The Instigator
Seanyboy
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Strategery
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Republics Clone Army Is Far Superior To The Imperials Storm trooper Army

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Seanyboy
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/26/2016 Category: Movies
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 538 times Debate No: 85601
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

Seanyboy

Pro

Clone Troopers are FAR superior to the Storm troopers in almost all ways. Their armour and vehicles are the only thing weighing them down (in the armours case, quite literally). Lets not forget first of all that technology wise the storm troopers may be advanced only because a lot of their weapons are vehicles are based of the clone armies technology. For example the AT-AT is based off the clone armies AT-ET. The clone armies are put into their own squads and trained to hold each other up and work as a team. In the storm troopers training they are trained to leave an injured man behind and continue with their mission. The influence of the clone armies efficiency is even carried forward into The Force Awakens where the First Order troopers are essentially as clone as you can get to having a clone army without actually cloning. In fact the First Order troops are criticised in the movies I believe and somebody even recommends a clone army before the idea is immediately dismissed. However this debate is about the Imperial storm troopers and the clone army not the first order. I will go into detail about the training and equipment of the clone army in my next few rounds.
Strategery

Con

Storm Troopers are superior to Clone Troopers because operations belonging to the former are led by Darth Vader and supported by the Death Stars.

/Debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Seanyboy

Pro

The death stars are not actually a design of the imperials but rather of the separatists. After the clone wars the imperials stole the death star plans and made it themselves. The Imperial forces are almost completely comprised of technology stolen from either the separatists or the republic. Also do not forget that darth vader also fought with the republic and the clones in the form of anakin skywalker, granted not as cool or powerful but they are still the same man. The clones are quite literally together in squads for life. They are cloned in pods of 32, these 32 then trained, ate and fought together, having literally been together since birth the clones formed a very strong bond with one another. also the training they were put through was formulated by Jango Fett and other elite mandalorian troops. from the age of 14 future storm troopers were put through non-stop, tiring training, where they were trained to completely disregard fallen allies in battle, which often resulted in storm troopers being mentally unstable by the time they were actually accepted as storm troopers. I will go into detail about the vehicles and weapons used by the clones in my future rounds.

Small factoid, after measuring storm troopers throughout the movies, it turns out Mark Hamill is actually tall to be a storm trooper
Strategery

Con

The death stars are not actually a design of the imperials but rather of the separatists. After the clone wars the imperials stole the death star plans and made it themselves.

The Soviets actually stole blueprints for their atomic bombs from the United States, but that doesn't mean that Red Army was ever inferior to Canada and Mexico.

Also, just because the original plans were stolen, doesn't mean that the atomic bombs or Death Stars were any less destructive.

Also do not forget that Darth Vader also fought with the republic and the clones in the form of anakin skywalker, granted not as cool or powerful but they are still the same man.

Not the same person. Darth Vader was a badass Sith-Lord who who inspired fear, terror, and respect throughout the galaxy. Anakin Skywalker however, was a whiny neurotic crybaby, an unlucky Padme lover, and the biggest disappointment the Jedi had ever seen in 29,000 years.

storm troopers were put through non-stop, tiring training... which often resulted in storm troopers being mentally unstable

But you forgot to mention that elite storm troopers were eligible to become Dark Troopers. The Dark Trooper Project of course was an advance research program funded by Sidious to develop what would have become next generation of storm troopers & battledroids (http://starwars.wikia.com...).

Dark Troopers > Clones.





Debate Round No. 2
Seanyboy

Pro

Your completely forgetting the point of this debate. This is to see which of the two armies would win in a ground war. Not who led them or the strength of there fleets. Incase that doesn't float your boat let me just say that "supported by the Death Stars" is not quite true, considering there was only ever two built. The first was fired once before its destruction, then the second wasn't even completed before the rebels destroyed it. Secondly, darth vader does not lead the imperial army. Instead he leads a small portion of it called the 501st regiment or "vader's fist". Which was in fact as much as 25% clones, showing darth vader still believed clones to be efficient. Also yes, dark troopers would beat your average clone but then your also forgetting the elite clone troopers who could take on and beat a jedi quite easily.
Elite clones=Dark troopers.
Strategery

Con

Your completely forgetting the point of this debate. This is to see which of the two armies would win in a ground war.

No, I think you're sort of forgetting how fighting wars -to include supporting ground forces- in star wars actually works. A clone army is at a serious disadvantage once Kamino (the cloning headquarters and supply center of the clone army) gets knocked out by the Death Stars or Imperial Fleets. Once that's taken care of, how long is it then that a clone army simply loses by war of attrition and for lack of resupply? As can you can see then, the Imperial Army is vastly better equipped with far more powerful enabling space-tech and superweapons that can dictate the terms & conditions of any ground war.

You'll also remember that the Death Stars serve as a moon size mobile headquarters for the Grand Moffs and Imperial Joint Chiefs. This means then that the Imperial Army -with the Death Stars- has a vastly superior platform for command & control,

The first was fired once before its destruction, then the second wasn't even completed before the rebels destroyed it.

This is true. But there's no evidence that a fleet, army, or planet from the clone wars era could ever survive an attack by the Death Star.

Secondly, darth vader does not lead the imperial army.

Completely false. During raids Vader personally leads the 501st legion, but his actual position in the imperial hierarchy is 2nd in command of the imperial military to the Emperor himself (http://starwars.wikia.com...). The strategic make up, tactics, organization, and overall strategies of the imperial army therefore (to include leading ground operations like the Battle of Hoth), are largely contributed by Vader himself. In contrast to Anakain Skywalker, when Anakin tried to get a leadership seat on the Jedi council, he wasn't even given the title of master.

your also forgetting the elite clone troopers who could take on and beat a jedi quite easily.

You're also forgetting that the imperial army also had the Imperial Royal Guard. When they weren't protecting the Emperor, elite members where trained to confront jedi.

Dark Troopers > Average Clone Trooper
Imperial Guard > Jedi



Debate Round No. 3
Seanyboy

Pro

To start of I would like to apologize for the crudeness of my last round as I was unable to do it on my laptop and had to rush it on my phone. Secondly, as I read through our arguments I see that we are clearly debating about two completely separate things, you talking about the entirety of the Republic army and Imperial army, and I am simply talking about your average clone and your average storm trooper pitted against each other and I sincerely apologize for not making that very clear and possibly causing confusion. The phase one armour worn by the clones was based mostly on Mandalorian armour such as the armour worn by Jango and Boba Fett. It was made up of 20 lightweight armour plates, however as I said before the armour weighed as much as 44 kilograms. The clones themselves felt the armour was uncomfortable and heavy but it was times of war and it got the job done. As well as that the armour could be vacuum sealed allowing clones to survive in space for a short time. The armour was strong enough to take multiple direct blaster hits without the clones needing recovery time after. The clones basic/default weapon was the DC15A blaster rifle, the blaster was more then powerful enough to hit and kill an armoured foe up to 2 miles away, though a precise shot like that was improbable, it was possible. The gun themselves were connected to the clones helmets and gave them the ability to see exactly where their shot would hit on their HUDs. The storm troopers basic/default weapon was the E-11 blaster rifle which is a further expansion on the DC15A used by the clones, with a shorter firing distance but better aiming technology and different setting (Automatic/Semi-Automatic/Burst). Despite the fact all storm troopers were highly trained and top of their class their training was nowhere near as intense and elite as the clones. The clones are not only physically designed to be warriors but they have literally been training their entire lives alongside their brothers. Although the storm troopers had slightly better armour and weapons than the clones their training and all round competence was still nowhere near as high as the clones. If we were to pit a squad of ten phase one clone troopers with basic/default armour and basic/default guns against a squad of ten storm troopers with basic/default armour and basic/default guns the clones would win almost if not every time. Even if you picked 10 of the best trained storm troopers (not dark troopers) whose training was not rushed and they had very high morale they would have a better chance but they would still not be as elite as the clones. Now, let's compare vehicles, specifically the clone armies AT-ET and the imperial AT-AT. The AT-AT travelled at approx. 60 m/ph, needed three crew to pilot and could hold up to 40 passengers. Its weaponry was 2 heavy blasters at the front end and 2 more blasters on the hull. Its armour is quite strong in most parts however to easy to hit weak spots are it"s underbelly and its neck. If a heavy weapon managed to get underneath it it was done for without support. As well as this the legs can be tangled, as seen on Hoth. The AT-ET travelled at the same speed, 60 mph. It requires 7 crew and could carry up to 38 passengers. Its arsenal includes 6 anti-personnel laser cannons and one mass-driver cannon. Its only weak points are its vulnerability to air attacks and it underbelly (which is hard to hit directly because of its proximity to the ground). The AT-ET can also be used in the vacuum of space and using grapple hooks and the traction pads on its "feet" it can climb up vertical walls. The AT-AT is a further advancement on the Republic"s AT-ET which is still used by the storm troopers though not as often. I feel the both a=of them are on equal ground and the probability of one beating the other completely depends on the situation and the place such battle would take place in.
Strategery

Con

Holy crap! That hurst my eyes dude.

But yeah, I mean you can't really say that the Old Republic would defeat the Empire in a ground war without taking into consideration all the tooth to tails concepts that go into making ground operations work (like funding, training, logistics, morale, leadership, alliances, etc, etc,). So the Death Stars are a huge imperial advantage here.

As far as just storm troopers vs clones go, I still think Darth Vader is pretty relevant, as he is the one who will lead the storm troopers.
However, in terms of just ground equipment and vehicles, I think the walkers have always been considered the best assualt transports in star wars. Compared to the AT-TE, the AT-AT has much thicker armour, more powerful laser cannons, and could carry more troops.


Debate Round No. 4
Seanyboy

Pro

I mean you can't really say that the Old Republic would defeat the Empire in a ground war without taking into consideration all the tooth to tails concepts that go into making ground operations work (like funding, training, logistics, morale, leadership, alliances, etc, etc,). So the Death Stars are a huge imperial advantage here."

I completely agree, in an all out war against the republic, if both sides were at full possible strength, the empire would completely decimate the republic, take out the separatists along the way, and still feel well enough protected to leave their door unlocked when they leave the house. However, comparing the technology of the two armies is completely futile. The both of them are in completely different time periods, as well as that a lot of the storm troopers technology is further enhancements on clone technology. For example the storm trooper"s AT-AT walker and E-11 blaster rifle. both of them are new, more advanced versions of the clone armies AT-TE walker and DC15A blaster rifle. Technology wise the Empire is always going to trump the clone army and there is no point in comparing the two.
I still stand to my belief that if we were to strip a storm trooper of his guns and armour, then strip a clone of his guns and armour, the clone would destroy the storm trooper in all aspects. As I have stated before clones are literally bred for war, trained since birth around their trusted brothers to become the epitome of a great soldier. The technology of their time is their ultimate downfall, that and the lack of resources and good leadership during the Clone Wars.

One question, just to see if it is possible for us to come to a general consensus on something, I firmly believe that the forces of the First Order could not only defeat but destroy the clone army and every other significant army in the star wars franchise (e.g. The Droid army, The Imperial army). Opinion?

And yes I do realize the First Order came from the Imperial army but this is all hypothetical.
Strategery

Con

I still stand to my belief that if we were to strip a storm trooper of his guns and armour, then strip a clone of his guns and armour, the clone would destroy the storm trooper in all aspects.

Well that's not really true either because some selected storm troopers -like Finn in EP VII and members of Palpatine's imperial guard- were shown in the lore to be force sensitive. The clones -by virtue of having their DNA manipulated- lacked in midiclorians and would thus be at a disadvantage in a bare bones fight. Plus we've already established that Dark Troopers beat clones.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Seanyboy 1 year ago
Seanyboy
Good debate, I feel in the end its really opinionated here. Lovers of the original trilogy are more likely to pick storm troopers, lovers of the prequels will likely choose clones. The winner of a battle between the two is completely dependent on the place, situation and even weather on the day. I personally love the original trilogy, however I feel if I was ever to take control of one of these armies I would choose the clones simply because I like them.
Posted by Seanyboy 1 year ago
Seanyboy
Sorry about my mistake in the fourth round accidentally put in "AT-ET" instead of AT-TE.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
SeanyboyStrategeryTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Con immediately got off on the wrong foot by arguing that the Storm Trooper Army is superior to Clone Army simply because they have better leadership in Vader. Pro pointed out that those same leaders also led the Clone Army, which Con failed to dismiss... The real game-breaker came in round 4 though, where Pro actually listed several specifics about Clone Army weapons and armor gear, almost all of which Con dropped in round 4. Arguments go to pro, all other aspects remain tied