The Instigator
muslimnomore
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Tiimow
Con (against)
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0 Points

The Qur'an is not a miracle

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/2/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,103 times Debate No: 39861
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
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muslimnomore

Pro

I will try to demonstrate that the Qur'an is not a miracle. It is not a linguistic miracle, a scientific miracle, a mathematical miracle, or any kind of miracle. A miracle here can be defined as an act that can only be performed by a supernatural and inifintely intelligent being.
My arguments are outlined in this video which is not my work:
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Tiimow

Con

Dear Pro, I accept your challenge "The Quran is not a miracle."
I oppose my opponent by saying the Quran IS a miracle. I know that many people are with the Pro, however I'm going to state my opinion.
First of all, the Quran is a revelation from Allah, it was revealed to Prophet Mohammed by the angel Gabriel. It is the words of Allah.

It is a miracle because:

- It is eloquent, people of that time who opposed the Prophet Mohammed were challenged to write/create a verse that is similar to it, but of course they couldn't, because it's a miracle. The guy in the video said no one can write exactly like Shakespeare or whoever, but someone can write with the same level of eloquence. However, no one can write with the same level of eloquence of the holy Quran, even if they were Arabic. The guy also mentions that not everyone talks with Arabic and that's why they can't write something similar to the Quran. Nevertheless, The Quran is Arabic because it was sent to Arabic people, Mohammed was Arabic, of course it would be in Arabic. Also, Arabic was a language that a LOT of people talked with. That also doesn't mean that the Quran was sent ONLY for Arabs.

- It contains scientific facts. For example, it is said in the Quran that parts of the sea/ocean does not mix, "Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses." [Quran 55:20]. It's also mentioned that the sun does move, "And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point." [Quran 36:38]. Oh and the gravity is mentioned, when did newton think about it? in 1600s. There are a LOT more scientific facts in Holy Quran.

- It tells things that are yet to happen/unseen. For instance, telling that the Romans will defeat the Persians. A few years after the severe defeat of the Byzantine armies by the Persians, this verse was revealed in the Quran, "The Romans have been defeated. In a land close by; but they will soon be victorious-Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice."[Quran 30:2-4] In 622 AD at the Battle of Issus, the Romans successfully defeated the Persians, confirming the prophecy in the Quran.

I would also like to say that the guy in the video said that Muslims themselves don't believe things in the Quran. How did he know? he heard one or two misguided Muslims claiming that? did he ask every single Muslim is the world and they all said yeah we don't believe?
Debate Round No. 1
muslimnomore

Pro

It is eloquent, people of that time who opposed the Prophet Mohammed were challenged to write/create a verse that is similar to it, but of course they couldn't, because it's a miracle. The guy in the video said no one can write exactly like Shakespeare or whoever, but someone can write with the same level of eloquence. However, no one can write with the same level of eloquence of the holy Quran, even if they were Arabic. The guy also mentions that not everyone talks with Arabic and that's why they can't write something similar to the Quran. Nevertheless, The Quran is Arabic because it was sent to Arabic people, Mohammed was Arabic, of course it would be in Arabic. Also, Arabic was a language that a LOT of people talked with. That also doesn't mean that the Quran was sent ONLY for Arabs.


1) Let's say that I told you that there was a man who lived in Pakistan and that he had received from God, poems that were better than any poem ever written. Then I told you that this was evidence that he received these poems from a supernatural being who created everything. You would not accept this as evidence that this was proof f the Creator's existence because:
a) it is difficult to objectively judge or even set criteria for judging poetry. an arabic/urdu song may bring a person to tears because of their personal experiences, and the quran's stories may not moove them at all because they cannot relate to them.

b) a superior-seeming poem could just as well be the work of an intelligent alien species. just because a work does not seem human, does not mean it was necessarily written by a god. there are other options so this is not 100% proof of god's existence.

- It contains scientific facts. For example, it is said in the Quran that parts of the sea/ocean does not mix, "Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses." [Quran 55:20]. It's also mentioned that the sun does move, "And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point." [Quran 36:38]. Oh and the gravity is mentioned, when did newton think about it? in 1600s. There are a LOT more scientific facts in Holy Quran.

Funny that you should mention the verses about the setting place of the sun as evidence of the Quran's scientific miracles. In fact, the Quran makes the egregious error of stating that the sun sets in a pool of muddy water. Please look at the video in here. Btw, I am not a christian but I think this guy does a great job explaining how the quran makes an error here.

Also the fact that there are different bodies of water that do not mix, is a directly observable fact, and the scientific method is not required to make this observation.



- It tells things that are yet to happen/unseen. For instance, telling that the Romans will defeat the Persians. A few years after the severe defeat of the Byzantine armies by the Persians, this verse was revealed in the Quran, "The Romans have been defeated. In a land close by; but they will soon be victorious-Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice."[Quran 30:2-4] In 622 AD at the Battle of Issus, the Romans successfully defeated the Persians, confirming the prophecy in the Quran.

I predicted that the Iraq war would be a huge disaster. I predicted correctly that the rate of inflation in Pakistan would all but eliminate any semblance of a middle class. I predicted that kobe and shaq would win lots of championships together. The bible has many predictions within it. Hindu scriptures are littered with 'prophecies' that have more or less come true. There are many people who make predictions, and in one way or another these predictions come true. This is not proof that a God revealed these scriptures, just like my predictions being true does not mean that I have the ability to see the future. The fact of the matter is predictions are just predictions.

What's troubling though, is that Muhammad made a lot of incorrect predictions as well. Theyare outliend in the link below (I am not a huge fan of this website, because it does not scrutinize bible verses with the same standars as quranic verses, but they do an excellent job refuting islamic claims: http://www.answering-islam.org... )


I would also like to say that the guy in the video said that Muslims themselves don't believe things in the Quran. How did he know? he heard one or two misguided Muslims claiming that? did he ask every single Muslim is the world and they all said yeah we don't believe?

I do not think he was talking about EVERY muslim the world, since he didn't go out of his way to say this. I guess he could have been more specific but I don't think any reasonable person would conclude that this guy was talking about every single muslim.

Tiimow

Con

You are not Arabic, and you don't speak Arabic. If you could, you would find the Quran miraculous. You only read the translation of it, which does not show the perfection of it, and which sometimes is not translated right. It is ironic that you post those videos as if they were your opinion. Oh and you believe what they say which makes no sense. "Better than any poem ever written" does not mean that there is no one that can compose something even better, because they are humans after all. EVERY single piece of writing can be re-composed, but not the Quran. Even the Bible/Torah or any religious book is not as eloquent. You might not feel the eloquence because you can't speak Arabic. If someone can compose something that is as eloquent as Quran then you can say it is not a miracle. I challenge anyone to do that. The most eloquent Arabic-speaker in the world would not be able to!

There are more and more scientific facts, if these do not convince you. But what's the point in saying them? you would deny that they are elements that makes the Quran miraculous because you're convinced by the opinions of these guys in the videos that the Quran is not a miracle. The Quran was revealed in the 7th century, and scientists explored the same facts way later. It is not only about the scientific facts but also that they were revealed at a time when science was not at its best. Then what about the movement of the Earth, the split of the moon which scientists assured there is a mark that it split, the darkness in the seas, I don't think someone could explore/acknowledge these facts at that time, except the one who CREATED the universe - Allah. Oh, if the fact that the bodies of the water don't mix why didn't scientists discover this earlier?

Sorry, but the URL you provided is blocked in my country, therefore I could not look at the information. However, I would like you to provide me with a few of Prophet Mohammed's predictions (which are not predictions but revealed facts) you claim are incorrect.
You are saying that the events that are told in the Holy Quran are predictions! Dude, they are NOT predictions, they are facts that are told by Allah. He knows them because he is the creator of us, he knows what will happen to every single person, every single creature I should say. predictions you say? He is not predicting, he is telling. He told Muslims that they will open Mecca, and they did.
Since you brought up Prophet Mohammed, I would like to give examples of correct facts revealed by him. Of course Prophet Mohammed would not know them by himself, but Allah revealed them for him by revelation. Prophet Mohammed told that Constantinople will be opened/conquered by Muslims at some point, which happened in the era of the Ottoman Empire. Also, before Prophet Mohammed died, he told his daughter Fatima that she will be the next one to die from his family, and that happened, and a lot more.
Debate Round No. 2
muslimnomore

Pro

You are not Arabic, and you don't speak Arabic. If you could, you would find the Quran miraculous.

Is this supposed to support your arguments? Because it seems that only arabs who are masters of 7th century arabic should be convinced that the Quran is a miracle by this logic. Everyone whould learn Arabic before they accept islam as their religion. Unfortunately for you, most muslims don't speak arabic either. So this quranic challenge does not seem to be very well thought out by the All-wise Allah.



EVERY single piece of writing can be re-composed, but not the Quran. Even the Bible/Torah or any religious book is not as eloquent.

What is your evidence for this? Who judges whether or not a piece of writing has been re-composed? Do you know what re-composed means? "Compose again or differently." Are you saying that the Quran cannot be re-written or or written in a different way? Both of those are laughably incorrect statements.

There are more and more scientific facts, if these do not convince you. But what's the point in saying them?

Perhaps I won't be convinced because I already demonstrated that these 'miracles' are actually egergious scientific errors. And the point would be to convince people reading the debate, not me.

The Quran was revealed in the 7th century, and scientists explored the same facts way later.
No proof given for this statement. Not surprised because anyone can easily do their research and find out that such claims are patently untrue.

the split of the moon which scientists assured there is a mark that it split

I had hoped that there would be some intelligent people using this website. So far, I haven't seen many. If there are some I hope that they will clearly see how ridiculous and untrue this unsubstantiated claim is. Thanks for posting.

Sorry, but the URL you provided is blocked in my country, therefore I could not look at the information. However, I would like you to provide me with a few of Prophet Mohammed's predictions (which are not predictions but revealed facts) you claim are incorrect.


Not surprised that a website criticising islam would be banned in a muslim country. No wonder people there believe as you do. In any case one clear example is the fact that in 48:27 the quran claims that the Muslims would perform hajj with peace of mind after the treaty of hudaibiyah. But this was clearly not the case according to books of the seerah such as ibn ishaq's sirat rasulullah and also according to Tabari, which describes that one of the mulsims Abu Jandal was harrassed and this caused dejection amongst the muslims. This is an example of a prophecy being proven false almost immediately after it was made.

You are saying that the events that are told in the Holy Quran are predictions! Dude, they are NOT predictions, they are facts that are told by Allah. He knows them because he is the creator of us, he knows what will happen to every single person, every single creature I should say. predictions you say? He is not predicting, he is telling. He told Muslims that they will open Mecca, and they did.

The Quran was not written by a supernatural being called Allah. So, you are wrong. And the Muslims 'opening' mecca was not a difficult prediction to make considering the level of violence the muslims were indulging in with mass killings, ambushing and night-time attacks on their sleeping enemies.


Since you brought up Prophet Mohammed, I would like to give examples of correct facts revealed by him. Of course Prophet Mohammed would not know them by himself, but Allah revealed them for him by revelation. Prophet Mohammed told that Constantinople will be opened/conquered by Muslims at some point, which happened in the era of the Ottoman Empire. Also, before Prophet Mohammed died, he told his daughter Fatima that she will be the next one to die from his family, and that happened, and a lot more.

First of all, these prophecies are not outlined in the quran but in the ahadith, so this is completely off-topic. Please provide the source of the prophecy regarding Fatimah. I am not certain that this is a sahih hadith. Furthermore, I demonstrated that all of these 'prophecies' are more likely to be guesses that came true since this happens all the time. Prophecies have not just been made in the Quran. Many other religions claim the same thing about their scriptures. Should we believe that Hindu scriptures are divine because they have prophecies that people can argue came true?

To conclude:
You argued that since I don't speak arabic (which is not true since I can read and write arabic, speak it to some extent, have taken introductory classes in quranic arabic and tafseer when i was muslim and afterwards as well, and am fluent in urdu which is derived in part from arabic) I will never appreciate the miraculous nature of the Quran. This is a point that goes against you. Because by this logic, only arabic speakers should be convinced that the quran is a miracle and the vast majority of humanity should not believe in this claim, and the miraculous nature of the quran should not be used as a tool for da'wah to non-arabic speakers.

You failed to demonstrate, or even reference verses that illustrate the sientific miracles of the quran.

You did not understand my point regarding the idea that it is impossible to judge the beauty of the language of a passage without being subjective. Beauty does lie in the ey of the beholder.

You ignored my point regarding the fact that the Quran designates a setting place for the sun, and you demonstrasted that you believe that this is a scientific miracle. The truth is that the sun does not 'set' anywhere (definitely not in a pool of muddy water), it stays in the centre of the solar system. Either you have a very poor knowledge of astronomy or you a very bad command of the English language if you thought this was a point for and not against your arguments.

Thanks for the debate. It was more frustrating than rewarding, but I was bored and it passed the time.


Tiimow

Con

Dear opponent, you are convinced that the Quran is not a miracle, and your mind wouldn't accept otherwise because it is what you want to believe. My reasons do not convince you, as yours do not convince me too. You might think that my arguments are unreasonable, but that's how I feel about your arguments too.
There is no proof of Muslims' violence and mass killing.

"so this is completely off-topic."
I know it is off-topic but brought it up since you brought it up first by saying "What's troubling though, is that Muhammad made a lot of incorrect predictions as well."
The Hadith regarding Fatima is from Sahih al-Bukhari:
http://sunnah.com...

There are points that I did not respond to. There is no point in arguing this matter. As Allah said in the Holy Quran:
"And We have certainly diversified in this Qur'an for the people from every [kind of] example; but man has ever been, most of anything, [prone to] dispute." [18:54]

I apologize for frustrating you. However, what is more frustrating is that you once were a Muslim. Since Muslims are like brothers and sisters, we lost a brother. I hope you won't have to regret that you left Islam (which I think you will)

Your arguments did not convince me, did not make me think, and did not refute my arguments.

I thank my opponent for his efforts.
Good luck.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by muslimnomore 3 years ago
muslimnomore
i can read the quran in its original language. i've studied quranic arabic. i can construct simple sentences in arabic. i am fluent in the urdu language so reading arabic is not a problem with me and i am familiar with many words and the basics of the sentence structure. i don't make assumptions about people i dont know like you do, but i will say that you probably don't have as much of the qur'an memorized as i do.
Posted by IslamAhmadiyya 3 years ago
IslamAhmadiyya
You again? How can you say the Qur'an isn't a miracle if you cannot even read it in the original language?

Your entire argument is based off translations my friend, sorry but that's a big no no.
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