The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
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The Contender
OpheliasWaters
Con (against)
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The Problem With Faith: Religion Is Destroying Humanity: The illusion of love.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/9/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 438 times Debate No: 115326
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (32)
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backwardseden

Pro

Taken from http://churchandstate.org.uk... "The Problem With Faith: 11 Ways Religion Is Destroying Humanity"

The illusion of love.

Is it? There may be some parts that describe love and encourage positive relationships amongst members of the human race; but, what about all the other parts? Are we to ignore some things and only identify with the good?

Here is the problem: Many of our most revered religious texts have hundreds of verses where the deity of the story literally instructs people to abduct and rape young girls whose family members they have just murdered, kill disobedient children, kill disobedient women, commit genocide and infanticide, subdue and silence women, commit incest, oppress mass communities, force marriage on rape victims, torture people, enslave people and loot and pillage entire societies. All by the instruction of or in the name of their god.

Here is the bigger problem: It"s one thing that these words are written, but it is a terrifying thought that many people in this world actually excuse this behavior simply because a god they worship did it or authorized it. They rationalize that this behavior is acceptable if an all knowing being approves it or that their god was punishing "sinful" people who did not agree with the same teachings they follow. This enables atrocious people to justify inhumane actions if they commit those actions in the name of their god. Many even go as far as to change the meaning of the (quite plainly written words) to mean something else than what is written outright in order to justify the action, rather than facing the reality of what their text is actually communicating.

If a human being were to commit these same types of offenses as listed above, we would label them sadistically insane and sentence them to death; yet, many dismiss the corrupt nature of these horrifically unethical crimes when it applies to a deity.

In their defense, many people are raised with their religious background and taught that it is completely about love. At the same time, the religious leaders that instruct them do not even attempt to discuss the negative characteristics of their text. Often, when they do, it is glossed over and never given full thought as to the magnitude of what is being described. If we really thought about it, we would be able to draw the same conclusions for the wrongdoings of our man-made deities as we do for those human beings who choose to commit similar hideous acts.

Instead, the most horrific parts of our text are ignored " or sugar-coated " and then wrapped in an illusion and fed to the people in a mental package labeled "god is love". It is not love; and it skews our interpretation of love when we agree that sadistic and violent acts against people are justified because a god instructed those actions.

A scenario to consider: Suppose you were to have a serious conversation with a parent who told you that, since their child did not obey, love and trust them " they were going to take the child to the basement and burn him until he learned his lesson. Would you turn that parent in to child protective services for potential child abuse? If you heard or read that some parent had tortured their child for not behaving, what would you think of that parent. How would you feel for the child who endured that punishment? Of course you would turn the parent in; of course you would feel awful to hear about such a tragic story! You would want to protect the child because you know that no loving human being would ever do that to their child, no matter how awful they"ve behaved.

Yet, children across the world are forced to endure hideous mental intrusions on a consistent basis in one of our world"s largest belief structures. If they do not believe in their religious deity, he will take them down to hell and torture them forever and ever. They will live in a place of fear and anguish for eternity.

If you would not threaten this to your own child as a punishment you personally would inflict upon them, why tell them someone else will? Is it acceptable because it is not you who will do it?

Another scenario to consider: If your friend told you that she was raped and that her rapist paid her Father for the injustice and is now forcing her to marry the person who raped her, what would you tell your friend? Would you encourage her to follow through with the marriage or would you encourage her leave both the rapist and her Father behind and move on with her life? Would you help her find a safe place to go in order to flee the situation? Or, would you encourage her to follow through with the dreadful plans? Of course you would discourage your friend from following through with such a horrible situation for her life. You would likely even encourage her to file charges against the perpetrator.

Yet, this is the exact instructions found in one of our world"s most popular holy text. One of many scriptures only recently coming to the forefront of religious debates as countless people are becoming more aware of the unethical ideas written in many of our ancient books. (See Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If you have to explain or justify why a horrible atrocity was committed by the deity you worship; what does love really mean to you? Love is"
------------------------
This is me backwardseden.... Let's look at that last question, but first * Deuteronomy 22: 28-29 as the article posed is "Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered, 29 he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver.[a] Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives." First of all you have a dominate male figure sneaking around with someone who is young, probably in her teens or of lesser age, which right there is against god's law, oh but wait if they are NOT discovered this male dominate figure has the right to continue to rape someone who is "young"? But if discovered, he must pay the daddy 50 pieces of silver. What if this scum doesn't have it? What then? Anyway... Oh I get it so the rapist is supposed to marry the young woman BECAUSE HE VIOLATED HER. Wow what a great law. So the scum of the earth, the male chauvinist pig has everything going for him, all the rights in the world, and the YOUNG VIRGIN has 0 which allows the MAN to continue to keep on raping her for the rest of their lives. What a great god. Yippee.

Here's some more verses of god's underlying love. (I will be using the KJV)
* Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Now here's the NLT of the same verse "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." The word "homosexuality" was not put into any bible until 1946. So don't tell me or anyone that people do not change the bible to suit their wants, needs and desires which is an A+ reason why god, in which nobody can even prove exists, would ---ever--- use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible.

* god wants you to die in his bible if you break the sabbath Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

* god issues death warrants on those that curse at their parents (they are probably children) Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death." Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:" Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." Matthew 10:21 "And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

* god wants to put you to death in his bible if you commit adultery Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

* god hates anyone that blasphemes and wants to put you to death Leviticus 24:16 "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death."

All of those verses, except for the first, taken from the article, are taken from the 10 commandments. Do you think you should be put---to---death for cursing at your parents, for working on the sabbath, for committing adultery, for blaspheme? Y____? N____? Why? Why Not? Your god thinks you should. After all cursing at your parents is repeated AT LEAST 5 fricken times in his bible. Oh but wait, what if its the reverse? What if your parents rape, beat, and torture you which is what happens most of this time. Oh nothing happens to them then. That"s according to YOUR bible. Indeed YOUR god truly hates children as there are many other verses that surely proves this. Ah yes, god's paltry book of "love". Right?

Now if you can honestly justify god as a supreme deity of "love", then you have not read your bible. Nor do you know the meaning of the word "love".

dsjpk5 will not be able to vote in the voting process
OpheliasWaters

Con

Firstly, the main flaw in your argument is that one of these religions that you are criticizing may in fact be correct. Since such matters are beyond conceivable evidence, we cannot rule it out, especially in a philosophical argument.

Secondly, religions have also united the world far more than divided it; the Holy Roman Empire for example, brought together many minor nation's with a wide variety of cultures which would have led to conflict in all likelihood, if it were not for sharing a religious bond.

Lastly, if you are in fact correct, how do you propose that religion be abolished. It is impossible to monitor belief, and religious groups all over the world would unite against you. To eliminate religion you would have to commit monstrosities that would make the Spanish Inquisition or Islamic State seem like playground bullies. In doing this you would also cause the rise of many zealous and fanatical demagogues, going off on crusades or jihads against "non-believers".

I hope that you now see the error of your ways and keep a more open mind in the future.

Yours,
Solomon
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"Firstly, the main flaw in your argument is that one of these religions that you are criticizing may in fact be correct." Which one? The Fuzzy wuzzy nano technology bumble bee tuna furry tongue piranha gives b.j.'s hour? "Since such matters are beyond conceivable evidence," You don't have ANY evidence for ANY religion. "we" whoa there barf bag toy boy, who is this "we"? Um no. Its just you all tangled up in your twine of little box that you left behind for your kitty to snivel up.

"Secondly, religions have also united the world far more than divided it;" Oh really? Strange isn't it that religion is the #1 cause of war, hate, death, greed, violence, hate, bloodshed - just about every bad term you can think of religion is right at the top. "More people have dined in the name of god than for any other reason." George Carlin. And he's 100% correct. Religion goes to war in the name of religion all the time. You cannot find one, not one major war where atheism has fought over atheism.

"Lastly, if you are in fact correct, how do you propose that religion be abolished." That's a very good, well you didn't put a question mark beside it, but who knows? One thing that is for sure is that unless religion ---all of it--- is abolished, there can be no worldwide peace. "and religious groups all over the world would unite against you." actually against each other just as they have in the past, just as they are doing so now. "To eliminate religion you would have to commit monstrosities..." religion is a monstrosity. I've read enough. You clearly know nothing about religion.
OpheliasWaters

Con

Religion is very rarely the cause of conflict, more often it is used to justify war when in fact the true cause is something else entirely.
Also, I never said we, but if I had it would most likely be referring to myself and the rest of the literate world. You are in no position to criticize my grammar, your argument is an affront to the English language.

Based upon the fact that you have diverged from the original debate so much, I take it you have nothing constructive to add and have therefore already lost.

Yours,
Solomon
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Here"s how I run things" if there is the slightest hint of you inventing excuses from something in which you clearly know nothing about, especially when its the subject in which you claim to professing you have knowledge upon, namely this one, and you really don"t, and yet you pretend that you do by coming up with invented excuses and or flat out lying, I will insult you with my brand of insults that are original, funny, stupid, deranged and walls to the ball insane, unless those excuses are so far fetched that they are clearly pulled off from your groin to be a groin pull from the gold-i-lox area to keep scientists looking for other planets, then all bets are truly off and I may end the debate right then and there because I DO KNOW my stuff, whereas most don"t. So since you screwed up so badly within your most recent RD, I don't even know if I'm going to bother giving you the normal 3 strikes rule. I may just end it. You really are an idiot.
"Religion is very rarely the cause of conflict," That's strike umpteen. Let's just take christianity...
* god hates gays in his bible and wants them stoned to death LV 20:13 proving god hates,is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god hates anyone that blasphemes and wants to put you to death LV 24:16 which is true 100% hate and evil and nothing but and shows that god is nothing but hate and evil.
* god hates anyone that does not believe in him in his bible 2 CHR 15: 12-13, ESPECIALLY if someone worships another god/ idols other than himself, thus wants to kill them DT 13: 9-10 and 17: 2-5 proving god hates, is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god endorses slavery in his bible EX 21 the entire chapter especially 20-21 which is truly sick and disgusting, LV 25:39, LV 25:42, LV 25: 44-46, DT 15: 12-15, DT 23: 14-16, MT 18:25, proving god hates, is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god gets jealous in his bible EX 20: 3-5, EX 34:14, DT 4: 23-24, DT 32: 16-17, DT 5:9, DT 6:15, JH 24:19, PS 79:5, PS 78:58, 2 COR 1:2, proving that he is evil, hates and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god wants you to die in his bible if you break the sabbath EX 31:14, NU 15: 32-36 proving god hates and is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god issues death warrants on those that curse at their parents (they are probably children) EX 21:17, LV 20:9, MK 7:10, MT 15:4 proving god hates and is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god wants to put you to death in his bible if you commit adultery LV 20:10 proving god hates, is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god has freely admitted in his bible numerous times that he IS evil IS 45:7, 2 SAM 12: 11-14 sick and disgusting, EX 32:14, 1 KS 1 22: 22-23, 2 CR 18:22, JM 19:3, JM 19:15, JM 23:12, AM 3:6, DT 30:15, 2 KS 22:16, JU 9:23, PV 15:3 thus proving that he IS evil which is irrefutable and also proves he hates and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god in his bible knowingly and truly hates children through numerous passages such as LM4: 9-11, MT 10:37, MT 2:16, JG 21:10, 2 SAM 12:11-14 which is truly sick and disgusting, DT 2:34, NU 31: 17-18, LV 26: 21-22, 1 SAM 15:3, HS 13:16, 2 KS 15:16, EZ 9: 5-7, HS 9: 11-16, EX 12: 29-30, IS 13: 15-18, MT 2:16, (EX 21:17, LV 20:9, MK 7:10, MT 15:4, MT 10:21), JG 11: 30-33, PS 137: 8-9, 2 KS 6: 28-29, DT 21: 18-21, DT 32:25, DT 2: 32-34, DT 3: 3-6, JG 19: 24-29, EX 12:29, 2 HS 2: 23-24, LV 26:29, JM 11: 22-23, JM 19: 7-9, JM 51: 22-26, 2 KS 8: 9-15,LM 2: 20-22, RV 2: 18-23 only to name a few proves god hates and is 100% pure evil and 100% proves he cannot be involved with love.
* god hates women in his bible LM 4 9-11 sick and disgusting, HS 13:16 sick and disgusting, JD 21:10, 2 SAM 12 11-14 sick and disgusting, DT 2:34, NU 31 17:18, LV 26 21:22, 1 SAM 15:3, HS 13:16 sick and disgusting, DT 2 32-34, 2 KS 8: 9-15, 2 KS 15:16 sick and disgusting, EZ 9: 5-7, HS 9: 11-16, 2 KS 6: 28-29 sick and disgusting, JD 19: 24-29, LM 2 20-22 sick and disgusting, 1 COR 14:34,1 TY 2:12 proves god hates, is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god loves rape in his bible NU 31: 17-18, 2 SAM 12: 11-18 sick and disgusting, JD 19:24-29, JD 21: 10-24, DT 20: 10-14, DT 22: 28-29, DT 21: 10-14, JD 5:30, EX 21 7-11, ZE 14: 1-2 proving that he is evil, pure evil and nothing but, is filled with hate and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god commits abortions who knows how many times within several verses in his bible, so that means that christians do not follow their god which is extremely hypocritical and contradictory from his bible HS 13:16 sick and disgusting, 2 KS 8: 9-15 sick and disgusting, 2 HS 15:16 sick and disgusting, HS 9: 11-16, and perhaps the biggest acts of abortions were committed in the great flood according to this so-called god of the bible in the great flood (which never happened btw) so who knows how many pregnant mothers died there in his bible thus proving this god to be nothing but pure evil, hate and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god loves yummy cannibalism in his bible LM 2: 20-22, JM 11: 22-23, LV 26:29, 2 KS 6:28-29, LM 4: 9-11, proving this god to be truly sick and completely whacked out thus is evil, hates,and thus cannot be involved with love..
* Indeed god is far far far worse than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hong Xiuquan, all serial killers, all rapists, all tortures, all pedophiles, all sadomasochists etc etc etc combined. After all god knowingly created them which means that he is ultimately responsible for them. Its either that or god is not a god and lets them off the hook with nothing but a tap on the shoulder for their horrific, disgusting, repugnant crimes and simply god---does---not---care. Now here's some examples of god"s sickened, diseased, abominable atrocities for absolutely no reason at all... the great flood according to the bible (which never happened btw) so who knows what the body count was there? 3,000 EX 32:27-28, 14,700 NU 16:49, 24,002 NU 25: 1-11, 12,000 JOS 8: 1-25, 10,000 JG 1:4, 120,000 JG 8:7-10, 42,000 JG 12:3-6, 1,000 JD 15:14-15, 3,000 JD 16:27-30, 25,101 JD 16:27-30, 1 SAM 4 34,002, 1 SAM 6:19 50,070, 2 SAM 8 65,850, 1 KI 20: 28-29 100,000, 1 KI 20: 30 27,000, 2 KI 19 35 -37 185,000, 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 2 CHR 28:6 120,000, Esther 9:5-18 75,813, 2 CHR 14: 9-14 1,000,000!!! etc etc etc Yeah god is really so moral huh? Nope.

OK I'm ending this. You did say "we". Sheesh.
There's a very big difference between you and me... I can back up what I say with solid evidence. You cannot. You babble into oblivion with no reference points. And if you continue to do this then you are going to get squashed every single time, no exceptions, none. This also means that I will be ignoring your posts. You had your chance. You blew it. Bye.
OpheliasWaters

Con

You have only aided my case that a revised version of the Bible should be made. You also seem to have a lot of pent up hate within you as well, and, by your own diagnosis, must therefore be a creature of pure evil with no love. I do not need evidence for my argument as I needn't bother do any more than highlight the amorality of your points.
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

That is how the bible is made you squeezable pent up pillow fluffy tinker toy. Oh wowzers, telling me I have pent up hate, the only out you christians have, thus proving your god, and you have nothing else to offer unto this world. Great going! Keep up the good work. Maybe some day you will move past your shadowy eyes.
OpheliasWaters

Con

I'm having difficulty with my response as I don't have a clue what you tried to say. I used your own argument of hate against you, then you criticized it? I don't know what you mean by moving past my own eyes, and you have revealed that you hate all Christians.
This was a debate about whether or not religion was damaging to humanity, but you've spent the whole thing slagging off Christians.

Yours,
Solomon
Debate Round No. 4
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by backwardseden 3 months ago
backwardseden
@asta - then if you identify with some of the things that god did as being "good", then that makes you agnostic, not an atheist. And god can simply talk to man and not use text, this god of the bible would ---never--- use text for probably a good 50 reasons or better if reasonably intelligent, in which he clearly wasn't, in which nobody can prove he ever existed in the first place. But since you have your doubts, you are clearly not an atheist.
Posted by OpheliasWaters 3 months ago
OpheliasWaters
Do you have a laptop or computer?
Posted by asta 3 months ago
asta
Even if I am an atheist, I can still justify some of the things G-d did.

You said that G-d should not have used text. "G-d's" prophets didn't have computers or translate.

P.S. How do I vote? I have a phone brand they won't accept.
Posted by OpheliasWaters 3 months ago
OpheliasWaters
With who?
Posted by AKMath 3 months ago
AKMath
Can we do debate on gun control/abortion/evil? Can you invite me to a debate with you?
Posted by backwardseden 3 months ago
backwardseden
@asta - Well first you have to prove that god even exists to say that. But then again with this printed superior superior ego god's complex, he'd want to get his word out as best possible since this printed word screams of superior ego complex and nothing but as that is what the bible and its printed god is all about. Yeah right, this supposed god would ---never--- communicate i text form, the worst form of communication, for that reason + so many others.
Posted by backwardseden 3 months ago
backwardseden
@Percivil - Typical idiot moron christian that cannot read for any reason at all. Obviously does not know what reading is. Awe gosh golly gee gosh darned it all, I posted over 100 verses of YOUR god's 100% pure hate. You lose. And so does everybody for believing in that thing in which you cannot even prove even exists, namely YOUR god in which specifically hates children. There. Happy? No of course not. Because you like so many here are never happy. And you like so many here do not have any genuine friends or loved ones. What do I mean by genuine? Those that will go way way wayyyyyy out of their way to help you out in time of dire need and never ask you a single question. For that I cannot even pity you. But you did it to yourself. You deserve it. You will die alone with your self true saddened pity.
Posted by OpheliasWaters 3 months ago
OpheliasWaters
He can, I know several people who take the Bible as a metaphor, just stories which only serve to teach a lesson, like moral stories parents read to children.
Posted by asta 3 months ago
asta
Lets say that there are 2 baseball teams: Team Red and Team Blue.

The Coach for Team Red is very competitive. He says, "We're gonna KILL blue out there! We're going to destroy them, were gonna SLAUGHTER them." Is he being serious, or metaphorical? If he can be metaphorical, why can't G-d be metaphorical too?
Posted by OpheliasWaters 3 months ago
OpheliasWaters
I doubt he will finish the debate though, so he has forced a stalemate.
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