The Instigator
SocialistRI82
Pro (for)
Winning
23 Points
The Contender
Mike_BSU
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

The Race Debate

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/27/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,500 times Debate No: 9058
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (4)

 

SocialistRI82

Pro

Basically this debate will focus on a couple of the many issues this country faces with regards to race. I will list them and indicate my generalized position on the matter. If you have an opposing view then lets debate.
1. Affirmative Action: I am not in favor
2. Racial Profiling: Exists, but often times explainable as simply law of statistics
3. Slavery Reparation Money: Absurd, not in favor

Obviously other issues or points of discussion may arise and I am in favor of discussing just about anything on this issue. I look forward to engaging in meaningful debate over race issues and racial perceptions. I will afford my opponent the opportunity to respond to the above issues first, then I will clarify my positions.
Mike_BSU

Con

I would like to thank SocialistRI82 for what is sure to be an interesting debate.

"1. Affirmative Action: I am not in favor"

Even after discrimination laws prevented minorities from receiving unequal payment for the same work, white people still have quite an advantage of having ancestors that were quite better off than minorities' ancestors were. For example, a white college student is much more likely to have a wealthy grandfather to help them than is a minority. Therefore, affirmative action plans should still be in use until a significant time has passed to for them to put minorities at an advantage.

On another note, it surprises me that someone who claims to be a socialist would be against giving all people an equal chance given the circumstances.

"2. Racial Profiling: Exists, but often times explainable as simply law of statistics"

I am not sure why people think that just because a person is a minority, that they are more likely to commit a crime. All minds are capable to perform good or evil, no matter what the circumstances may be with the application of free will.

"3. Slavery Reparation Money: Absurd, not in favor"

Much like my first argument, I will say that all those hours of work without payment has put a slave's decedents at a disadvantage, while the selling of the labor and product has put the slave owner's decedents at a great advantage. Many slave owners became wealthy from their cash crop without paying a single cent to the slaves that helped him earn a living. This money has passed down to the slave owner's decedents, although a good portion of it rightfully belongs to the slave that helped cultivate it. An owner family's debt must be repaid to the slave's family.

Again, I am surprised you call yourself a socialist.
Debate Round No. 1
SocialistRI82

Pro

1.Affirmative Action: I feel your argument on this subject is flawed and far to simplistic. For example your assertion that white's have relatives who can bail them out, and minorities are far less likely to have them fails to put forth any factually based argument. Your argument would be better served to advocate socio-economic disparities in opportunity. If the purpose of affirmative action were to level the playing field for those who are at a historical disadvantage, then why not place the Irish on that list. They have suffered famines, utter poverty, institutional discrimination, all the things you list as your reasoning for affirmative action. See ( http://www.victorianweb.org... ) for any questions. Furthermore, in your final statement you claim that "affirmative action plans should still be in use until a significant time has passed to for them to put minorities at an advantage.", which is a huge problem. Since when should we be advocating for ANY group[ of people to have an advantage over anyone else? In fact they very document used to justify affirmative action, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. "In 1964 Congress passed Public Law 82-352 (78 Stat. 241). The provisions of this civil rights act forbade discrimination on the basis of sex as well as race in hiring, promoting, and firing." ( http://www.archives.gov... ). Clearly affirmative action would be making race a actor in hiring, promoting, and firing.
My position on affirmative action is that it is no longer a necessary in today's society. I feel society's aim should be to move ourselves beyond race. Eliminate race from consideration. Bottom line we are all human beings, just with varying skin colors. We must strive to maintain equality for all, not certain special groups. I feel affirmative action does minorities a disservice. Instead of receiving jobs, and receiving promotions based exclusively on merit often times minorities are given them to fulfill required racial quotas. This discourages society from moving beyond race. Resentments on both sides continue to exist and it further fuels racial tensions. I agree that something must be in place to address discriminating ring practices. I feel the NAACP, Rev. Al Sharpton, and the ACLU dedicate themselves to combating these issues. Before I forget to bring this up, you did mention college students in your argument and wanted to point something out. Using "black" Americans as an example I would like to point out the many hundreds of minority exclusive college loans and financial aid services which minorities receive. There are no exclusively white colleges, scholarships, or financial aid. So what is affirmative action really giving us?
2. Racial Profiling: As expected you clearly did not understand my stance. Lets look at the issue of crime. I think we can both admit that crime takes place (statistically speaking) amongst the lower-income brackets of society. I would love to see the statistics of inmates vs. economic standing. Anyways, throughout the history for this country that crime occurs in greater numbers when people do not have the ability (or who's path is perceived as impossible) to improve their situations. Now being that minorities make up a large portion of the above mentioned group (predominantly in urban areas) would it not be fair to assume that crime would be occurring (statistically speaking take homicide for example) ( http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov... ) more within the under-privileged. To play devils advocate race profiling is often done to identify serial killers, arsonists (previous mentioned link shows whites making up the better of arson cases), and in various other instances profiles are given which indicate race possibilities. These numbers are compiled statistically. Which as I referred to earlier will indicate blacks and other minorities (which make up a large part of the lower economic class) are committing certain crimes. The profiling that goes on is not based exclusively in racial resentment, but attributed to statistical trends. When Europeans were pouring into this country in the late 1800's and early 1900's they comprised the majority of the "poor" in this country, and go figure they were involved in crime to a larger degree than natural born Americans. Which coincidentally enough occurred in large degree in urban areas.

3.Slavery Reparation Money: You correctly indicated only one thing in your argument, that "all those hours of work without payment has put a slave's decedents at a disadvantage" and not the whole statement, but that you identified who did the hours of unpaid labor, slaves. Which if you're up on your history ended a long time ago. My great-great grandparents suffered intolerable conditions in Ireland at the hands o the British. Do I feel any level of entitlement to money as a result of their toils, and injustices they suffered? Simply put, NO. Yes people suffered under slavery. Europe, The US, Africa (Black and White), colonialism, capitalism, greed, all contributed to slavery. Vikings pillaged my families native land, perhaps I should instruct the Norwegian and Swedish governments I am entitled to reparations. This is a cheap and disgraceful way for society to address the history of slavery. Larry Koger's book titled "Black Slaveowners Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860" details black slave ownership in this country. We should be addressing the issue of slavery with the moral integrity that it deserves. Analyze and research it, find out it's causes, effects, and consequences. Identify its impact on our society and deal with these issues head on through dialog and understanding. Not through chepening it with pay-offs and hand outs.

*In general you referenced my being socialist numerous times and questioned my position. I believe in a society that does not recognize race as anything of relevance with regards to self worth. I recognize that we ll have different cultures and traditions however to attempt to put one above or below another is wrong. Socialism does not recognize race as an issue. I recognize the fact that the disparaging differences in income account for many problems in this country. That we should not make things black or white issues, but people issues. That my comrade is socialism.
Mike_BSU

Con

==Pro==
"1.Affirmative Action: I feel your argument on this subject is flawed and far to simplistic. […] fails to put forth any factually based argument. Your argument would be better served to advocate socio-economic disparities in opportunity."

==Rebuttal==
I wish to understand how my opponent can say that my argument has no basis in this argument. While my example may be at an extremity, white people are much better off than minorities. Yes, I am advocating "socio-economic disparities in opportunity," but is that not the case of this section of the debate? Equal opportunity has everything to do with affirmative action.

=Pro=
"If the purpose of affirmative action were to level the playing field for those who are at a historical disadvantage, then why not place the Irish on that list.

==Rebuttal==
While I concede that the Irish did receive some discrimination, African Americans had a much harder time. Irish Americans were allowed into jobs that African Americans could never step into, even at the lowest pay. (http://www.bukisa.com...) No colleges banned the Irish, and most Irish discrimination ended by the end of the Great Depression. On the other hand, African American discrimination went on past the 1960's and even still exists to a small extent in some communities. Irish people today are not even considered by any of the stereotypes that African Americans deal with today.

=Pro=
"Furthermore, in your final statement you claim that "affirmative action plans should still be in use until a significant time has passed to for them to put minorities at an advantage.", which is a huge problem. Since when should we be advocating for ANY group[ of people to have an advantage over anyone else? In fact they very document used to justify affirmative action, the Civil Rights Act of 1964). […] Clearly affirmative action would be making race a actor in hiring, promoting, and firing."

==Rebuttal==
My opponent is putting words into my mouth. What I said is that affirmative action plans should be in use UNTIL a significant time has passed for the plan to give them an advantage. Meaning that after it comes to a point that the affirmative action plans look to give minorities an advantage they will naturally go away.

=Pro=
I feel affirmative action does minorities a disservice. Instead of receiving jobs, and receiving promotions based exclusively on merit often times minorities are given them to fulfill required racial quotas. This discourages society from moving beyond race. Resentments on both sides continue to exist and it further fuels racial tensions. I agree that something must be in place to address discriminating ring practices.

==Push==
While I understand the logic of your argument, I now feel that affirmative action in the form of quotas should be gradually dropped now. I still feel that other forms of affirmative action are required for a decade or two, but I will concede to you the racial quota problem.

=Pro=
… you did mention college students in your argument and wanted to point something out. Using "black" Americans as an example I would like to point out the many hundreds of minority exclusive college loans and financial aid services which minorities receive. There are no exclusively white colleges, scholarships, or financial aid.

==Rebuttal==
My opponent has failed to do his research before saying that there are no white scholarships. (http://www.foxnews.com...) Granted, this is only one counter evidence, but by the logistic standards of debate, there is only a need for one counter to change the claim. Also, there are historically black colleges that began before integration, but they will accept anyone of any race, not just blacks. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com...)

=Pro=
2. Racial Profiling: As expected you clearly did not understand my stance. Lets look at the issue of crime. I think we can both admit that crime takes place (statistically speaking) amongst the lower-income brackets of society. I would love to see the statistics of inmates vs. economic standing. Anyways, throughout the history for this country that crime occurs in greater numbers when people do not have the ability (or who's path is perceived as impossible) to improve their situations. Now being that minorities make up a large portion of the above mentioned group (predominantly in urban areas) would it not be fair to assume that crime would be occurring […] more within the under-privileged. To play devils advocate race profiling is often done to identify serial killers, arsonists (previous mentioned link shows whites making up the better of arson cases), and in various other instances profiles are given which indicate race possibilities. These numbers are compiled statistically. Which as I referred to earlier will indicate blacks and other minorities (which make up a large part of the lower economic class) are committing certain crimes. The profiling that goes on is not based exclusively in racial resentment, but attributed to statistical trends. When Europeans were pouring into this country in the late 1800's and early 1900's they comprised the majority of the "poor" in this country, and go figure they were involved in crime to a larger degree than natural born Americans…

==Rebuttal==
I trust the statistics of the issue and agree that minorities make a large percentage of inmates compared to the majority. However, to say that people of a certain race are more likely to commit crimes based on these statistics would be improper for an actual investigation. It is an accepted belief that all people are innocent until proven guilty. To place guilt of a crime on a minority before the official investigation would be breaking this conduct.

=Pro=
3.Slavery Reparation Money: You correctly indicated only one thing in your argument, that "all those hours of work without payment has put a slave's decedents at a disadvantage" and not the whole statement, but that you identified who did the hours of unpaid labor, slaves. Which if you're up on your history ended a long time ago. My great-great grandparents suffered intolerable conditions in Ireland at the hands o the British.

==Rebuttal==
The problem with this argument is that there is no way to fix the suffering that has occurred to the Irish. Yes, they may have had discrimination, loosing money in the process, but those that did have jobs were paid, unlike African Americans.

=Pro=
Yes people suffered under slavery. Europe, The US, Africa (Black and White), colonialism, capitalism, greed, all contributed to slavery. Vikings pillaged my families native land, perhaps I should instruct the Norwegian and Swedish governments I am entitled to reparations.

==Rebuttal==
This is a ridiculous argument. Despite the fact that Viking were well known for their pillaging, it is virtually impossible to determine if your ancestors were affected. Perhaps your ancestors were lucky enough to be out of town during the pillaging. Also, it would be incredibly difficult to determine who exactly was responsible for the pillaging.

=Pro=
[…] We should be addressing the issue of slavery with the moral integrity that it deserves. Analyze and research it, find out it's causes, effects, and consequences. Identify its impact on our society and deal with these issues head on through dialog and understanding. Not through chepening it with pay-offs and hand outs.

==Rebuttal==
Although I agree that we should come to an understanding on the causes and effects of slavery, being paid for labor done by your ancestor is hardly considered a "hand out." The wealthy slave owners have decedents(who's own wealth was not argued by my opponent,) that have a debt to the slave's family members.

=Note=
I will remain quiet of my opponent's ideology, as I see it has no bearing on this case.
Debate Round No. 2
SocialistRI82

Pro

1. Affirmative Action
I will start by defining equal opportunity: Absence of discrimination, as in the workplace, based on race, color, age, gender, national origin, religion, or mental or physical disability. ( http://www.answers.com... ) Since equal opportunity has become the cornerstone of your argument then we should come to an agreeable definition of it. Affirmative action fundamentally violates the spirit of equal opportunity. It places preference on one group, which regardless of reasoning goes against the spirit of equal opportunity. What I was illustrating with the Irish examples was that many wrongs have occurred to many peoples. The effects of which are still felt to this day by their ancestors. Would not society be better served by simply saying that we are committed to ensuring our country's under-privileged (financially) have equal access to educational resources, employment opportunity/advancement, and are afforded the same rights as all? I would argue that affirmative action serves as a barrier to racial reconciliation, and racial equality. It violates the spirit of equality by targeting certain ethnic, and racial groups for preferential treatment.
On the issue of white only scholarships, I was only able to find information on three such scholarships. "The scholarship was a proposal to parody and highlight the inequity and unfairness of racial preferences at his school, and on colleges across America, Mattera said" ( http://en.wikipedia.org... ) This actually occurred at a school in my state (Roger Williams University) and offered $250 to the selected student. This occurred as the above article indicates in 2004. I have been unable to find any active and institutionally recognized white only scholarship. I don't think I need to go through the trouble of comparing federal subsidies to minority exclusive scholarships and programs versus white exclusive.
Another question on this topic I'd love to ask my opponent is whether or not jobs should be given and entrance to colleges given, strictly on a base of merit?

2. Racial Profiling
I agree with the following," It is an accepted belief that all people are innocent until proven guilty. To place guilt of a crime on a minority before the official investigation would be breaking this conduct" from your rebuttal. I disagree with the context with which you are using this though. You are arguing assuming that I am of the position that it occurs routinely and that it is useful. I am not. I am pointing out that racial profiling advocates often point to racial arrest statistics, racial incarceration statistics as a means of furthering their arguments through examples. I attempted in the previous round to identify that crime occurs predominantly in the lower economic brackets. Recognizing minorities make up a large part of that group would indicate an obvious correlation between race and arrests/incarcerations. I admit that sometimes a white cop is pulling over a minority out of racial motives. I admit that sometimes black/ Hispanic / Asian / ect cops pull over whites out of racial motives. To categorize law enforcement as having been engaged profiling based on race due to arrest/incarceration rates is outright wrong. These statistics represent financial disparities more than anything. I submit that we must look at this issue with a microscope. Look beyond the most simplistic of reasoning an investigate the true causes of these statistics.

3. Slave Reparation Money
I will first continue to argue that simply being related to someone who over a hundred years ago was denied wages, does not entitle you to a financial consideration. However, I'll play devils advocate. If you favor slave reparations then certainly you would allow the entire Jewish race to collect reparations from everyone who wronged them throughout history ( http://www.chosenpeople.com... ). By your own metric the Jewish people should certainly be receiving quite a massive amount of reparations from a great many nations and people. Another flaw with your argument is that you keep referring to modern day minorities not having the wealth they would have had there been no slavery. Let us assume that slavery never occurs. What wealth would have come from these ancestors anyways. They would have still endured brutal colonialism under the European countries. Lets look at this link here if we need any guidance on colonization by the Europeans. (http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu...). I argue that the assertion that descendants are entitled to financial reparations, even if entertained, would prove wrong in the long run anyways. Africa as a continent has been brutalized and oppressed by Europeans during the colonial days. The exploitation of its vast resources and wealth would have occurred with or without slavery. Even if you found a way to over look these facts and accepted this notion of reparations as valid then you would have to equally compensate everyone who's descendants were grossly economically exploited. I don't know that we have enough paper to print enough money to do that.
Mike_BSU

Con

1. Affirmative Action
I will admit affirmative action does have a slight damper on the exact definition of equal opportunity, but I believe there are many positive results that can not be ignored. First of all, affirmative action promotes racial diversity in places where there were previously no minorities. Whether it men being put into nursing schools, women being involved in the military, or minorities going to Ivy League Colleges, it's always a good idea to attract people to a study they may not have thought otherwise. Breaking these stereotypes and showing that minorities are just as capable as everyone else will allow for affirmative action to wane itself, allowing for people to truly be based on merit.

2. Racial Profiling
I am quite confused on your stance on this issue. You act as if I am saying that racial profiling exists based solely on the arrest records, which, as you said, would only serve to show desperation for minorities. Are we debating that profiling is morally wrong and inefficient, or are we debating its existence? Please clarify your opinion as if you do feel that it exists, but it is morally wrong, we have no debate here.

3. Slavery Reparations
First of all, I would like to mention that while the Jews suffering has been well documented, it is virtually impossible today to discover who's ancestors were responsible for the acts up to the mid 19th Century, where we started having much greater records to track these down with. Germany has already given reparations to Israel, (http://www.ihr.org...) and the funds has supplied Israel with a good percentage of its infrastructure. Perhaps reparation can come into another form, rather than giving each family their share (a process that would takes years to figure out.) We can create something built specifically to assist the black community. The Holocaust Museum has provided a great opportunity to show the plights of Jewish people in Nazi Germany, so perhaps we could build a US Slavery Museum to serve the same purpose. To be clear, this would NOT be any different from payment to each of the families affected by slavery.
Debate Round No. 3
SocialistRI82

Pro

1. Affirmative Action
The very fact that you admit that "affirmative action does have a slight damper on the exact definition of equal opportunity" reveals to me that it does not serve the purpose of equal opportunity. It is clearly too selective with regards to the people that it protects. Does it have positive outcomes perhaps but it is at the cost of non-minorities rights. If we want to change the way that race is looked at in this country we need to address the true issues. In doing so we must take every race's rights into consideration. I stand by the weight of all of my arguments from the previous rounds. I see no need to follow up with anything further.

2. Racial Profiling
My stance is clear, police are human beings and make mistakes, all races included. Racist police will be in our society to some degree on all sides. My contention is that it occurs very rarely, and not on an institutional level as man proponents of minority groups allege. Crime will occur within the lower income brackets. Whatever race makes up that bracket will see increases in crime statistics. To say that this is as a result of an institution that targets minorities is ludicrous. Anyone who looks at the issue without any racial bias will come to the same conclusion. The line in the sand is drawn and my stance on this matter is clear.

3.Slave Reparations
First of all you correctly point out that the Jews were given reparation money. The individuals who received this money were directly affected by the holocaust. In other words they directly experienced it. No black alive in this country has suffered under slavery. With regards to the slavery museum that would be something I would support. It would correctly address one way with which educate our society about the horrors of slavery. However when you claim that this would be no different than reparation money is way off base. Reparation money does nothing to address the consequences of slavery. A museum would be a far better idea. A place where members of all races are able to be better educated about the who, what, where, when, and whys of slavery. The idea of a museum would not be the sole method used to address the issue of race in our society. Clearly other avenues who have to be explored, but it would be a good start. It is clear tome that reparations are another extension of a failing policy at attempting to deal with race. It does nothing to open dialog among society, repair the distrust that exists between the races, and move s beyond the issue of race Again stand by my previous arguments with regards to this issue.
Mike_BSU

Con

I believe that I have exhausted my knowledge of the topic to a thorough degree, so I shall keep my closing statement brief.

1. Affirmative Action
I believe that in the case of affirmative action, the ends justify the means, and eventually the ends will lead to the dissolution of the means my opponent is against.

2. Racial Profiling
I have never said that the reason minorities make up the majority of prisons is due to racial profiling. I agree that minorities are disadvantaged hence my stand in favor of affirmative action, and therefore they are most likely to use desperate measures. However, the very few officers that do racially profile waste police resources such as time and money when they could have found actual criminals. I understand that cops are human, but profiling is always wrong not just for the victim but to society as a whole.

3. Slavery Reparations
I understand that a slavery museum would also benefit other members of society, but the majority of beneficiaries would be the black community whose ancestors were slaves. Just as reparations would benefit society as a whole by allowing these decedents feel at peace with repayment, so would the museum. I'm not saying that it is just exactly the same as direct payment, but it is damn well close.

We may have come to something closer to a compromise in two of the three topics of debate, and I commend you for agreeing to some of my posts. I thank you for your courteous conduct, and wish to see you debate another time.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Rhino 8 years ago
Rhino
I agree with SocialistRI82 Affirmative action undermines the idea of equality and that is wrong.
Posted by KeithKroeger91 8 years ago
KeithKroeger91
Mike.. Germany paid Israel because people who suffered under the holocaust are still ALIVE.

Find me just one black in America who suffered under slavery to us "Evil" white people. Please just find me ONE. I personally will not pay any reparations EVER to people who did not suffer under slavery.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
I'm agreeing with a socialist. What has the world come to?
Posted by SocialistRI82 8 years ago
SocialistRI82
WWII reparations are relevant due to the fact that the people who received the funding DIRECTLY suffered from what happened.
Posted by Sniperjake1994 8 years ago
Sniperjake1994
Could you state the whole resolution, your definitions, and observations because it's very unfair for both sides: Pro get 3 rounds to debate and Con needs to spend more time.
Anyway, this country wishes to achieve equality for all and by doing that we need aff action, racial profiling, and paying people back for the wrongs we did such as the WW2 Japanese-American citizen.
Posted by Sniperjake1994 8 years ago
Sniperjake1994
I would accept but I don't have time. Challenge this again next week when I'm done with summer school. Thanks.
Posted by I-am-a-panda 8 years ago
I-am-a-panda
AA: Discourages International studying of popular courses.

Slave Reparations: Fully justified

Racial Profiling: Iffy. It's statistical but can simply brand one race as robbers.
Posted by SocialistRI82 8 years ago
SocialistRI82
I guess im just not that radical. Oh well. Anyways now on to something that really matters......
Posted by Xer 8 years ago
Xer
You're name is SocialistRI82. But, in your profile, it says "Ideology: Communist" and "Party: Communist Party" So, which is it? And either way, I find it suprising you are against these topics. Also, Pro-Flat Tax and Pro-United Nations is not very Socialist/Commie. 54.29% agree with me, so you aren't that radical.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by KeithKroeger91 8 years ago
KeithKroeger91
SocialistRI82Mike_BSUTied
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Vote Placed by Rumsy 8 years ago
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SocialistRI82Mike_BSUTied
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Vote Placed by DoctrinallyCorrect 8 years ago
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SocialistRI82Mike_BSUTied
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Vote Placed by Mike_BSU 8 years ago
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