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The Contender
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The Roman Catholic Church v. Baptist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/2/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 10,967 times Debate No: 24020
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (32)
Votes (2)




For some reason, my opponent seems to have something against Roman Catholics [1]. He has stated "What confuses me is people thinking somehow Roman Catholic is christian at all." [2], implying that he does not believe Roman Catholics are Christian. The actual resolution is "Roman Catholics adhere to the teachings of Christ."
My opponent has disparaged Roman Catholicism with quotes such as "You pray to saints and confess to popes.". These claims are groundless as I will show.

Do not use semantics. The Burden of Proof is on my opponent. My opponent should begin arguing in Round 1, and not argue in Round 5. If he has any issues with this debate topic or setup, I will be glad to change it.
Note agreements made in the comments section as binding regulations regarding the debate.

I will use the Biblia Sacra Vulgata.



I would like to say I greatly appreciate my opponet for choosing to debate this topic. I have been wanting to debate this subject for a longtime and He gave me that chance.

NOTE: I would first like to start by apologizing to all Catholics. My comments may be harse but I will show I have validation for my claims. I do not use those comments to a whole people or person but a practice.

My opponent chooses the Latin Vulgate Bible alternatively titled Biblia Sacra Vulgata and I choose the Standard King James Version. By these premises we will go forward.

A Brief Summary into our Biblical history:
The Vulgate is a late 4th-century Latin translation of the Bible. It was largely the work of St. Jerome, who was commissioned by Pope Damacus 1 in 382 to make a revision of the old Latin translations. How much of the rest of the New Testament he then revised is difficult to judge today, but little of his work survived in the Vulgate text. Because they were not intended for a general audience, some of his comments in them are quite cryptic. In these letters, Jerome described those books or portions of books in the Septugint that were not found in the Hebrew as being non-canonical: he called them apocrypha. Jerome's views did not, however, prevail; and all complete manuscripts and editions of the Vulgate include some or all these books. For over a thousand years the Vulgate was the definitive edition of the most influential text in Western European society. Indeed, for most Western Christians, it was the only version of the Bible ever encountered. Christians during these times the phraseology and wording of the Vulgate permeated all areas of the culture. Latin reference text is the Vulgate; and where Protestant churches took their lead from the Genevan example – as in England and Scotland the result was a broadening appreciation of Jerome's translation in its dignified style and flowing prose. The Vulgate continued to be regarded as the standard scholarly Bible throughout most of the 17th Century.

The Authorized Version, commonly known as the King James Version, King James Bible or KJV, is an English translation of the Christian Bible by the Church of England begun in 1604 and completed in 1611. In January 1604, King James VI of Scotland and I of England convened the Hampton Court Conference where a new English version was conceived in response to the perceived problems of the earlier translations as detected by the Puritans, a faction within the Church of England. The translation was done by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England. In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek and Latin. By the first half of the 18th century, the Authorized Version was effectively unchallenged as the English translation used in Anglican and Protestant churches. Over the course of the 18th century, the Authorized Version supplanted the Latin Vulgate as the standard version of scripture for English speaking scholars. The new translation would reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and traditional beliefs about ordained clergy.

My Interpretations:
First of all, the Latin Vulgate was intended to be a vernacular translation for the people of the Roman Empire in their common tongue. It was commissioned by the Pope and composed by the greatest of the Patristic biblical scholars, St. Jerome. Secondly, Jerome was not trying for a critical text with apparatus but for a readable text for use in the liturgy. The Masoretic text has been the basis of most Hebrew Bibles since the 8th Century and was used by the Reformers. Thirdly, the Latin Vulgate was a scholarly attempt at reconstructing the Bible unlike the various codices we have from the early 4th Century. This is a great paradox. The Roman Emperor Constantine in the wake of the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD commissioned 50 codices of the Bible in Greek so that one could be enthroned in honor in each of the major cities of the Empire. Unfortunately, these were NOT critical editions, but more like commemorative copies from the Franklin Mint or BOMC. While they give us the earliest most complete Bible texts in Greek, they may not have been as representative of the original autographs as what St. Jerome used 60 years later. The Peshitta texts in Aramaic may be better witnesses of the period before 300 AD. And the Septuagint Greek text appears in may cases closer to some of the Hebrew Biblical texts from the 1st Century Dead Sea Scrolls than the later 8th Century Masoretic text. This may have been true in pagan Greek. The problem was that the Greek word metanoia was probably used to translate the Hebrew word teshuvah which means "turning". In the Jewish religion this encompassed such things as fasting, wearing sack cloth and ashes, and other works of mortification. St. Jerome's choice here took cognizance of the wider Jewish context of the NT. So in the end, St. Jerome did the best job possible for his time. What makes a "good" Biblical translation changes from one time period to another and what works in one period may not work as well in another.

Catholicism vs. Salvation
1. Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works [1247-1249]

God justifies ungodly sinners who believe (Romans 4:5). Good works are a result of salvation, not the cause (Ephesians 2:8-10).

2. Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392,2010].

Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete.
(Colossians 2:10).

3. Roman Catholic doctrine not following the scripture, "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."(Mat 6:6-8)

While there have been good (humanly speaking) and moral men who have served as Roman Catholics.The Roman Catholic Church teaching about the office of the pope should be rejected because it is not "in continuity" with the teachings of the original church related to us in the New Testament. This comparison of any church's teaching is essential, lest we miss the New Testament's teaching concerning the gospel, and not only miss eternal life in heaven ourselves, but unwittingly lead others down the wrong path.(Gal 1:8-9)

I provide here the core of our arguement and I hope we negate the resolution together. I humble myself to understand the ways of my opponent. This round I have also offered issues with the Roman Catholic teachings for my opponent. In the next round I will rebuttal and give alot more issues. Thanks!
Debate Round No. 1


"In nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti" - The Sign of the Cross

"credo in unum Deum Patrem in unum dominum Iusum christum filium dei in spiritum sanctum" - Excerpts from the Nicene Creed

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate. My only fear is that I will not do the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church justice.

Contention I: Salvation

I do not know where my opponent is getting his information on the Roman Catholic position. I would appreciate it if he could provide a citation from the CCC or other reliable source on Catholicism (the numbers provided cannot refer to the CCC, as that particular section is on baptism). In counter to my opponent, I cite James 2:26:

"(26) Sicut enim corpus sine spiritu emortuum est, ita et fides sine operibus mortua est." (Biblia Sacra Vulgata)

"(26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (King James Version)

The Roman Catholic position, as affirmed by the Council of Trent's Canon III on the Decree of Justification:

"If any one saith [says], that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema [excommunicated]." - Council of Trent

This position concurs perfectly with Ephesians 2:8-10. The works do not save you, they are a proof and result of your faith. You cannot have faith if you do not do works, as it says in James 2:26. Looking at this logically, shouldn't one who truly has faith do good works? If you truly believe, why would you not work as Jesus taught?

Contention II: Justification and Sacraments

First of all, my opponent is using epistles here. While I will not deny the argument solely off that basis, I do not think that this evidence would be sufficient to negate the resolution. Now, on to my actual argument. First, let us look at 2 Corinthians 5:21:

"(21) Eum, qui non noverat peccatum, pro nobis peccatum fecit, ut nos efficeremur iustitia Dei in ipso." (Biblia Sacra Vulgata)

"(21) God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (NIV)

I congratulate my opponent for his usage of the word "imputation", which is a word so uncommon even I didn't know it. Now on to actual analysis. My opponent first asserts that justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God. However, this is merely an assertion. Nowhere does it say in 2 Corinthians 5:21 that the perfect righteousness of God would be imputated to us, that is a complete non sequitur. We can become actually righteous through the grace of God, so this claim fails. In fact, let's look at some scripture referenced by my opponent recently, Romans 4:5:

"(5) ei vero, qui non operatur, sed credit in eum, qui iustificat impium, reputatur fides eius ad iustitiam" (Biblia Sacra Vulgata)

"(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (King James Version)

His faith is counted for righteousness? Sounds like that counters the theory that righteousness can only be imputed from God. I can provide further support if need be.

Contention III: Doctrine not following the scripture

I mean to my opponent no offense, but I do not even really see much of an argument here. I just see scriptural passages that are seemingly unrelated to my opponent's argument. He writes "While there have been good (humanly speaking) and moral men who have served as Roman Catholics.The Roman Catholic Church teaching about the office of the pope should be rejected because it is not "in continuity" with the teachings of the original church related to us in the New Testament.", then fails to back this up with his earlier and (as far as I can tell) unrelated scripture. I would appreciate clarification of this argument.

I thank my honorable opponent for this debate, and hope that this debate will be an educational experience. I hope that we affirm the resolution together. Since I have the characters, I will make a few notes relevant to the debate following this statement.

Information A: The Biblia Sacra Vulgata

I will use the version of the Biblia Sacra Vulgata found on the Vatican's website [1]. Although I have studied Latin for several years, to maximize readability for all and to ensure that I do not mistranslate a passage, I will use other translations. My reason for using the Biblia Sacra Vulgata is that it is the definitive Bible of the Roman Catholic Church.

Information B: CCC

I believe it will be necessary to use the CCC in this debate. I will again use the version found on the Vatican's website [2].

Information C: Burden of Proof

Since I am instigator and Pro, it might seem rather poor of me to explicitly shift the burden to my opponent. I do this because I believe that placing it on myself would create a massive, almost unupholdable burden as I would have to cite every teaching attributed to Jesus and show how the Roman Catholic Church adheres to it. On my opponent, the burden is much more manageable, and saves me the time of bringing up issues over which there is no controversy.



I want to thank my opponent for this debate again.

Most Catholics have never studied the official teachings of the Church of Rome—at most they have only studied the Bible and think there is no conflict.

Roman Catholic Contentions
Contention I: Salvation

A. Excluding those from salvation- At the very beginning of the 14th century, Pope Boniface VIII issued the famous Papal Bull, Unam Sanctam, which says in part:
"So, when the Greeks and others say that they were not committed to the care of Peter and his successors, they must confess that they are not of Christ's sheep, even as the Lord says in John, ‘There is one fold and one shepherd.'"-Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

Catholic Catechism, par. 870 "The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter [i.e., the pope] and by the bishops in communion with him(LG 8).

B. Works- Catholic doctrine teaches that works, e.g., participation in the sacraments are necessary for salvation.
Catholic Catechism, par. 1477 'This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.' [Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.]

Catholic doctrine teaches that we can earn salvation for ourselves and others by works.

C. Baptism- Infant Baptism in stead of adult baptism? Why do not adults need further baptism?

Contention II: Justification and Sacraments

A. False History- Clearly, the Council of Trent is claiming that the early church had always practiced private confession to a priest. However, as scholars of both backgrounds have pointed out, this simply is not true. This is one of the best examples of an ecumenical council committing an historical error.

"If any one denieth, either that sacramental confession was instituted, or is necessary to salvation, of divine right; or saith, that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Church hath ever observed from the beginning, and doth observe, is alien from the institution and command of Christ, and is a human invention; let him be anathema."-Council of Trent, session 14, canon 6

B. Christ is not Justification- Catholic doctrine teaches that Christ's work on the Cross was not sufficient to fully pay for our sins.

Catholic Catechism, par. 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification [burning in Purgatory, perhaps for millions of years], so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

C. Mass- Around 1000 A.D., attendance at Catholic Mass was made mandatory under penalty of mortal sin. In other words, -- according to the Roman Catholic Church -- if anyone misses just one CATHOLIC Mass (each Sunday and "holy days of obligation" such as Christmas) and does not have that sin forgiven by a Catholic Priest, that person (which includes all Protestants, Eastern Orthodox and Messianic Jews) will spend forever in Hell.

Contention III: Doctrine not following the scripture

A. Non-Inspired Books-"It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council. They are the following: of the Old Testament…Tobias, Judith…Ecclesiasticus…with Baruch…two books of Machabees, the first and second…If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts…let him be anathema."-Council of Trent, Session 4. The Council of Trent officially canonized what Protestants would call the Apocryphal books (i.e. non-inspired books).

B. You only need the church- Catholic Catechism, par. 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.

1) "The holy universal Church proclaims that God cannot truly be worshipped save within herself, and asserts that all they who are without her pale shall never be saved."
Pope Gregory the Great 540-604 A.D.

2) "That there is one Holy Catholic and apostolic Church we are compelled to believe and to hold, prompted by divine faith, and we do believe this firmly and confess it simply, outside of which there can be no salvation, or remission of sins…."
Pope Boniface VIII 1235-1303 A.D., became Pope in 1294


"The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary."
Pope Pius IX

Contention IV: Contraditions

A. Infallibility of Church and Pope- The Fourth Lateran Council vs. Vatican II- These two ecumenical councils (which are infallible according to Roman Catholic dogma) are at complete odds with one another.

-Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 3, Paragraph 1
-Guy Stair Sainty, The Teutonic Order of Holy Mary in Jerusalem
-Vatican II, Dignitatis Humanae, parts 2, 4, and 10

Catholic doctrine demands that believers must worship the Eucharist.

Catholic Catechism, par. 1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. 'The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.' [Paul VI, MF 56.]

B. Muslims- Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. 'The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.' [LG 16; cf. NA 3.]

C. Hell- Catholic Catechism, par. 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, 'eternal fire.' [Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG # 12.]
Debate Round No. 2


"Gloria in excelsis deo" - Great Doxlogy
The first thing I must do is apologize for this round. It will be a very poor showing for me. When I made this debate, I forgot I had to sit my final exams, and as a result I was not able to prepare as good a round as I intended. Hopefully I will be able to make up for it next round, but I again apologize, in particular to my esteemed opponent.

The resolution reads "Roman Catholics adhere to the teachings of Christ." Because I am pressed for time, I will have to disregard any non topical contentions this round. Hopefully I will be able to revisit them later.
Contention I: Salvation

A. Exluding those from salvation

This is non topical. I will respond to it next round, characters (and time) allowing.
B. Works

While topical, my opponent has not backed up this argument. He provides no scripture to show that anything is wrong with this.
C. Baptism

What's wrong with infant baptism?
Contention II: Justification and Sacraments

A. False History

This is non topical. Again, I will try to respond to it later, but I cannot this round.
B. Christ is not Justification

There is no conflict here. You will be saved (i.e. not be damned to hell). As it says in the CCC (1031):
"The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned."
This makes logical sense, as if you will remember for a moment Habakkuk 1:13 (note: I have not quoted the entire verse):
"(13) Mundi sunt oculi tui, ne videas malum; et respicere ad iniquitatem non poteris." (Biblia Sacra Vulgata)
"(13) Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing." (New International Version)
How then, can we as sinners be with God? Through purgatory. That is still achieving salvation.
C. Mass

This may be topical, but is not backed up. With luck, I will handle it next round.
Contention III: Doctrine not following the scripture

A. Non-inspired books

You assert these books are non-inspired. I assert that they are sacred and canonical in their entirety with all their parts. Enjoy being anathema.
B. You only need the church

This is again an assertion not backed up by scripture or analysis.
1) Not backed up.
2) Not backed up.
C. Supposed Idoltry

No scriptural evidence provided. This is an important contention I will deal with later.
Contention IV: Contradictions

Sadly I do not even have time to address these. I will next round.
In conclusion, I only really argued against one sub-contention, and for that I apologize. However, many of my opponent's arguments are unsupported, and often he just quotes something as the entirety of his argument. Since he has the burden of proof, this is important.
I'm sorry for my horrible round.


Thanks to my opponent for this debate. It has been interesting! And I hope He can continue properly. If He see's fit to debate this topic again I will accept. (`;')

*Note- I pull down most of my arguements from last round and add none. From those I will provide the rebuttal and affirmation of my claims. I will just leave out any I drop.

Rebuttal # 1: Contentions

Contention I - Salvation -

A. Exclusion from salvation -

My opponent feels here that it is non-topical. But that is not true. Rejecting the lost from finding salvation is not the teachings of Christ. Many will not be saved but no one has any right to claim who. My Round 2 contention says that if you do not accept (Peter) and ultimately the Catholic Church and doctrine you will not recieve salvation. I provide passages on the contrary:

KJV-R (Webster) 1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

KJV-R (Webster) 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live to themselves, but to him which died for them, and rose again.

KJV-R (Webster) 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

B. Works -

Works are a sign of the Holy Ghost working through you, your works are one of the causes of being saved not to earn it. Jesus earned your salvation already.

Eph.2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith, not of yourselves...not of works
Mk.10:25-27 Who can be saved? With men it is impossible
Rom.3:20a By deeds of law shall no flesh be justified in His sight
Rom.11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works
Gal.2:16 Justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of the law
2Tim.1:9 Saved us, not according to our works, but according to His grace
Tit.3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done

C. Baptism-

I do not have a problem with infant baptism. My problem is that after that infant grows up they will need further baptism. How can one baptize a infanat and expect that infant to know what has been done? Only a capable knowing person can be baptised. Is it right to baptise an infant and that infant not recieve further baptism after he accepts Christ? If the infant has not accepted Christ yet what purpose is the infant baptism? What if the infant never chooses Christ, is He still baptised? As we see what God says of our nature:

Eph.2:2,3,12 Ye were children of disobedience, children of wrath, aliens and strangers without Christ
Mat.7:13 Wide is the gate...that leadeth to destruction, and many... go in thereat
Jn.3:19 Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light
Jn.8:44 Ye are of your father the devil
Jn.8:47 Ye hear (God's Words) not, because ye are not of God

Contention II - Justification & Sacraments -

Jesus isnt Justification -

Acts 4:12 None other name...whereby we must be saved
1Tim.2:5 One mediator between God and men...Christ Jesus
Jn.3:16 God...gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should...have everlasting life
Jn.3:36b He that believeth not the Son shall not see life
Jn.8:24 If ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins
Jn.10:1 He that entereth not by the door...but climbeth up some other a thief and a robber
Jn.10:9 I am the door: by Me if any man enter saved
Jn.14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me

Contention III - Doctrine not following scripture -

B. Need RC Church -

I take the stance that any and all who believe in Christ and repented for salvetion are saved and forgiven with or without the Catholic church.

You can never lose it, even if you make mistakes and fall: All you need is Christ!

Jn.3:36a He that believeth on the Son...hath everlasting life
Jn.6:37 Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out
Jn.10:28 I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand
Rom.8:38,39 I am persuaded that [nothing] shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ Jesus
1Cor.5:5 Destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved
Heb.13:5b I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee
1Jn.5:13 Ye may know that ye have eternal life

C. Idolatry - "The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary."
Pope Pius IX

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him" (1 John 5:14-15).

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

Contention IV - Contradicitions -

A. Infallibility of Church & Pope -

I simply do not have scripture for this because it never says the Pope and Church is infallible or fallible. This is mere creation within the Church and false. I provide scriptures that say all are guilty and imperfect:

KJV-R (Webster) Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rebuttal # 2: Further Remarks


My opponent asserts that some of my contentions are off base and not realted to the topic at hand. I disagree, The topic is that Roman Catholic doctrine adheres to Jesus Christ's teaching within the NT. I think every claim I have presented has proved just the opposite. I have dropped quite a few claims to provide my oppoent room to discuss his position.Thanks (~;~)

Thanks again to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 3


"Pater noster qui es in caelis" - The Lord's Prayer

I really think I've ruined this debate almost beyond repair, so hopefully I'll be able to find a time where I can guarantee my ability to do a good job and rechallenge my opponent. I need to plan better.

I appreciate my opponent's not adding any more arguments, because he theoretically could have destroyed me by throwing out as many new contentions as possible and making it nearly impossible for me to address them all.

Contention I - Salvation

A. Exclusion from Salvation

This is completely topical, I must have been sleep-typing last round or I accidentally mixed this contention up with another. First, let us look at this logically. If Jesus' death alone was sufficient for all of us to be saved, then why does the Bible even exist? Why are there Christians? If Jesus' death alone brought us to salvation, we would have no need to know anything about him, because we would be guaranteed salvation no matter what.

Now I will show sciptural support that salvation is not guaranteed. Colossians 1:23 reads:

"(23) si tamen permanetis in fide fundati et stabiles et immobiles a spe evangelii, quod audistis, quod praedicatum est in universa creatura, quae sub caelo est, cuius factus sum ego Paulus minister." (Biblia Sacra Vulgata)

"(23) if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (New International Version)

What's the point of having faith if your salvation is guaranteed no matter what?

Also, 1 Timothy 5:15:

"(15) iam enim quaedam conversae sunt retro Satanam." (Biblia Sacra Vulgata)

"(15) Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan." (New International Version)

How can you turn away if salvation is guaranteed?

James 1:12:

"(12) Beatus vir, qui suffert tentationem, quia, cum probatus fuerit, accipiet coronam vitae, quam repromisit Deus diligentibus se." (Biblia Sacra Vulgata)

"(12) Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. " (New International Version)

This clearly shows that if you don't remain true, salvation is not guaranteed. I can provide more passages if needed, but I've already used too many characters on this one contention.

B. Works

Probably the strongest support that I can provide for my position would be Matthew 25:31-45, "The Sheep and the Goats". It's quite long, so for a change I'll only quote it from the New International Version.

"(31)“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. (32)All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (33) He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
(34) “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. (35)For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, (36)I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? (38) When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? (39) When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
(41) “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (42) For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, (43) I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
(45) “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’” (New International Version)

Notice how in this passage the only criterion for determining eternal reward or eternal punishment is works.

Also, look at Luke 13:14, I'm running low on characters because of that last bit and can't quote it.

C. Baptism

That's why you have Confirmation. If you want to abandon the Church, that's your chance. Reading the CCC (1285) we see:

"Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the "sacraments of Christian initiation," whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace."

Contention II - Justification and Sacraments

A. Jesus and Justification

I don't see how this even addresses my argument, to be honest, it just looks like a wall of scripture. Like your own quote from the CCC said "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation". There seems to be no issue.

Contention III - Doctrine not following scripture

B. Need the Roman Catholic Church

Belief in Christ will not ensure your salvation no matter what, as I have shown in Contention I (B should probably fall under Contention I in terms of subject). I'm running low on characters now, so no Biblia Sacra Vulgata (no one would have probably read it anyway). Mark 13:13 says:

"(13) Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." (NIV)

Implies if you don't stand firm to the end, you will not be saved.

Romans 2:6-8:

"(8) God will repay each person according to what they have done. (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." (NIV)

Pretty straightforward.

Galatians 6:7-9:

"(7) Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. (8) Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. (9) Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." (NIV)

If you sow good deads, you will reap eternal reward.

C. Idolatry

I challenge my opponent to provide a more reliable source than a singular quote from Pope Pius IX. A general defense of the Catholic tradition of praying to saints will be provided.

1 Timothy 2:1-4:

"I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people- (2) for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. (3)This is good, and pleases God our Savior, (4) who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (NIV)

James 15:16

"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." (NIV)

Contention IV - Contradictions

A. Infallibility of Church and Pope

I never thought it possible that someone could believe the Bible infallible yet reject the possibility of the Pope being infallible (at least in theory). As people, the Pope and members of the Church are capable of sinning/failing. When it comes to official dogmatic teachings, however, they are guided by the Holy Spirit to be infallible.


I don't know what I was thinking when I said that one contention that was topical was not, but I do actually believe Contention IV to be somewhat non-topical.

Out of characters.


I appreciate my opponents time and thank him!

I appreciate my opponent's busy schedule. To make this debate more beneficial I shall drop all my contentions to Three keys points.

Contention I - Salvation

A. Exclusion from Salvation/Need Catholic Church/Works

:What's the point of having faith if your salvation is guaranteed no matter what?:
Your salvation is not guaranteed unless you believe and have faith. Salvation is for the repentant man to Christ, any and all, no matter what Church or doctrine.

KJV-R (Webster) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

:How can you turn away if salvation is guaranteed?:
Many shall lose faith and turn into the flesh. But anyone who called upon the name of Lord shall receive salvation. The works show through a saved man not the works for salvation. I also know that the Lord and the Holy Ghost does not work in you if you never produce good works. That is a true hint of non-salvation.

KJV-R (Webster) Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. James 1:12:

:This clearly shows that if you don't remain true, salvation is not guaranteed. I can provide more passages if needed, but I've already used too many characters on this one contention:

My opponent is confused. A man who has been saved and accepted Jesus Christ will always have Jesus Christ. Thier deeds may become dry and thier ways may become darker but they never lose Jesus. Once you are saved you are always saved. I dare my opponent to show that saved people will lose it? I agree with my opponent to a degree because Christ will work through you and your deeds will show. These works are not nessasary to be intentional because the Holy Ghost influences you. Though works for salvation is personnal planning for these works and they are not genuine. The works come from the Holy Ghost.

KJV-R (Webster) 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Contention III - Doctrine not following scripture

C. Idolatry

:I challenge my opponent to provide a more reliable source than a singular quote from Pope Pius IX. A general defense of the Catholic tradition of praying to saints will be provided.:

"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." (NIV)

First in this passage we see it says pray to each other not to just Popes and Preist! I agree we should all prayer for one another daily. But no man need to confess his sin to another nor need another to intercede between him and Jesus. This also includes praying to Saints and Mary! They are not anyway to salvation only Christ Jesus is. Only Jesus and the Holy Ghost can intercede and answer your prayers.

KJV-R (Webster) John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

KJV-R (Webster) Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things to God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

KJV-R (Webster) James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

KJV-R (Webster) Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Contention III - Contradictions

A. Infallibility of Church and Pope

:I never thought it possible that someone could believe the Bible infallible yet reject the possibility of the Pope being infallible (at least in theory). As people, the Pope and members of the Church are capable of sinning/failing. When it comes to official dogmatic teachings, however, they are guided by the Holy Spirit to be infallible.:

KJV-R (Webster) 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

The doctrine of the "infallible interpreter" implies that God did not make Himself clear.

"For the prophet and the priest are defiled: and in my house I have found their wickedness, saith the Lord." (Jer. 23:11).


I think I have resolved that the Roman Catholic Teaching do not adhere to Jesus Christ's teachings. I thank my opponent and send it back to him! basics/salvation.html
Debate Round No. 4


AlwaysMoreThanYou forfeited this round.


I thank my opponent for this debate. Hopefully we can do it again. My opponent did not have time so the debate did not turn out as planned.

All points from previous rounds brought down.

Roman Catholic does not adhere to Jesus Christ's teachings.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by AlwaysMoreThanYou 5 years ago
That's probably the fault of my regrettable forfeit. Want to debate this?
Posted by 1dustpelt 5 years ago
The only vote on here is a votebomb. That is unsettling.
Posted by ScottyDouglas 5 years ago
@Always I think I won. I stuck it out and invested time in this. Though the debate never got going real good and I think these debates are not enough to truely discuss this topic properly. I think we should make a topic of such in the Forums and there we can have a full proper discussion. If you so choose I will be there.
Posted by AlwaysMoreThanYou 5 years ago
Even though I forfeited, I still think that I could have won.
Posted by ScottyDouglas 5 years ago
Catholics did not write the scripture. HA!

But anyways that last Ore that voted was Bombing. Pro forfeited and did not even rebuttal my claims at all. I have no clue what he was talking about.
Posted by gothemknight911 5 years ago
I would like to see NickTheGrapist take the challenge. I think if he dives into scripture using typology and draw parallels, he could prove the chair of peter in the bible, that Mary is predicted as are spiritual mother, praying to saints. Protestants need to remember that the bible was written by Catholics, and everything that the Catholic Church teaches is 100% in line with scripture.
Posted by ScottyDouglas 5 years ago
@Nick why dont you challenge me then.....
Posted by ScottyDouglas 5 years ago
How so??
Posted by AnalyticArizonan 5 years ago
This debate was very unsettling.
Posted by NickTheGrapist 5 years ago
Why not refer to the Catechism's sin section for some of his contentions? Clearly the opponent doesn't know the doctrine of the Catholic church. I laughed a couple times reading his contentions.

For one, i believe you refuted his works statement. Why not just believe in Jesus Christ, and kill yourself as to save yourself (and God) unnecessary pain and immediately go to Heaven?
Because faith without works means nothing.
Secondly, i believe he also said something about the apparent "idolatry" of saints.
We must remember that we pray to the saints to intercede for us. In simpler terms, when a Baptist asks the Church to pray for a family member, that is asking the rest of the Church to intercede as well. The same is held true when Catholics pray the "Hail Mary", asking Mary to intercede for us. Protestants must realize that interceding is not worshipping; It's asking for prayers to the prayer's cause. This is in no way idolatry, as Baptists are just as guilty as Catholics if this were somehow true.

Third... I don't quite understand the Baptism contention. We as the parents of our child baptize them to remove "Original Sin", the sin of Adam and Eve. When the child is in 8th or 9th grade, after studying the beliefs of Catholicism, they are then confirmed-- AS LONG AS THEY AGREE TO BE CONFIRMED. These sacraments are the Holy Grace of God to help us, as imperfect human beings, to be inspired (just as the Apostles were by the most Holy Spirit), and continue the works of Jesus Christ our savior.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: vote removed
Vote Placed by AnalyticArizonan 5 years ago
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: A very unsettling debate. Con got his point across better than Pro.