. My opponent also makes it seem that Red's Pokemon all are forced to obey him while this is not the case.

Response to :: Movies ::

Exactly, _some_ of the anime would be a little confusing. Not understanding a part of something does not directly correlate to not understanding it in general. All of Red's accomplishments have plot importance. I will again say that the marketing strategy of Nintendo does not matter in this debate.

In conclusion I strongly urge a Pro vote and thank my opponent for what I consider to be my best debate so far.

[1] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
[2] http://www.mangafox.com...
[3] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Kinesis

Con

Thanks to Korashk for the most fun debate I've had on DDO so far! With that said, I'll get right into it.

:: Problems with the manga ::

1. It is Pros job, when I present facts, and my interpretation of those facts and how they might affect the target market, to refute my claims. It isn't enough to simply dismiss them.

Pro is also quite vague. I DID provide sources to substantiate my points on the manga, but didn't for my claims on whether older people would laugh at it and children would be scared by it. For this, I simply appeal to the audiences common sense- would an anise with rotting corpses, possessed children and dead Pok�mon be suitable for little kids? I think it would not. The voters can decide.

2. Once again, Pro hammers me on admitting that it is my opinion. Yes, but if it is a good opinion and is supported my the facts, then again, it is his job to refute me. Stating that his opinion is different without substantiating it just isn't enough. Again, I appeal to the audience to look at the provided source. If you think that the dialogue is unnecessarily corny, then the point goes in my favour. If you think cutesy nicknames for all the main pokemon are annoying, that is another point in my favour.

3. By all means, readers should look at the plot synopsis for the manga. [1] There, they will find constant, unending references to the games. They will find that Red visits all the people and places in the games, in the same order as the games, battle the same gym leaders, and so on. Pro has not responded at all to the desperate attempts to keep to every aspect of the games by including cancel buttons to stop pokemon evolving, pokemon evolving when traded, etc. etc...

4. Mewtwo in the manga cannot create storms-he can only create a mini-whirlwind to protect himself, which is hardly that impressive. Yes, the legendary pokemon in the manga follow much more closely to the games! And in doing so, they lose all the mystical and powerful traits that make them interesting in the anime. In the manga, they are just unimpressive.

5. I'm not sure what Pro is trying to prove here. In the games wild pokemon are just mindless animals that attack people on sight, true, but that hardly makes any sense when fleshed out into an actual storyline, considering the radical transformation that turns them into trainer's loyal battlers. It makes much more sense if the trainer actually gains the trust of the pokemon he uses, then they would follow him.

It seems we are at another clash of opinions. It, again, comes down to what the audience wants. Does the audience think that a carbon-copy version of the games in anime form would be better than a unique storyline with new places, settings and storylines? I think that the latter is clearly better, voters should vote on which they think is.

:: Pokemon violence ::

1. Okay, perhaps I misunderstood the title a little, but the quote on the side bar, comedic or not, clearly shows that the people on the facebook group consider pokemon to be a children's thing. Plus, while some people in the facebook group might be older (i.e. the administrators), there is no reason at all to suppose that the overwhelming membership of the group is anything other than Nintendo's target market range. As such, it is useless as evidence.

2. Okay, so people outside the target market buy pokemon games- but the reason for this is blatantly obvious. Parents buy them for their children. Besides, even disregarding this, it still doesn't prove that significant amount of older people would watch the anime, which is what we are actually debating.

3. For a start, it is fairly graphic, and just because there are even worse things doesn't make it any more suitable for children (having read further, multiple people die in the fourth arc) [2], and secondly, it should be obvious just from looking at the manga that it is in a more childish, cartoony, and, yes, cutesy style than most.

:: Aspects of the manga/anime ::

1. I'm not sure what Pro intends to prove with this. If the point behind the anime is a more suitable one, then regardless of whether it is a recurring theme or an all encompassing message, it still counts in favour of the anime, and against the manga.

2. Okay, I stand corrected. Since Ash is around 10, and from looking at the manga Red is clearly younger than Ash, Red must be around 8 or less. Ash obviously gets older as time goes on (the anime started in 1997) [3], and as my opponent points out he rarely gets into any particularly dangerous situations, so there's no particular reason to think he wouldn't be able to do the things he does in the anime. (he often plays a quite small role in the movies, changing some critical juncture). On the other hand, often Red's fights degenerate into psychological warfare, which no child should be able to handle.

3. Why should predetermined goals count any more than goals accomplished within particular places at particular time? Ash helps people, wins, or does well in important competitions, he collects badges which is a major predetermined quest, he saves the freakin' world, which is more than Red ever does, he does a huge amount of good in the anime. I would say he does as much as Red- his accomplishments just aren't quite as much to do with power and strong pokemon.

:: Theme song ::

Pro's wiki source is sorely lacking. To better understand what the badges do, we should go to the source material [4]. It clearly states that badges give owners the power to control their pokemon (as per the games, of course...). Obviously Red is using this power, as a young and inexperienced trainer who has ridiculously powerful pokemon. Also, in the manga there is no where near the amount of personal connection between trainer and pokemon that occurs in the anime.

:: Movies ::

Right, so Pro concedes that at least a portion of the anime is tied to the movies, so they aren't just stand alone cash cows. The marketing strategy of Nintendo does matter because we can use it as a guideline as to how the manga would be developed were it made into an anime.

======================

Thanks to Korashk for a great debate, vote CON.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://www.otakuzone.com...
[3] http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
[4] http://www.onemanga.com...
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Korashk 7 years ago
Korashk
Holy crap. This debate was decided purely on arguments. That is awesome.
Posted by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
I love this topic but was a bit disappointed by the debate. It seemed to get bogged down by some unimportant and entirely subjective contentions (e.g. bad dialogue) and only skimmed the substance of these two characters and their accompanying plots. As such, I didn't see any convincing evidence that Red or his storyline would increase the show's audience or entertainment value. Con did well showing that the changes to the cartoon would be both unoriginal and awkwardly received given the target audience.

Arguments to Con, with all other categories tied.
Posted by Korashk 7 years ago
Korashk
It's a mining tool in Germany I think. The thing that looks like a saw is actually a bunch of scoops. There was one in beginning of the movie Avatar.
Posted by Kinesis 7 years ago
Kinesis
Hey, what's that thing on your profile picture Korashk?
Posted by Kinesis 7 years ago
Kinesis
I'll try. I'm really enjoying this debate :)
Posted by Korashk 7 years ago
Korashk
Just pretend that it's there. That's what I do.
Posted by Kinesis 7 years ago
Kinesis
Gah...It's really annoying that it doesn't allow accents on the 'e'. Poke-mon just sounds weird, and kinda wrong.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Korashk 7 years ago
Korashk
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Vote Placed by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
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Vote Placed by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
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Vote Placed by Nails 7 years ago
Nails
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