The Instigator
Anthonest
Pro (for)
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The Contender
jp7433
Con (against)
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The Roman Republic was more progressive than Classical Greece

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/14/2015 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 814 times Debate No: 75253
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
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Anthonest

Pro

R1 Acceptance

RULES:

1. The Burden of proof is on pro.

2. If a point is not effectively rebuttled it continues to stand.

RESOLUTION

Resolved: The Roman Republic was more progressive than Classical Greece in 220 BC.

DEFINITIONS

Progressive:
a : of, relating to, or characterized by progress
b : making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities
c : of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression
jp7433

Con

Hello,

I do hope this will be a great debate on a topic I find very interesting.

As Pro will bear the burden of proof, I will endeavour to rebut his/her points and perhaps add a few of my own.

Thank-you for what I hope to be a wonderful debate, I wish you great luck.
Debate Round No. 1
Anthonest

Pro

I will be arguing pro for the resolution resolved: The Roman Republic was more progressive than Classical Greece in 220 BC. At the height of the Roman Republic (Before there conquests of Greece in 146 BC) they were undoubtedly more progressive or forward thinking than Greece at the time Politically, in there education, women's rights (and overall equality) ranging from internal laws and there provinces. Rome is more progressive for the following reasons, Romes education, women rights, advanced government. Sources will be listed below.

1. Roman Education, Rome's education system was far more advanced than Greece. If education is for the purpose of equipping generations with the tools they will need in the future, Rome did that far more effectively than Greece did. At the height of the Roman Republic and later the Roman Empire, the Roman educational system gradually found its final form. Formal schools were established, which served paying students; very little that could be described as free public education existed.[1] Both boys and girls were educated, though not necessarily together.[1] Roman students were taught (especially at the elementary level) in similar fashion to Greek students, sometimes by Greek slaves who had a penchant for education.[1] But differences between the Greek and Roman systems emerge at the highest tiers of education. Roman students that wished to pursue the highest levels of education went to Greece to study philosophy, as the Roman system developed to teach speech, law and gravitas.[2] As i stated before if the purpose is to equip a generation perusing a higher level of education rather than 'philosophy' does just that. This point stands as the voters should not favor someone who advocates that philosophy should be perused rather than higher education. Due to the extent of Rome's power, the methodology and curriculum used in Roman education was copied in its provinces, and thereby proved the basis for education systems throughout later Western civilization.

2. Women's rights, Roman women undoubtedly had a higher level of freedom than there Greek counterparts. In ancient Greece, women had no legal person hood and were assumed to be part of the oikos headed by the male kyrios. Until marriage, women were under the guardianship of their father or other male relative, once married the husband became a woman"s kyrios. As women were barred from conducting legal proceedings, the kyrios would do so on their behalf.[3] Athenian women had limited right to property and therefore were not considered full citizens, as citizenship and the entitlement to civil and political rights was defined in relation to property and the means to life.[4] Freeborn women in ancient Rome were citizens (cives),[5] Exceptional women who left an undeniable mark on history range from the semi-legendary Lucretia and Claudia Quinta, whose stories took on mythic significance; fierce Republican-era women such as Cornelia, mother of the Gracchi, and Fulvia, who commanded an army and issued coins bearing her image; women of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, most prominently Livia, who contributed to the formation of Imperial mores; and the empress Helena, a driving force in promoting Christianity.[6] The published letters of Cicero, for instance, reveal informally how the self-proclaimed great man interacted on the domestic front with his wife Terentia and daughter Tullia, as his speeches demonstrate through disparagement the various ways Roman women could enjoy a free-spirited sexual and social life.[7] Unlike in ancient Greece, women were allowed to divorce as they were citizens and not treated as property in ancient Greece. According to the historian Valerius Maximus, divorces were taking place by 604 BCE or earlier, and the law code as embodied in the mid-5th century BCE by the Twelve Tables provides for divorce. Divorce was socially acceptable if carried out within social norms (mos maiorum). By the time of Cicero and Julius Caesar, divorce was relatively common and "shame-free," Classical Roman law did not allow any domestic abuse by a husband to his wife, unlike the women of property in Greece, domestic abuse was fully legal.[8] Some and perhaps many girls went to a public primary school. Ovid and Martial imply that boys and girls were educated either together or similarly, and Livy takes it for granted that the daughter of a centurion would be in school.[9] As i have demonstrated women had much more freedom than in ancient Greece, the voters should not favor someone who stands against the point of womens rights.

3. It is a common misconception that Western Government originated from democratic Greece, this however, is not true. Western Government originated from the Roman Republic and its representative democracy. One of today's great powers, the United States, is a representative democracy, a republic, much like Rome, not Greece. In Greece, only free, land owning, native-born men could be citizens entitled to the full protection of the law in a city-state (later Pericles introduced exceptions to the native-born restriction). In most city-states, unlike the situation in Rome, social prominence did not allow special rights. Sometimes families controlled public religious functions, but this ordinarily did not give any extra power in the government. In Athens, the population was divided into four social classes based on wealth while Rome was chalked up to a much more equality friendly - 2. The government is more advanced than ancient Greece because the idea of representative democracy is a much more complex system rather than the primitive mass-voting sessions of direct democracy of Greece. Direct democracy is unfeasible and inefficient with a large population, this is a problem Greece could not fix before the Roman conquests of 146 BCE. The lower class in Greece was trampled and shamed by the wealthy, so a true democracy could never be achieved. In Rome, the lower class were perfectly represented by the Plebeian Council. The Plebeian Council was the principal popular assembly of the ancient Roman Republic. It functioned as a legislative assembly, through which the plebeians (commoners) could pass laws, elect magistrates, and try judicial cases. As I have shown Rome's government was much more complex and efficient than ancient Greece, the voters should not favor someone who defends a primitive and inefficient form of government.

Sources:

1. Oxford Classical Dictionary, Edited by Simon Hornblower and Antony Spawforth, Third Edition. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 1996
2. The Legacy of Roman Education (in the Forum), Nanette R. Pacal, The Classical Journal, Vol. 79, No. 4. (Apr. " May, 1984)
3. Blundell, Sue (1995). Women in ancient Greece, Volume 1995, Part 2. Harvard University Press. p. 114. ISBN 978-0-674-95473-1.
4. Gerhard, Ute (2001). Debating women"s equality: toward a feminist theory of law from a European perspective. Rutgers University Press. p. 35. ISBN 978-0-8135-2905-9.
5. Roman Citizenship (Oxford University Press, 1979), pp. 211 and 268
6. Unless otherwise noted, this introductory overview is based on Beryl Rawson, "Finding Roman Women," in A Companion to the Roman Republic (Blackwell, 2010), p. 325.
7. In reference to his character assassination of the notorious Clodia; see Pro Caelio.
8. A casebook on Roman Family Law, Frier and McGinn, pg. 95.
9. Rawson, Children and Childhood in Roman Italy, pp. 197-198
jp7433

Con

jp7433 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Anthonest

Pro

Anthonest forfeited this round.
jp7433

Con

jp7433 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Anthonest

Pro

Anthonest forfeited this round.
jp7433

Con

jp7433 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Anthonest 2 years ago
Anthonest
Politically, possibly. I disagree with you that it would automatically be in Greece's favor, socially, Rome was much more developed, for instance Rome had more progressive womens rights. But ill save my points for the debate.

I mean progressive on a civilization wide scale. Socially, economically, politically, etc.
Posted by Subutai 2 years ago
Subutai
Define "progressive". Greece was a direct democracy, whereas Rome was a representative democracy, both of which were very progressive political systems for the time. Scholastically, Greece was far ahead of Rome, especially in theoretical fields. Rome mainly excelled in things like engineering and governing. This could be considered a vote in Greece's favor. However, by today's standards, both were definitely very socially conservative.
Posted by hatshepsut 2 years ago
hatshepsut
But progressive by what criteria?
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