The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
10 Points

The Pope is the Antichrist.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/8/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,607 times Debate No: 58660
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (22)
Votes (2)




As much as I'd hate to be blatant and even considerably rude to some, I will be arguing that the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church is the Antichrist that the Bible speaks of.
I've made this debate impossible to accept, so if you are interested in arguing that the Pope is NOT the anti-Christ, then the following must apply:
1) The Con is a Christian, (preferably Catholic, but not required)
2) The Con believes the Bible cover to cover, Sola Scriptura

There are four rounds, first is acceptance, second and third are arguments and rebuttals, fourth is rebuttals and conclusions.


I accept this debate and look forward to a great debate as the Burden of Proof shall be on Pro.
Debate Round No. 1


I want to thank the Con, lannan13 for accepting the debate, first of all.

I chose lannan13 because he seemed the most qualified for the Con position that would for sure have some punctuality for each round.

So, to begin, we must ask ourselves:

Who, or what, is the Antichrist?
Evil alliance, or sinister individual?

Some say his appearance is still in the future. Others say he appeared long ago in the days of ancient Rome. But the Bible indicates that he is alive today!

The Bible prophecies teach this antichrist power will play a crucial role in the final events of earth's history!

With such an "outlandish" claim and charge against one of the most powerful and respected religious leaders in the world, we have no choice but to ask many questions about this accusation.

To understand fully who the antichrist is, we must also fully understand the prophecy in Daniel 7.

Please be aware that you discover will in fact displease, upset and possibly even enrage many people, so remember that the prophecy of Daniel chapter 7 comes from Jesus, who loves you. Pray for God's guidance as you delve into this urgent subject.

Do not take my word for the evidence from the Bible I will use. I urge that you read Daniel 7 right now, if you have not before.

As the chapter begins, Daniel sees four beasts coming up out of the sea. In prophecy, what does a beast represent? What does the sea represent?

"The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth."
Daniel 7:23

"The waters ... are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
Revelation 17:15

The beasts in Daniel 7 represent kingdoms or nations. Just as water represents multitudes of people or large populations.

The four beasts of Daniel 7 represent the four world kingdoms (verses 17, 18). Babylon, the first kingdom (Daniel 2:38, 39), is represented as a lion in Daniel 7:4. (See also Jeremiah 4:7 50:17, 43, 44 for Babylon pictured as a lion elsewhere.)
What do the "eagle's wings" mean? What do the "four winds" of verse 2 represent?

"The Lord shall bring a nation against thee ... as swift as the eagle flieth."
Deuteronomy 48:29

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts, ... a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth."
Jeremiah 25:32,33

The wings of eagles represent speed.
(See also Jeremiah 4:13; Habakkuk 1:6-9.)
Winds represent strife, commotion, and destruction. (See also
Revelation 7:1-3.)

What kingdom does the bear represent (Daniel 7:5)?
What do the three ribs in its mouth symbolize?

Read Daniel 8. Notice that the beasts in chapter 8 parallel those in chapter 7. Daniel 8:20 specifically names Medo-Persia as the kingdom that precedes the rough goat, or Greece, of verse 21. It is the second world kingdom, the same power as the bear of Daniel 7. The empire was made up of two groups of people.

The Medes came up first (represented in Daniel 7:5 by the bear coming up on one side), but the Persians eventually became stronger (represented in Daniel 8:3by the ram's second horn which grew "higher," or taller). The three ribs represent the three principal powers conquered by Medo-Persia:

Lydia, Babylon, and Egypt.

Greece, the third kingdom (Daniel 8:21), is represented by a leopard with four wings and four heads (Daniel 7:6).
What do the heads represent?
What do the four wings represent?

The four heads represent the four kingdoms into which the empire of Alexander the Great was divided when he died.

The four generals who headed these areas were:
Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, and Seleucus.

The four wings (instead of two like the lion) represent super-speed, which was true of Alexander's conquests (Jeremiah 4:11-13).

The Roman empire, the fourth world kingdom, is represented by a horrible monster with iron teeth and 10 horns (Daniel 7:7).
What do the horns represent?

The 10 horns represent the 10 kings or kingdoms into which pagan Rome was eventually split (Daniel 7:24). (These 10 kingdoms are the same as the 10 toes of the image described in Daniel 2:41-44.)
Roving barbarian tribes swept in upon the Roman empire and carved out land niches for their people.

Seven of those 10 tribes developed into the countries of modern Western Europe, while three were uprooted and destroyed. Do the common research, and see for yourself that these ten tribes indeed go as follows:

Visigoths - Spain

Anglo-Saxons - England

Franks - France

Alemani - Germany

Burgundians - Switzerland

Lombards - Italy

Suevi - Portugal

Heruli - Rooted up

Ostrogoths - Rooted up

Vandals - Rooted up

In the Daniel 7 prophecy, what happens next?

"I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."
Daniel 7:8

The "little horn" power appears next. We must identify it carefully because God takes more space describing it than the other four kingdoms combined. Why? Because the biblical characteristics identify it as the Antichrist of prophecy and history. There must be no mistake in making this identification.

There are even crystal clear points of identification!

God gives us nine characteristics of Antichrist in Daniel 7 so we can be certain of his identity. And even though some may find these truths from God's Word painful, we must be honest enough to accept them as His revealed will. Now let's discover what Jesus' nine points are:

A. The "little horn" or kingdom "came up among them"the 10 horns which were the kingdoms of Western Europe (Daniel 7:8). So it would be a little kingdom somewhere in Western Europe.

B. It would have a man at its head who could speak for it (Daniel 7:8).

C. It would pluck up or uproot three kingdoms (Daniel 7:8).

D. It would be "diverse" or different from the other 10 kingdoms (Daniel 7:24).

E. It would make war with and "wear out" or persecute the saints (Daniel 7:21, 25).

F. It would emerge from the pagan Roman empire, the fourth world kingdom (Daniel 7:7, 8).

G. God's people (the saints) would "be given into his hand" for "a time and times and the dividing of time" (Daniel 7:25).

H. It would "speak great words against" or blaspheme God (Daniel 7:25). In Revelation 13:5, the Bible says the same power speaks "great things and blasphemies."

I. It would "think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25.

Don't forget all these identification points come directly from the Bible. They are not some human opinion or speculation. Historians could tell you quickly what power is being described. These points can fit only one power, the papacy. But in order to be certain, let us carefully examine all nine points, one by one. There must be no room left for doubt.

How the papacy fits these points:

A. It "came up among" the 10 kingdoms of Western Europe.
The geographical location of the papal power was in Rome, Italy the very heart of the territory of Western Europe.

B. It would have a man at its head who speaks for it.
The papacy meets this identifying mark because it does have one man at the head (the pope) who speaks for it.

C. It would pluck up or uproot three kingdoms.
The emperors of Western Europe were largely Catholic and supported the papacy in its growth and authority. Three Arian kingdoms, however, did not support the papacy, the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths. So the Catholic emperors decided they must be subdued or destroyed. Here is how Dr. Mervyn Maxwell, a theologian and historian, described the results in volume 1, page 129, of his book God Cares:

"The Catholic emperor Zeno (474-491) arranged a treaty with the Ostrogoths in 487 which resulted in the eradication of the kingdom of the Arian Heruls in 493. And the Catholic emperor Justinian (527-565) exterminated the Arian Vandals in 534 and significantly broke the power of the Arian Ostrogoths in 538. Thus were Daniel's three horns the Heruls, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths'plucked up by the roots.' "
It is not difficult to recognize that the papacy fits this point.

D. It would be "diverse" or different from the other kingdoms.
The papacy clearly fits this description, also. It came on the scene as a religious power and was totally different from the secular nature of the other 10 kingdoms.

E. It would make war with and persecute the saints.
That the church did persecute is a well-known fact. The papacy clearly admits doing so. Much supportive evidence exists. Even conservative historians claim the church probably destroyed at least 50 million people over matters of religious conviction. We will quote here from two sources:

1. "That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. 1

2. In The History of the Inquisition of Spain, D. Ivan Antonio Llorente provides these figures from the Spanish Inquisition alone:

  • 31,912 persons were condemned and perished in the flames.
  • 241,450 persons were condemned to severe penalties.
F. It would emerge from the fourth kingdom of iron - the pagan Roman Empire.
We are quoting two authorities on this point:

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more than the Roman Empire baptised ... The very capital of the old Roman Empire became the capital of the Christian empire. The office of Pontifex Maximus was continued in that of the pope." 2

"Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Arians left ... [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the emperor's disappearance. The Roman Church in this way privily pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation." 3

So, once again, the point fits the papacy.

I tried to character count as high as possible, yet still I have not enough space for all of my evidence. I will prepare the rest of my argument for Round 3 as lannan13 prepares his introductory for Round 2.



As I said in the comments I will post my contentions this round since Pro did not finish his Contentions in order to make it fair.

Contention 1: The three Anti-Christs

Nostradamus predicted three anti-Christs. Let's see how correct they are and their attacks against the church as well.


Napoleon was the first anti-christ.

"An Emperor shall be born near Italy,
Who shall do great harm to the Empire,
People shall say what company does he keep,
It shall be said that he is less of a prince than a butcher."

France being near Italy. Napolean rises to become Emporer of France after the French Revolution. Napoleon also had suffered hundreds of thousands of casulaties on the side of the French and his opponents.

"From simple Soldier, he shall head the Empire,
From the short military Mantle (plain soldier) to the long military Mantle,
Happy with the Army, but hating the church,
He will be hurtful to the priesthood as water which swells the sponge"

Napoleon was a soldier who helped fight for France against Austria and Britian during the French Revolution. His name in Greek mean Exterminator and no one in history before then has used that name. Napoleon fought two wars against the Papal states (empire of the Roman Catholic Church) and forced the Puis the 7th into exile. The Pope died while under the care of Napoleon and Napoleon used this as a political tatic when he burried the Pope and brought in the Catholic Church into the French Empire. Napoleon was also excommunicated by the Church as well. ( and (

Napoleon was code named “PAU, NAY, LORON.” Which are 3 small cities in southern France and when Rearanged it spells out NAPOLEON ROY.


Nostradamus also predicted a man named Hister (Hitler) who bore the crooked cross. (The swastica) Let's look at the Phrophacies.

"The great speech-maker audaciously and un-shamefully,
Shall get himself elected as Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces,
By the boldness of his disputes,
He shall cease all diplomatic relations, in the city the fearful shall re-arm themselves."

Hence, Hitler began to rebuild his military and made annexations of Czechslovakia, Austria, and Poland.

"Wild beasts will be crossing the river because of hunger,
Most of the battlefield will be against Hitler,
In cages of iron, battle tanks, will he send his great army,
When the child of Germany observes no law."

Here Nostrodamus shows Hitler's Blitzkreig methoods.

"The exiles (the Jews) deported to the (European) Isles,
By a very cruel monarch (Head of State),
They shall be killed and then their bodies burned,
Because they had been marked (as Jews)."

Here he talks about the Holocaust and the Jewish Concentration camps. Jews were exiled and were forced to wear the Star of David. Now let me throw in a Bible verse to show that there is a connection here.

"The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for the Lord has spoken: “Children have I reared and brought up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.” Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, children who deal corruptly! They have forsaken the Lord, they have despised the Holy One of Israel, they are utterly estranged. Why will you still be struck down? Why will you continue to rebel? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint." (Isaiah 1:1-31)

Here we see that Isaiah predicts that Israel will be punished and stuck down. He warns the Israelites that they must repent or face a grim future as they did in World War 2.

Job 12:14-18 "
If he tears down, none can rebuild; if he shuts a man in, none can open. If he withholds the waters, they dry up; if he sends them out, they overwhelm the land. With him are strength and sound wisdom; the deceived and the deceiver are his. He leads counselors away stripped, and judges he makes fools. He looses the bonds of kings and binds a waistcloth on their hips."

In this one here Job shows how destructive Hitler is. He turned kings (leaders of other nations) into slaves as he conquered a large portion of Europe.
map of Axis-held territory in Europe, 1941


In 1999, seven months,
From the sky (North) a great frightening King will come
The great King of Angoulmois lives again.
Before (and) after March (2000), (he) rules for happiness.

We currently do not know who the third anti-christ is, but from here we could see it might be Vladamir Putin as he took office in July of 1998, but in 1999 he became acting Prime Minister of the Russian Federation.

“From the Orient shall come the treacherous one,
To strike at the Heirs of Romulus from the Adriatic sea,
With his Libyan fleet,
The inhabitants of Malta and other nearby islands shall tremble."

Here we can see that the heirs of Romulus may refur to the Western Roman Empire and Oriental (asian) would make Putin a perfect canadate here. (

“And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him” Ezeikiel 28.

Many scholars state that Maggog is China and Gog is Russia. Meshech has Greek relatance to Moscow. While in the Prince James version it uses the Prince of Rosh. Which can be close to Rus which was indeed an ancent name for Russia. Tubal referrs to the Tobol River which was where the capital of the Russian control of Serbia was. (

Or perhaps it's someone else?

"Mabus will soon die, then will come,
A horrible undoing of people and animals,
At once one will see vengeance,
One hundred powers, thirst, famine, when the comet will pass."

Perhaps this is Saddam? Saddam was left still in power after the Persian Gulf War of 1990. He came back and began commiting mass atrocities. Nostradamus also says that there say be 3 Kingdoms from the west to unite against the west. Possibly the Axis of Evil? Also if you invert Saddam's name and change around the ds then you can see it's Mabbus.

"The antichrist very soon annihilates the three,
twenty-seven years his war will last.
The unbelievers are dead, captive, exiled;
with blood, human bodies, water and red hail covering the earth."

Saddam is looked to in the Arab World as a Martyer. It seems very likely that the War on Terror or the turmoil in the Middle East will last 27 years. The forum of Jihad that Saddam used can been seen likely here as jihadists kill non-believers and those who disagree with the Muslum faith. (

Debate Round No. 2


I want to thank lannan13 for all his cooperation, and I will post the rest of my contentions as late as possible to help him keep in punctuality.

G. God's people (the saints) would "be given into his hand" for "a time and times and the dividing of time." Daniel 7:25.

Several things need clarification in connection with this point:

1. A time is a year, times is two years, and the dividing of time is a half-year. The Amplified Bibletranslates it: "Three and one-half years." 4

2. This same time period is mentioned seven times (Daniel 7:25 12:7 Revelation 11:2, 3 12:6,14 13:5) in the books of Daniel and Revelation: three times as a time, times, and half a time twice as 42 months and twice as 1,260 days. Based on the 30-day calendar used by the Jews, these time periods are all the same amount of time:

3 1/2 years = 42 months = 1,260 days.

3. One prophetic day equals one literal year (Ezekiel 4:6 Numbers 14:34).

4. Thus, the little horn (Antichrist) was to have power over the saints for 1,260 prophetic days or 1,260 literal years.

5. The rule of the papacy began in A.D. 538, when the last of the three opposing Arian kingdoms was uprooted. Its rule continued until 1798 when Napoleon's general, Berthier, took the pope captive with hopes of destroying both Pope Pius VI and the political, secular power of the papacy. This period of time is an exact fulfillment of the 1,260-year prophecy. The blow was a deadly wound for the papacy, but that wound began to heal and continues healing today.

6. This same period of persecution is mentioned in Matthew 24:21 as the worst period of persecution God's people will ever experience. Verse 22 tells us it was so devastating that not one soul would have survived if God had not shortened it. But God did shorten it. The persecution ended long before the pope was taken captive in 1798. It is plain to see that this point, likewise, fits the papacy.

H. It would speak "great words" of blasphemy "against the most High [God]."
Blasphemy has two definitions in Scripture:

1. Claiming to forgive sins (Luke 5:21).

2. Claiming to be God (John 10:33).

Does this point fit the papacy? Yes!

Let's first look at the evidence for it claiming to forgive sins: "Does the Priest truly forgive the sins, or does he only declare that they are remitted? The Priest does really and truly forgive the sins in virtue of the power given to him by Christ."

5 The papacy further undermines Jesus by setting up a system of confession to an earthly priest, thus bypassing Jesus, our High Priest (Hebrews 3:1 8:1, 2) and only Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).

Next consider the evidence for it claiming to be God: "We [the popes] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."

6 Here is another: "The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."

7 Its obvious this point, likewise, fits the papacy.

I. It would "think to change times and laws."
In a future Study Guide we will deal with the "times" of this point. It is a major topic and needs separate consideration. But what about changing the "laws"? The Amplified Bible translates "laws" as "the law." The reference is to changing God's law. Of course, no one can really change it, but has the papacy attempted to do so? The answer is "yes."

In its catechisms, the papacy has omitted the second commandment against veneration of images and has shortened the fourth commandment from 94 words to eight and divided the tenth commandment into two commandments. (Check this for yourself. Compare the Ten Commandments in any Catholic catechism with God's list of the commandments in Exodus 20:3-17.)

There is no doubt that the little horn power of Daniel chapter 7 (the Antichrist) is the papacy. No other organization could possibly fit these nine points. And incidentally, this is no new teaching. Every Reformer, without exception, spoke of the papacy as Antichrist. 8

Words of Care and Concern
Lest some should think that we are attacking fellow Christians by identifying this little-horn power, please keep in mind that the prophecy is aimed at a system and not individuals. There are sincere, devout Christians in all churches, including the Catholic faith. Daniel chapter 7 is simply a message of judgment and correction upon a large religious institution which compromised with paganism, like so many other churches that arose after her.

Prophecy Reveals Faults of All Faiths
Other prophecies point out the faults of Protestant and Jewish faiths. God has true people in all religions. His true people (no matter what their faith) will always humbly accept the correction of the Lord and will not shut their ears and hearts against Him by self-defensiveness. We should be very thankful that God's Word speaks with impartial honesty on every subject.

1 W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, Volume 2, p. 40.

22 Alexander Clarence Flick, The Rise of the Medieval Church, pp. 148, 149.

3 Adolf Harnack, What is Christianity? (New York: Putnam, second edition, revised, 1901), pp. 269, 270.

4 The Amplified Bible, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan 1962.

5 Joseph Deharbe, S.J., A Complete Catechism of the Catholic Religion (New York: Schwartz, Kirwin & Fauss, 1924), p. 279.

6 Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter "The Reunion of Christendom" (dated June 20, 1894) trans. in the Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), p. 304.

7 Catholic National, July 1895.

8 R. Allen Anderson, Unfolding the Revelation, p. 137.


I will now prove how the 3 anti-Christs meet the Biblical prophicies vs. the Papacy.

The 10 horns of Europe

Both Hitler's Germany and Napoleon's France are both included here. However there was not 10 Kingdoms that came from the Roman Empire, but instead there were actually 15 Kingdoms! Believe it or not, but the Goths were Russian Decent so that also means that Russian President Vladimir Putin is also included. ( Saddam does not fit this prophacy.

Man at the head who speaks for it.

All of the Anti-Christs I have mentioned run a totalitarian system. Napoleon head of the Napoleonic Empire, Hitler head of NAZI Germany, Putin ahead of the Russian Federation, and Saddam Hussien the head of Iraq (former). The Pope is also the head of Papacy.

UpRoot 3 Kingdoms

Putin has uprooted Chenchnia, Crimea (casted Ukraine into Chaos and Civil War), allowed Civil War in Syria to fester, and the USSR. Napoleon uprooted the Papal States, Spain, and Germany (and Austria if you don't include the Papal States). Hitler uprooted Austria, Czechslovakia, and Poland before World War 2 even began. Saddam invaded Kuwait, Syria, and Iran. Though none were uprooted.

Diverse from other kingdoms

The Papacy is not indeed unique. My opponent is forgetting one other Church with many similarities to the Roman Catholic church and that is the Eastern Orthodox Church. Many are begining to argue that Russia under Putin is becoming an Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church Theocracy. With many very right laws and that the Russian Heirachry would bow down to such perks. Putin has banned homoexual parades and events, he cut any funding for abortion and he even banned swearing. All things that are sins in the Orthodox Church as well as the Catholic Church. There has been many theocracies throughout history of the world and the Papacy is no different and hence not unique.The Kingdom of Israel could have been concidered a Jewish Theocracy and that was in times before the Catholic Church. ( Napoleon was the first modern day Democratic Leader in Europe until he became emporer. Hitler became leader of NAZI Germany also elected then became dictactor. He set up secreate police and concentration camps and killed everyone who did not agree with him. Putin turned a Democracy into a Theocracy and set up very conservative laws. Saddam Hussien was implaced by the US and was Dictator who also killed all of those who did not agree with him by striking fear into his challengers.

It would make war with the Saints

I'd hate to be the one who says it, but the Roman Catholic church did not make war with the Saints the they fought for them. Pope Urban wanted to recapture the Holy Land from the Muslums due to the Crimes they were committing. The Spanish Inquisition was to regain land for the Spainish and force the Jews from hiding. Napoleon detained and killed the Pope. (as stated last round) Hitler fought and killed the Jews. Putin invaded Ukraine were the Jewish culture of Hava Nagila has come from and raged war against the Jews though the Orthodox Church has urged Russia not to do so. ( and ('s-division-30775.html) Saddam Hussein has committed massacres against Shittes.

From the Roman Empire and become a world kingdom

The Papacy did not become a world power, but many others did. Napoleon's France emerged and became a power. The Orthodox Church comes from Byzantum (Eastern Roman Empire) and has it's home in the Russian Federation where Putin Resides. Hitler's Germany became a world power. (3rd Reinch).

It would rule the People

My opponent here is incorrect. The Papal States began their rule in the year 754 AD, thus disproving that the Papacy can possible fit this Biblical Verse. (

Great Blaspheme against God

Napoleon's France topled the Catholic church, destroyed all Christian items, and made a new religious Pagan Religion for the nation. They also ended the Papal States. In Mein Kampf Hitler argued that we must fight the Jews to defend God. (Page 60 of Mein Kampf) Vladamir Putin has lectured his people and Obama even about several contradicting statesments of Religous teachings. ( Saddam Hussein has tried to rebuild in Babylon where he spent over $500 million.

"Because of the LORD’s anger she will not be inhabited but will be completely desolate. All who pass Babylon will be horrified and scoff because of all her wounds." Jeremiah 50:13

"Leave Babylon, flee from the Babylonians! Announce this with shouts of joy and proclaim it. Send it out to the ends of the earth; say, The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob.” Isaiah 48:20

Saddam fired several rockets at Israel during the Persian Gulf War. The Israelis are the sons and daughters of Jacob.

"Look, here comes a man in a chariot with a team of horses. And he gives back the answer: ‘Babylon has fallen, has fallen! All the images of its gods lie shattered on the ground!’ “ Isaiah 21:9

Here we can see the man in the Chariot can easily be President Bush (both) As during their Presidentcy's Iraq had fallen.

"Babylon will be a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals, an object of horror and scorn, a place where no one lives." Jeremiah 51:37

Here we can see that after Saddam's fall Iraq was left in sambles as it still is today with the ISIS invasion and Civil War.

It would think to change times and laws

The Napoleonic France changed the week to 10 days and changed the months as well. After France had fallen in 1815 all Monarchy was restored in Europe. Hitler's fall led to the Cold War and the formation of the United Nations for people to work together in an attempt to solve world problems. The fall of Saddam lead to the War on Terror in the Middle East as well as massive Big Brother laws in the US. Putin has cut funding for abortions, banned homosexuality, and swearing.
Debate Round No. 3


Many people have believed the Antichrist to be openly against God and His people;

We usually consider the word "anti" to mean "against". But in "Antichrist" it means "in the place of" or "instead of". Antichrist is guilty of assuming the prerogatives of God. It claims:

A. Its priests can forgive sins which only God can do (Luke 5:21).

B. To have changed God's law by dropping out the second commandment (on worshiping images) and splitting the tenth into two parts. God's law cannot be changed (Matthew 5:18).

C. That the pope is God on earth.

Satan's Original Plan
Satan's original plan (in heaven) was to assume God's position and authority. His aim was to oust God and rule in His place. When Satan was ejected from heaven, his aim did not change, but rather intensified. Through the centuries he has endeavored (using various human agencies) to discredit God and take over His position.

Antichrist Appears to Be Spiritual
Satan aims to replace God in these last days by deceiving people into following Antichrist, who appears spiritual and holy. The main purpose of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation is to expose Satan's traps and strategies and lead people to anchor in Jesus and His Word for safety.

Antichrist Will Deceive Many
Most people will follow the Antichrist (Revelation 13:3), thinking they are following Christ. Only the very elect will be safe (Matthew 24:23, 24). They will be safe because they test every spiritual teaching and leader by Scripture (Isaiah 8:20). Religious deception is everywhere today. We cannot be too careful.

Does the Bible say in 1 John 2:18-22 that there are many antichrists?
Yes, there have been many antichrists down through history who have worked against the kingdom of God. However, there is only one entity that specifically fulfills all the prophesied characteristics of the Antichrist. In Daniel chapters 7 and 8 and in Revelation chapter 13, you will find at least 10 identifying traits of the Antichrist. These 10 identifying marks can be fulfilled in only one entity, the papacy.

I want to thank lannan13 for his time and cooperation with this shortened debate, and my apologies.



Many people have believed the Antichrist to be openly against God and his people

My opponent is incorrect here as Priest receive the commission through God that they are able to do so. Let me give you a Bible verse here. "Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him every one that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38–39) Here we can see that God has given Priest the ability to perform the rite as they are a tool for which God may forgive his people.

B. I agree one mustn't change God's law. The three anti-Christ's have done so by destroying those who teach the Gospel while the Papacy is only teaching the Gospel.

C. I will want to see some evidence for this point.

We have seen the 4 people I have mention last round attack and destroy the church and get tons of public support as they claimed that they are fighting for God. My opponent has also conceded that there multiple anti Christ's which feeds my argument of there being three anti-Christ's.

Drops by Pro

My opponent has dropped the fallowing Phrocacies that do not fit in the Papacy.
-Diverse from Other Kingdoms
-War with the Saints
-World Power
-Rule the People
-Great Blaspheme against God
-It would change times and laws

Now you may ask yourself why is this important that I bring these to your attention. Pro states that the Anti-Christ can only be found by these 10 marks that he brought up. I have proved that 6 Don't even protruded to the Papacy while the rest pertain to the 3 Anti-Christ's predicted by Nastrodamus.

With that I thank you. Please vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SebUK 2 years ago
These sort of prophecies scare me to death.
Posted by lannan13 3 years ago
Thanks for the debate!
Posted by lannan13 3 years ago
If you could please try to hold off on your response to this debate as long as you can. I will have internet access, but no computer access to type up my argument with for the weekend. I will return Tuesday.
Posted by lannan13 3 years ago
No, it's okay.
Posted by CentristX 3 years ago
Very well, sorry for the inconvenience.
Posted by lannan13 3 years ago
I will only post my Contentions since you did not complete yours and the next round can be for rebuttles.
Posted by lannan13 3 years ago
I assume you mean Pope Francis or just the Pope in general.
Posted by lannan13 3 years ago
I accept and I meet the points of which your asking for. I believe the Bible makes a few contradictions here and there, but I believe that you are speaking of the Book of Revelations which I believe whole heartedly.
Posted by CentristX 3 years ago
To all, one more thing. The Con must be prepared to argue with Biblical evidence (or even just logic) that the Pope is NOT the anti-Christ. Any other use of evidence suggesting another specific person should be and will be considered extraneous.

The first commenter, @jp_ might be just too under-qualified.
I am leaning towards choosing Geogreer, because he seems to be the one that is wanted to be chosen.
Posted by Geogeer 3 years ago
Apparently I've been summoned...

I'm unapologetically Catholic. I believe in the bible, but not Sola Scriptura (I wouldn't exactly be Catholic if I believed in Sola Scriptura).

I've never actually debated a topic like this before, but that is what makes it fun.

I'm a bit busy, but I will accept it within a few days if you choose to debate me.

@ Mikal - the papacy has been accused of being the anti-Christ since the time of Luther - as a former Calvanist I'd be very surprised if you hadn't at least heard this. Whore of Babylon, the little beast with two horns that talks like a lamb, etc...
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Domr 3 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Major Points dropped by Pro hurt the case. Con gave sufficient evidence of three possible anti-christs.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: pro dropped many many points, and lannan's pictures helped a lot for us to understand his arguments