The Instigator
Wandile
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
Rasheed
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Qur'an is not the word of God

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
Wandile
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/14/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,488 times Debate No: 19859
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

Wandile

Pro

I wish to debate an esteemed and well informed opponent, Rasheed. I know that this debate will be extremely challenging and very informative. it will be an honor to debate him again if he accepts this challenge.

RULES :

1- All sources must be referenced and currently functional.
2- Respect must be upheld at ALL times.
3- Plagiarism will result In automatic defeat.
4- Round 1 is acceptance, amendments to rules and opening statements only.
5- Rounds 2-4 will be rebuttal rounds.

OPENING STATEMENT :

The Quran is not the word of God as muslims claim. The Quran contains numerous errors across several fields study. It also contains a number of irreconcilable contradictions within itself.
Rasheed

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for his debate challenge and I humbly accept.

Because the Glorious Qu'ran is read and understood in Arabic I would request that any verse that is under contention takes into account that many words translated into English loses much of its meaning.

The burden of proof is on PRO. I look forward to his opening arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Wandile

Pro

The Qur'an is believed by muslims to be the infallible word of God. However such a book would need to be without any error. It should be historically and scientifically (only factual science not theoretical) accurate. Such a book should also bear no contradictions within itself. Let's see if the Qur'an meets these requirements.

1- THE QUR'AN IN THE LIGHT OF HISTORY

Once one begins to read the Qur'an, one will notice the apparent historical errors. Here are some examples :

#The Qur'an confuses Mary the sister of moses and Aaron with Mary the mother of Jesus. It states that Mary the mother of Jesus was the sister of Aaron ,the brother of Moses :

"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" (Surah 16:28)

If one reads further, one will understand/realize that Surah 16:28 was speaking about Mary the mother of Jesus :

"Such [was] Jesus the son of Mary : [it is] a statement of truth, about which the vainly dispute..." (Surah 19:34)

"And Mary, daughter of Imran, whose body was chaste, therefore We breathed therein something of our spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient." (Surah 66:12)

The problem with this is that Aaron who was brother of Moses was not the sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus, because Mary existed thousands of years later and she was also NOT the daughter of Imran.

#The Qur'an denies the historical event of the crucifixion of Jesus which is supported not only by the bible, but outside sources from the first 3 centuries AD

Some surahs tell us that Jesus died but some deny the death of Jesus on the cross. We read :

"So peace is on the day I [Jesus] was born, the day that I die and the day that I shall rise to life [again]." (Surah 19:33)

Now look at this :

"They said [in boast] , "we killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them and those who therein are full of doubts, with no [certain] knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not."

2- THE QUR'AN IN THE LIGHT OF SCIENCE

The Qur'an is guilty of getting some of the simplest scientific facts wrong.

#The Qur'an relates the story of Alexander the Great (Dhu'l-Qarneyn). In conveying the story , the Qur'an gives credence to the outrageous superstition that the sun sets in a puddle of mud :

"They will ask of Dhu'l-Qarneyn. Say : I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him. Lo! We made him strong in the land and gave him every thing a road. And he followed a road till, where he reached the setting place of the sun, and found people thereabout..." (Surah 18:84-92)

"He journeyed on a certain road until he reached the west and saw the sun setting in a pool of black mud. Hand by he found certain people..." (Surah 18:86)

Now many muslim apologists try to argue that this passage is being figurative or describing the scenery but this can't be. The passage is clearly writing historically about Alexander the Great and telling a particular story about an alleged journey of his. It says he journeyed to where the sun sets and that the sun sets in a POOL OF BLACK MUD. Also that he found people at the setting place of the sun! First of all the sun is in space NOT on earth in a muddy pool! Secondly it is IMPOSSIBLE to get within 1000miles of the sun without being melted by the heat. Yet the Qur'an blatantly states that Alexander found people at the setting place of the sun! This is ludicrous! How can a book that is ascribed to an omniscient being contain such erroneous and ridiculous science? Clearly it is from man and not from God.

#The Qur'an says Allah created mountains to prevent convulsion of the earth ( earthquakes) :

"He created the heavens. Without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse you" (Surah 31:10)

"And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and WE made it in wide ways that they may follow a right direction" (surah 21:31)

This appears to be comical science from the Qur'an. These passages definitely seem to be saying that Allah created mountains in order to prevent earthquakes! Does the supposed author of the Qur'an (Allah) not know that mountains are formed as a result of earthquakes? Clearly the Qur'an is from man and not form God.

3- CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QUR'AN

# Who misleads people, Allah or Satan ?

"I will make them, and I will create in them false desires... Satan makes them promises and creates in them false hopes..." (Surah 4:119-120)

"If Allah so willed , He could make you all one people. But He leaves starying whom He pleases and He guides whom He pleases" (Surah 16:93)

#Where does evil come from, Allah or man?

"...if some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee [
O prophet]". Say "All things are from Allah"..." (Surah 4:78)
This verse clearly states that evil and all other things are from Allah

"Whatever good [O man!] Happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself." (An-Nisa 4:79)
This verse says evil is from man!

#Who is to be blames for the wrongs done?

From verse 35:8, 16:93, 74:31, 2:142 we learn that it is Allah who has to be blamed for all the misguidance. While other verses hold man himself responsible for misguidance/wrongs done :

"Allah leaves stray whom He will and guides whom He wills" (Surah 35:8)
Here Allah is to be blamed.

"It was not Allah who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls." (Surah 30:9)
Here man is to be blamed.

#Unbelievers to be persecuted or forgiven?

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth..." (Surah 9:29)
This verse teaches persecution of unbelievers.

"Tell those who believe in, to forgive those who do not hope for the Days of Allah; it is for Him to recompense [for good and evil] each people according to what they have earned." (Surah 45:14)
This verse teaches forgiveness of unbelievers.

#Creation completed in six or eight days?

Surahs 7:54, 10:3, 11:7 and 25:29 clearly say that God created the heavens and the earth in six days :

"Lo! Your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days..." (Surah 7:54)

But then there is this following passage :

"Say : is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO Days. And do you join equals with Him? He is the Lord of [all] the worlds.

He set on the [earth], mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR Days in accordance with the needs of those who seek[sustenance].

So He completed then as even firmaments in TWO Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command..." (Surah 41:9-12)

All together it is ;
TWO Days for the creation of the earth, then FOUR Days to fill the earth with mountains, blessings etc, and then TWO more Days to create the seven heavens. Thus this adds up to :

2+4+2=8days in contradiction to the six days mentioned in the other verses.

These are only scrapes off the surface. There are many more historical and scientific errors as well as contradictions in the Qur'an. Hence the Qur'an is a man made book and is not the word of God.

REFERENCES :

*www.dunner99.blogspot.com/2009/08/my-tafsir-on-surah-fussilat-419-12.html?m=1

*www.https://www.evidenceforchristianity.org...

*www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i010.html

*www.bible-quran.com/

*www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ashraf.html

*www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/
Rasheed

Con


THE QUR'AN IN THE LIGHT OF SCIENCE

My opponent mistakenly argues that the Qur'an says the sun set in a pool of mud. This is why over one
billion Muslims are encouraged to learn Arabic, because it is impossible to read the Qur'an in English, you can only read a translation. Allow me to explain the real meaning of Surah 18:86;

Maghrib al-shams, or the setting place of the sun, signifies the western most point of his
empire, because going towards the west he (Alexander the Great) could not go beyond it.

The words in Arabic are 'ain-in hami'at-in, which literally mean a black sea, 'ain meaning an abundance of water, or a place in which water remains and collects, and hamiat means black mud (Taj al Arus
(Dictionary), by Imama Muhibb al Din Abu I faid Murtada). The place referred to is no other than the Black Sea, as Armenia being within the Kingdom of Persia, the Black Sea formed the north western
boundary of the empire. This is the correct translation of Surah 18:86;

“Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it doing down
int a black sea, and found by it a people...”

No Qur'anic scholar, or speaker of Arabic would translate this Iyat (verse) as black mud.

ROLE OF MOUNTAINS

My opponent offers no scientific evidence when he charges that the Qur'an is incorrect when it says;

"He created the heavens. Without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse you" (Surah 31:10)

Let us look at what scientists say about this Quranic revelation;

“Formerly, it was thought that mountains were merely protrusions rising above the surface of the Earth. However, scientists realised that this was not actually the case, and that those parts known as the mountain root extended down as far as 10-15 times their own height. With these features, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent. For example, Mount Everest, the summit of which stands approximately 9 km above the surface of the Earth, has a root deeper than 125 km." (http://www.miraclesofthequran.com...)

CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QUR'AN?

My opponent believes he has found verses from the Qur'an showing that there is a contradiction between evil coming from Satan or Allah. Good and evil, or benefits and misfortune, proceed from God, but while He sends benefits from Himself, out of His beneficence, no evil or misfortune afflicts a man unless his own hands have called for it. There is no discrepancy in the verses that my opponent cited. One cannot believe in an all powerful Creator but at the same time say that something is out of His control. Ultimately, even the Devil is working for God.

UNBELIEVERS TO BE PERSECUTED OR FORGIVEN?

My opponent part of Surah 9:29 and then pronounces that his means that all Kufars (unbelievers) should be persecuted. What every new reader of the Qur'an must understand is that there is not one verse of the Qu'ran that was written outside of a social set of circumstances that the verse was revealed to correct, so there is a historical perspective for each of them, including Surah 9:29;

“The Campaign to Tabuk was the result of conflict with the Roman Empire, that had started even before the conquest of Makkah. One of the missions sent after the Treaty of Hudaibiyah to different parts of Arabia visited the clans which lived in the northern areas adjacent to Syria. The majority of these people were Christians, who were under the influence of the Roman Empire. Contrary to all the principles of the commonly accepted international law, they killed fifteen members of the delegation near a place known Zat-u-Talah (or Zat-i-Itlah). Only Ka'ab bin Umair Ghifari, the head of the delegation, succeeded in escaping and reporting the sad incident. Besides this, Shurahbll bin Amr, the Christian governor of Busra, who was directly under the Roman Caesar, had also put to death Haritli bin Umair, the ambassador of the Holy Prophet, who had been sent to him on a similar mission. These events convinced the Holy Prophet that a strong action should be taken in order to make the territory adjacent to the Roman Empire safe and secure for the Muslims.”(http://muslim responses.com/Fighting_those_who_dont_Believe_/Fighting_those_who_dont_Believe_)

Because space is limited, I reserve the right to further refute my opponents arguments in later rounds.

PROOF THAT THE QUR'AN IS THE REAL WORD OF GOD


Unlike other so called holy books, who are written by animous authors, the Qur'an was revealed to one man.The speaker in the Qur'an - in the first person - is God talking directly to man. In the Bible you have many men writing about God and you have in some places the word of God speaking to men and still in other places you have some men simply writing about history.

The word 'Qur'an' (meaning recitation) can be found in several places in the Holy Book of Islam, unlike the word 'Bible' which cannot be found anywhere within its covers. The Qur'an not only says that it is from the Most High, but gives clear scientific evidence as proof of its divine revelation, again unique among religious books. I will list a few of the scientific information in the Qur'an for the reader to examine without any commentary, reminding the reader that it was supposedly written by an illiterate desert Arab in the 7th century, and I ask my opponent to produce verses from the Bible that are as accurate as these;

All life comes from water

“Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, so We rent them. And we made from water everything living. Will they not then believe?”
Surah 21:30

Behavior of heavenly bodies

“And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon. All float in orbits.” Surah
21:33

The Big bang

“Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it was a vapour, so He said to it and the earth: Come
both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.”
Surah 41:11

Space Travel

“O assembly of jinn and men, if you are able to pass through the regions of the heavens and the earth
then pass through. You cannot pass through but with authority.”
Surah 55:33

Erosion

“See they not that We are visiting the land, curtailing it of its sides? And Allah pronounces a
doom-there is no repeller of His decree. And He is Swift in calling to account.” Surah 13:41

Expansion of the Universe

“And We have built the heavens with Our own hands; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.” Surah 51:47

Barriers between the oceans

“And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water): this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter; and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.” Surah 25:53

These verses clearly show that a divine author revealed the Qur'an, the only true Word of God. I shall provide more evidence in my next post as well as rebuttals to my opponents arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
Wandile

Pro

I thank my opponent for his response. I apologize for my short rebuttal as I have been short on time lately. Anyway let us investigate the truth in my opponents arguments.

1- DHU'L-QARNEYN

I admit "muddy puddle" was not the best of translations. However here is Surah 18:86 in two of the best English translations of the Qur'an by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Marmaduke Pickthall :

Pickthall : till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found people thereabout...

Yusuf Ali : until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people...

Does the sun really set in a muddy spring? First let us examine the plain meaning of the Surah and then I will explore muslim theories of the surah.

# The plain meaning of the Surah

Under the 'Abbasid Muslim rulers, Arabs and Persians made significant advances in astronomy, naming many stars, as well as copying and correcting Ptolmey's tables. However the sun is always much larger than the entire earth, and the earth travels around the sun. The sun does not set in the waters if a muddy spring.

Who was Dhu'l-Qarneyn ?

There exists no evidence that Muhammad told anyone who this man was. Muslim apologists have four views :

- Alexander the Great (of Macedon) is the most popular view. Dhu'l-Qarneyn means "man of two horns". There exists a myth that Alexander the Great was a god and has two ram's horns on the sides of his head.

- Cyrus I the Persian is another view. His empire was actually the empire of two related groups : Medes and Persians (Medo-Persian empire), but other then that there is no indication that two horns should apply to him.

- A Yemeni king who wore a helmet with two ram's horns on it is a third view muslims hold.

- The fourth is of an otherwise unknown person. It does not seem too coherent to tell details about people the speakers never heard of.

Conclusion : It does not matter who Dhu'l-Qarneyn was. If he found that the sun set in a muddy spring, and the sun does not set in a muddy spring, then this is a falsehood, regardless of who Muhammad was speaking about.

# Muslim theories regarding surah 18:86

Theory 1 : the sun does really set in a muddy spring!

To early muslims, the Qur'an taught them that this literally occurs. The early muslim historian al-Tabari vol.1 p.234 shows this. As a second example, "[Dhu'l-Qarneyn] witnessed the setting of the sun in its resting place into a pool of black and foetid slime" according to al-Tabari vol.5 p.173-174.

Complementary to this, the earth actually sits on a big fish according to al-Tabari vol.1 p.220 (839-923 AD)

Theory 2 : The muddy spring is really Cyrus I seeing the Black Sea.

However not only does the sun not set in the Black Sea, the sun would only appear to set over the Black Sea if Cyrus I was directly north and/or east of it. He was never in this area containing modern-day Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. Furthermore, the Black Sea, with and area approximately of 464000 km^2, is not even close to looking like a spring, and everyone, from the Egyptians to further north, knew the sun did not set in the Black Sea!

Note : Shakir's English translation of the Qur'an has "black sea" (lower case). However the Arabic word "eiyn" or "ain" can mean spring or even pool around a spring, but cannot mean sea. Of the eight English translations I have come across of the Qur'an (during my research in preparation for this debate), his is unique in representing to people that the Qur'an said "black sea", when actually the Arabic specifically says "muddy/murky spring".

Notice how my opponent in his rebuttal last round incorrectly applies theory 2 (which applies to Cyrus I) to Alexander the Great. This alone falsifies his argument.

2- ROLE OF MOUNTAINS

My opponent states :

"My opponent offers no scientific evidence when he charges that the Qur'an is incorrect when it says :

He created the heavens without pillars as you see them, and put mountains upon the earth lest it might convulse you" (surah 31:10)"

Well here is the scientific evidence that you wanted which proves that earthquakes form mountains and are not prevented by the presence of mountains :

"Mountains are formed by the slow gigantic movements of the earth's crust (the outer layer of the earth) when two slabs smash into each other the land can either be pushed downwards or upwards, forming mountains. Many of the greatest mountains ranges of the world (the Himalayas) have formed because of the enormous collisions between continents..."
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk...

This is evidently taught at even the lowest levels of geology.

Here is another more advanced and extensive article which takes apart the Qur'an's claims of mountains preventing convulsion of the earth :

http://www.answering-islam.org...

If one reads through this well documented and extensive article, it will become plain as daylight to see the false teachings of the Qur'an which teach that mountains prevent earthquakes! Such teachings disrespect our very education that we go to school for!

3- CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QUR'an

Since my opponent has only replied to one of the contradiction arguments I have put forward, I will wait for him to answer all before presenting a rebuttal.

4- PROOF THAT THE QUR'AN IS THE REAL WORD OF GOD

My opponent says :

"Unlike other so called holy books, who are written by anonymous authors, the Qur'an was revealed to one man."

The fact that only one man attests to this alleged book of truth begs the question, and brings about skepticism of the claims made by this one man concerning the book as he is the only witness to its alleged divine revelation. Any piece of evidence, to be considered , in the furthest stretch of the mind, reliable requires at least a second witness. However the Qur'an was revealed to one man in a cave in Mecca! In court the less witnesses you have, the less credible your story becomes. The more witnesses you have, the more reliable you story is. Muhammad sadly was th only witness to the revelation of the Qur'an. This immediately demolishes the credibility if the Qur'an. And becomes severely unreliable as besides the book itself (which would be circular reasoning), Muhammad is its only witness!

My opponent proceeds to state :

"In the bible you have many men writing about God and you have in some places, the word of God speaking to men and still in other places you have some men simply writing about history"

Firstly the bible has absolutely NOTHING to do with this debate. Secondly the fact that the bible was written by over 40 different authors, over a period of around 1500 years, and still contains a consistent coherent message from star to finish only attests to the credibility of the bible.

My opponent proceeds :

"The word Qur'an can be found in several places in the Holy book of Islam"

This is circular reasoning

The word "dictionary" can be found in the dictionary too. This now does not mean that the dictionary is the word of God.

#All life comes from water

"...And we made from water everything living. Will they not then believe ?" (Surah 21:30)

If all life comes from water then what do we make of this surah :

"Among His signs in this, that He created you from DUST; and then behold, ye are men scattered [far and wide] " (Surah 30:20)

If all life comes from life as my opponent asserts from Surah 21:30, then this means there is a contradiction wit Surah 30:20. Thus from this the Qur'an is not from God because of this flaw.

#Behavior of heavenly bodies

This was known long before Islam even existed by the ancients greeks and great men like Ptolmey. There is nothing special about this.

#The Big Bang

Once one reads Surah 41:11 one will realize that the Big Bang claim to this surah is highly ambitious at best. The only parallel that could be made from any stretch of the imagination would be that heaven and earth allegedly spoke "we come willingly" and thus came together. One flaw of this is that if this is really an account of the Big Bang theory then what is earth doing here?

#Erosion

People already knew about soil erosion before, during and after Muhammad so this is nothing special. Just by looking at the soil beneath your feet, you cab observe and realize that soil erodes. There is nothing divine about this.

As a result of all that I have presented, I still hold the position that the Qur'an is not the word of God.

REFERENCES :

*http://www.answer-islam.org...

*http://www.surahkahf.com...

*http://www.muslimaccess.com...

*http://www.egyptsearch.com...
Rasheed

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for his efforts.

MUDDY WATER REVISITED

In the last round I provided the correct Arabic translation of the text in question to show that it in fact makes perfect sense, but I will provide another angle for the readers consideration. This is the correct translation of the verse again for the readers examination;

"Until , when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people..."

"Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun...":
The translation of this part of the verse does not say that Dhul-Qarnain reached the place where the sun sets LITERALLY, rather it means here that Dhul-Qarnain was facing the direction in which the sun is setting. The "setting of the sun," is an Arabic idiom meaning 'the western-most point' of his expedition. However, in general, idioms should not be literally translated.

"...he found it setting into a black sea":
The Qur'an is obviously describing what Dhul-Qarnain saw. What Dhul-Qarnain saw was the image of the sun setting in a dark body of water. Since the Qur'an is clearly describing this from Dhul-Qarnain's direct point of view (the Qur'an is quite explicit here in doing that), there is in fact no problem with the description of what Dhul-Qarnain saw. Of course my opponentis right when he says that "the sun does not set in a spring of murky water", but try standing at a beach during the time when the sun is about to set and my opponent would be able to see the sun "entering" the sea far in the horizon. This therefore gives us the conclusion that Dhul-Qarnain was somewhere west and by a large body of water, possibly the sea. Therefore, it is clear the verse says that Dhul-Qarnain went west and saw the sun setting over the horizon so that it looked to him as though it was setting into the sea, which is murky-looking.

Who was Dhu'l-Qarneyn ?

My opponents says; " There exists no evidence that Muhammad told anyone who this man was. Muslim apologists have four views :

- Alexander the Great (of Macedon) is the most popular view. Dhu'l-Qarneyn means "man of two horns". There exists a myth that Alexander the Great was a god and has two ram's horns on the sides of his head.

- Cyrus I the Persian is another view. His empire was actually the empire of two related groups : Medes and Persians (Medo-Persian empire), but other then that there is no indication that two horns should apply to him."

He then says that I am incorrect in asserting that I believeDhu-L-Qarnain is Alexander the Great after saying that it is one of four theories;

" Notice how my opponent in his rebuttal last round incorrectly applies theory 2 (which applies to Cyrus I) to Alexander the Great. This alone falsifies his argument."

But it was my opponent who made this claim in his initial argument;

"The passage is clearly writing historically about Alexander the Great and telling a particular story about an alleged journey of his. It says he journeyed to where the sun sets and that the sun sets in a POOL OF BLACK MUD."

I was dealing with the scientific accuracy of the Surah, not the identity of Dhu-L-Qranain, which is under dispute, but my opponent is hardly in a position to call into question the correctness of my information.

CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QUR'AN?

My opponent says;

"If all life comes from water then what do we make of this surah : "Among His signs in this, that He created you from DUST; and then behold, ye are men scattered [far and wide] " (Surah 30:20)

If all life comes from life as my opponent asserts from Surah 21:30, then this means there is a contradiction wit Surah 30:20. Thus from this the Qur'an is not from God because of this flaw."

The obvious explanation to this question is that these references describe different aspects or stages in man's creation. This has always been the understanding of such verses. The original creation of Adam was from the dust of the earth.

Surah 30:20 "Among His Signs is this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!"

This dust was then mixed with water to produce what is mentioned in the following verse:

Surah 15:26 "And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud."

If we take dust and add water to it, it will be mud. If it is left for some time, it will turn into clay. These are simply the stages of the creation of man. Man thus comes from dust, turned into clay after the addition of water. If we scrutinize this issue, we will find out that man, in his daily life, needs earth and depends on it in so many aspects. It is this earthy soil where we grow the plants upon which we live. Thus, preserving the materials of man depends on the source from which these materials are created. In addition, death itself serves as a proof of creation. When we try to demolish a building, we follow the reverse order of building it; we start with the last floor. By the same token, since we have not eye-witnessed the creation of man, then we shall see how death occurs.

When man dies, his soul leaves his body, then the decline starts; his body becomes dry (which is similar to the stage of clay) and then decays and turns finally into dust which was his original substance. Life is given to man through the soul that is blown into his body. When the soul departs, man dies and starts his way back to his original form going through the stages of his first creation. Thus, death stands as a living proof for creation.

Surah 21:30 "...We made of water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"

This verse explains that all living things are composed of water. Only after advances have been made in science, do we now know that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell is made up of 80% water. Modern research has also revealed that most organisms consist of 50% to 90% water and that every living entity requires water for its existence. Was it possible 14 centuries ago for any human-being to guess that every living being was made of water? Moreover would such a guess be conceivable by a human being in the deserts of Arabia where there has always been scarcity of water?

Reasons why the Qur'an is from God

1. The Qur'an appeals to mans reason to make it's case that it is from God;
"And yet Shaitan has led astray of you a great multitude. Did ye not then apply your reason? This is the Hell with which ye were threatened." (36:62-63)
"Will they not ponder over the Qur'an?" (4:82)
"Is it then that they do not ponder over what is said.." (23:68)
"..that they may ponder over its verses.." (38:29)
"Do you not then reflect?" (6:50)
"Thus do We make the verses distinct for a people who reflect." (10:24)
"Certainly We have revealed to you a Book in which is your own reminder; what! Will you not then use your reason?" (21:10)
"We have made the revelations clear to you, if you will use your reason." (3:118)

No other book asks man to use their reason as much as the Qur'an.

2. Scientific information:

"There is indeed no human work prior to modern times that contains statements which were equally in advance of the state of knowledge at the time they appeared and which might be compared to the Quran. It comes as no surprise to learn that Religion and Science have always been considered to be twin sisters by Islam and that today, at a time when science has taken such great strides, they still continue to be associated, and furthermore certain scientific data are used for the better understanding of the Quranic text. "What is more, in a century where, for many, scientific truth has dealt a deathblow to religious belief, it is precisely the discoveries of science that, in an objective examination of the Islamic Revelation, have highlighted the supernatural character of certain aspects of the Revelation." Dr. Maurice Bucaille. (http://www.themodernreligion.com...)

I reserve additional rebuttals and conclusion for final round.
Debate Round No. 3
Wandile

Pro

I thanks my opponent for his well informed rebuttal. As we shall see, he has made some mistakes in his arguments.

1- MUDDY WATER REVISED

My opponent states :

"In the last round I provided the correct Arabic translation of the text in question to show that it makes perfect sense"

It is true that my opponent presented the Arabic translation. However, he incorrectly asserts that; "ain-in hami'at-in" lierally means 'black sea. This is false and reflects a poor translation of the Arabic(which is expected from M.S. Shakir's translation). The phrase "ain-in hami'at-in" translated properly means murky/muddy spring. The word "ain" means spring in english as is evident here :

'Ain

The arabic word 'ain' means natural water source or spring- life blood of an oasis. http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com...

e.g.

Al Ain - The spring
Ain-Ebel - Spring of irrigation
Ain Jalut - Spring of Goliath

Let us observe various high-standard and prescribed translations of Surah 18:86 to see of the verse should say "black sea" :

"Till when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a MUDDY SPRING ..." (Pickthall translation)

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of MURKY WATER..." (Yusuf Ali translation)

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of DARK MUD..." (Saheeh International translation)

"Until when he reached the setting place of the sun, he perceived it setting in a MURKY SPRING..." (Daryabadi translation)

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a SPRING of MURKY water..." (Wahiduddin Khan translation)

The verse can also not be interpreted as Dhu'l-Qarneyn traveling to the western most part of his kingdom nor him looking at the sunset on the horizon. Notice that the text does NEVER says that the sun appeared to be setting in a black sea or what have you. The text clearly says Dhu'l-Qarneyn REACHED THE PLACE where the sun actually sets and rises (Surah 18:86-90).

It is also interesting to note that ibn Ishaq, in his Sirat Rasulullah, recorded a particular poem by Tubba which said :

"Dhu'l-Qarneyn before me was a Muslim
Conquered kings throughout his court,
East and west he rules, yet he sought
Knowledge true from learned sage.
HE SAW WHERE THE SUN SINKS
FROM VIEW IN A POOL OF MUD
AND FETID SLIME.
Before him Bliqis my father's sister
Rule them until the hoopoe came to her."

Taken at face value, this poem is a part of the evidence that Muhammad took over a legendary story known to the Arabs before the Revelation of the Qur'an.

Note : In what is classified a pre-Islamic poem, the word Muslim is used. This either suggests that the poem was manufactured by Muslims after Muhammad's prophethood or that the term was already in use prior to Muhammad's time. If the later, then this suggests further evidence of Muhammad taking over ideas from diverse religious groups of his time, erroneously assuming that these were divinely appointed or revealed.
http://www.answering-islam.org...

Such evidence in itself falsifies the supposed divine authorship of the Qur'an.

2- CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QUR'AN

My opponent attempts to reconcile the creation of life (from water) with the creation of man (from dust) by stating that through a mixture of the two, man was ultimately made through clay (incorporating dust and water). This argument. Is false for the following reasons :

The attempted harmonization by my opponent is an 'ad hoc' explanation since there is no indication that these verses were giving 'some of the ingredients' of man's creation. They do not read that way. The surahs never say : "we created man from water AMONG OTHER THINGS".

The surahs were sometimes revealed with years in between them. So assuming that they belong together and each give only some 'ingredient', is an artificial explanation as the Qur'an never hints at this. The Qur'an simply reveals them separately at different times :

"Created man, out of a CLOT of congealed BLOOD." (Surah 96:2)

"We created man from sounding CLAY...." (Surah 15:26)

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from DUST..." (Surah 3:59)

"But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of NOTHING?" (Surah 19:67)

"...And we made from WATER everything living." (Surah 21:30)

What do you think was the truth content of the verses revealed at the beginning if Muslims didn't know if there even would be any more revelations to give more ingredients? For them these were indeed absolute statement. Just as they appear to us today.

Surah (96:2) is already a scientific fallacy. Modern science clearly shows that people are not made through blood clots. Rather people are made from male sperm cells and female ova fusing to form a zygote that constantly divides via mitosis to form an embryo, which ultimately develops into a foetus! Such scientific errors are irreconcilable!

Note : my opponent has not attended to the historical errors, other scientific errors as well as the various other internal contradictions in the Qur'an which I presented in round 2 and 3. All I have to do is prove that the Qur'an contains at least one discrepancy (scientific, historical or textual) to dismiss the infallibility of the Qur'an which would in turn prove that it is not the word of God. I have proved this and consequently still lay claim to my position that the Qur'an is not the word of God.

PLEASE VOTE PRO! PLEASE VOTE PRO! PLEASE VOTE PRO!

References :

*http://www.answering-islam.org...

*http://www.forum.bismikaallahuma.org...

*http://www.en.m.wikipedia.org...

*http://www.quran.com...
Rasheed

Con

Rasheed forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
It is quite clear that pro wins this debate. Not only did con forfeit the final round, but provided erroneous Arabic translation in support of the Muddy water argument. Moreover, pro destroys his defense. To quote pro, "the fact the Koran was reveled to one man begs the question. We must take it to a degree of skepticism."
Posted by Wandile 5 years ago
Wandile
Danger93 does Islam not teach that Allah is the God of the Bible, the Judeo-Christian God, the God of Abraham? It most certainly does. When I say "the qur'an is not the word of God" I mean the God of Abraham.
Posted by danger93 5 years ago
danger93
uhmm Wandile Muslims do not claim that the Qur'an is the not the word of god. Actually they are the word of Allah (A god)
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
WandileRasheedTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF, and I may have forgotten already but did pro mention it was written by King Muhammad and used the religion to make his soldiers happy?
Vote Placed by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
WandileRasheedTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: See comments.