The Instigator
Apollo.11
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
nobody40
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The San Antonio Spurs Will Be the 2012 NBA Champions.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Apollo.11
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/25/2012 Category: Sports
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,677 times Debate No: 23845
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (3)

 

Apollo.11

Pro

Resolution: The San Antonio Spurs will win the 2012 NBA Championship.

I'm going with Dirk's prediction. Spurs all the way.

Please, no semantics.*


STRUCTURE:

I. Round 1 will be acceptance. My opponent should also use this round to choose the team he/she believes will win the championship.

II. Round 2 will be for arguments/rebuttals.

III. Round 3 will be for rebuttals and defenses. No new arguments (or rebuttals for Con) may be presented in this round.*

________________

*Failure to adhere to these simple rules should result in an auto-loss.



NOTE: The time to argue will be only 24 hours to minimize the effect that new developments in the OKC/Spurs series have on the debate.
nobody40

Con

I will gratefully accept this challenge and thank my opponent for giving me the opportunity to debate this. I would like to point out that the prompt is "The San Antonio Spurs will be the 2012 NBA champions", and since I am con I do not have to argue what team will win, I simply have to argue that the Spurs will not win. However, if I had to choose a champion I would have to go with the Miami Heat. However, like I said, I simply have to argue that the Spurs will not win the NBA title. I look forward for what should be a good debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Apollo.11

Pro

Resolution: The San Antonio Spurs will win the 2012 NBA Championship.

Introduction

My opponent has chosen to argue for the Miami Heat, so I will make my comparisons between the two.

There are two primary ways to affirm the resolution and predict that a team will do will:

1) Success thus far

2) Assurances of future success

So I will present my argument in two parts. In the first I will compare the regular season and playoff performances of the Spurs and the Heat. In the Second, I will look at the factors that will determine whether the same level of performance will continue.



I. Past Performance [1]

A. Comparison of 2012 Regular Season Performance

OFFENSIVE STATISTICS:

The Spurs had an incredible regular season, finishing 1st in the West, tied for first in the league.

They averaged 104 PPG (2nd in the NBA) compared to Miami's meager 98 (7th). And they, unlike high-scoring Denver, were able to maintain a solid defensive structure, only allowing their opponent to score 96 PPG. This gives them the second highest win margin (7.16 points) in the NBA, beating Miami.

The Spurs also had the highest FG% in the NBA (48%), ahead of Miami's 4th place 46.9%. The Spurs also led the league in 3-PT % with an impressive 39%. Miami was left in the dust, 9th overall.
Finally, the Spurs were fourth in Assists per game. Miami was 21st....21st.

DEFENSIVE STATISTICS:

In terms of rebounding (difference), this is the ONLY statistic in which Miami does better. How much better you ask? Miami was 6th in the NBA. San Antonio was tied for 7th, hardly a notable difference.

SAS was 7th in Blocks per game. Miami was, again, ......21st, 2 places ahead of Charlotte, the worst team in the NBA.

So we have now established that San Antonio is better than Miami in every major statistic except for rebounding. They finished the season with 4 more wins, and four fewer losses than Miami, ending on a 10-game win streak. Miami won only 6 of their last 10 games by comparison.

B. Comparison of 2012 Post-Season Performance

Before I get to the stats, there are two streaks to mention. The first is the 15-year streak. For the past 15 years, the Spurs have gone to playoffs. This is the longest playoff streak in the NBA (with Dallas at second with 12). The second is an 18-game streak. The Spurs are on an 18-game win streak, with a perfect playoff record.

PPG:

SA: 103--1st
Miami: 95

Win Margin:

SA: 14 pts.--1st
Miami: 9.9 pts.

FG%:

SA: 49%--1st
Miami: 45.6%

Record:

SA: 8-0 --1st
Miami: 8-3

3-pt %:

SA: 43%!!!--1st
Miami: 33%

APG:

SA: 24 ---1st
Miami: 17

In every major statistic, not only does SA beat Miami by a massive margin, they beat everyone in the playoffs. They're only team with a perfect record, sweeping both the Clippers and Utah.

The last time the Spurs lost a game was April 11th.[4]



II. Future Success

A. Coaching

Great coaching is essential to winning games. Coaches that have shown they cannot finish key series (*cough* Spoelstra *cough*) in the past are unlikely to do so in the future.

SA's Greg Popovich was the 2012 Coach of the Year. He has numerous championships to add to that.

Meanwhile in South Beach, there were talks of dropping Erik Spoelstra during the Pacer's series. In fact, he is unable to control his players. D Wade yelled and hit Spoelstra during a game in that series. This is a cohesive, well-coached unit?

Greg Popovich is the longest tenured coach, not only in the NBA, but in ANY of the four major sports. That's called experience, experience that will ensure SA's continued success.

B. Veteran Players [2]

Secondly, teams that have veteran players with playoff experience are much better suited to win there. San Antonio has more combined playoff experience than any team in the NBA.

Tin Duncan (14 years/14 playoffs)

Tony Parker (11 years/11playoffs)

Manu Ginobli (9 years/9 playoffs)

Matt Bonner (7 years/6 playoffs)

Some of the players have spent their entire careers for SA and gone to the playoffs all that time.

C. Depth of Bench [3,5]

Over an entire season, a single player's contribution can be noted. But over a series, depending on two or even three players to win will backfire if there is no assurance of success if either player struggles. San Antonio does not have this problem. They have an EXTREMELY competent bench ready to pick up should Ginobli, Parker, or Duncan struggle. They have the BEST BENCH IN THE NBA. That is unquestionable. Miami has arguably one of the worst benches in the NBA.

Points Per Game:

SA: 1st in the NBA (42 points)
Miami: 28th in the NBA! 28th! (24 points).

RPG:

SA: 4th
Miami: 15th

Assists:

SA: 2nd
Miami: 29th!

Steals:

SA: 9th
Miami: 21st

Blocks:

SA: 13th
Miami: 23rd

FG%:

SA: 1st
Miami: 23rd

3-pt %:

SA: 3rd
Miami: 7th

FT%:

SA: 6th
Miami: 12th

Minutes played:

SA: 1st
Miami 13th

This is another key stat. Miami is so overly reliant on their two bigs (Wade and LeBron), that should any of them struggle, their bench doesn't have the skill or playing time to pick up the slack. This problem was HUGE in the Pacer's series. The Miami bench is terrible. Plain and simple. You don't win the NBA championship with the 28th best bench in the NBA.

LeBron has more rings than the Miami bench has good players.



__________________

1. http://www.nba.com...

2. http://espn.go.com...

3. http://www.hoopsstats.com...

4. http://www.nba.com...

5. http://espn.go.com...

nobody40

Con

I would like to point out a few things in order to attack my opponent's case:

Miami's defense is far superior to the Spurs, only allowing 85 points per game while their offense averages 98.

The edge in rebounding was arguably what led Miami over the Pacers in the final 3 games of the series, so taking rebounding as a meager stat (especially compared to blocks) is simply being ignorant.

The fact that the Spurs have made the playoffs 15 years in a row is completely irrelevant as to whether or not they would win the title.

The veteran players that the Spurs have can arguably hurt them. They're three best players all have at least 9 seasons in the NBA now, and Duncan is clearly performing at a lower level every year. They're age will make it tough to keep pushing through for the rest of the playoffs as younger and quicker teams (like the Thunder) run the court against them.

Time for my own contentions:

The Heat have better players. When ESPN ranked the top 500 NBA players, they ranked Lebron #1 and Wade #3. The best player the Spurs have? 34-year-old Manu Ginobili, ranked 18th. You don't win an NBA title when your best player is worse than 17 other NBA players, especially when your competition has 2 of the top 3 players.

Miami has youth. As I touched up on, the Heat are young and the Spurs are old. Lebron is a year or two away from his prime and Wade is only about a year behind his. Bosh--when healthy--is at the ideal age of 27. The Spur's two best players are 34 and 35. This is great when you're sweeping teams and have a lot of rest, but when you have what should be a long series against a great young team like the Thunder and THEN try to play another young team like the Heat, you're oldies are gonna get worn out.

Miami has better defense. This is a no-brainer, the Heat allowed only 85 points per game while scoring 95. Also, as I said, they have better rebounding, which is a stat that far too many fans overlook as oftentimes it is key in not only a game but a series.

The Spurs have no "go-to". Miami can easily pass the ball to Lebron (or even Wade if they have to) with only a few seconds left and watch magic happen. But when was the last time you saw Manu make a clutch buzzer beater or Duncan put the team on his back in the final two minutes? If these teams play it will surely result in close games, and the Heat have two great players to get the ball to when the game is on they line. The Spurs? No.
Debate Round No. 2
Apollo.11

Pro

I thank my opponent or his argument.

I will admit though, I am disappointed he chose not to give an actual argument.

Dropped/Conceded Arguments:

Regular Season Performance

1. Season Record

2. PPG

3. Points allowed

4. Win Margin

5. FG%

6. 3-pt %

7. APG

8. Last 10 games

9. 18 (now 19) game win streak

Post-Season Performance

1. PPG

2. Win Margin

3. FG%

3. 3-PT %

4. Record

5. APG

6. Perfect Playoff Record (extended last night with a win against OKC)

Coaching

1. 2012 Coach of the year

2. Spoelstra's inability to control his players

3. Spoelstra's inability to finish key series

4. Popovich's experience

Depth of the Bench

1. PPG

2. RPG

3. APG

4. SPG

5. BPG

6. FG%

7. 3-PT%

8. FT%

9. Minutes Played

10. Miami's dependence on their two bigs

11. Lack of performance from Miami's bench

Yes....those are just the arguments my opponent ignored. Yes. He dropped 29 of my points. Now for my defenses.


Defenses:

Contention 1: Miami's win percentage

Con states: "Miami's defense is far superior to the Spurs, only allowing 85 points per game while their offense averages 98."

Con gives no source for this false claim. Upon verification, that statistic is a lie. Miami does average 98.4 points per game; however, their opponents average 92.5 PPG for a win margin of 5.99 PPG.[1] San Antonio has an average win margin of 7.16 points. This contention falls flat.

Contention 2: Rebounding

Con states: "The edge in rebounding was arguably what led Miami over the Pacers in the final 3 games of the series, so taking rebounding as a meager stat (especially compared to blocks) is simply being ignorant."

There are problems with this contention:

1. This claim has no justification in fact, nor has Con given any

2. Even assuming veracity:

a. This performance is not consistent

b. They had the edge over the Pacers, not the Spurs

Contention 3: Spurs Playoff Streak

"The fact that the Spurs have made the playoffs 15 years in a row is completely irrelevant as to whether or not they would win the title."

It demonstrates the Spurs' ability, more so than any other team in the league, to make it to the playoffs and to do well in them. This also relates to the coaching of Popovich, who has been the coach of the Spurs each of those 15 years. His experience, not only in coaching (most of any of the 4 major sports), but with the Spurs, and with the Spurs during the playoffs gives them an advantage

Contention 4: Athletic Ability

"They're age will make it tough to keep pushing through for the rest of the playoffs as younger and quicker teams (like the Thunder) run the court against them."

HA! The Spurs beat OKC last night (with old man Ginobli adding 26 points). I don't need to say more.

My Opponent's Argument:

"When ESPN ranked the top 500 NBA players, they ranked Lebron #1 and Wade #3. The best player the Spurs have? 34-year-old Manu Ginobili, ranked 18th."

You are comparing the rank of the best player on the Heat to the third best player on the Spurs....and this is a fair comparison? And what justification does this comparison have? Upon what grounds can you say that LeBron and Wade alone can carry the team to victory, something they failed to do last year?

"You don't win an NBA title when your best player is worse than 17 other NBA players, especially when your competition has 2 of the top 3 players."

You're right. You win it for the 29 reasons I mentioned and Con ignored.

"Miami has youth. As I touched up on, the Heat are young and the Spurs are old. "

See above.

"but when you have what should be a long series against a great young team like the Thunder and THEN try to play another young team like the Heat, you're oldies are gonna get worn out."

HAHA! This is too funny.

http://scores.espn.go.com...

Listen to the first part of that: "So what you're saying is that the only difference between these two teams is youth vs. experience?"

SA won.

"Miami has better defense. This is a no-brainer, the Heat allowed only 85 points per game while scoring 95."

If only that statistic were true...

"Also, as I said, they have better rebounding, which is a stat that far too many fans overlook as oftentimes it is key in not only a game but a series."

The regular season difference in rebounding between the two teams was marginal. But SA's bench is 4th in rebounding, compared to Miami's 15th.

"The Spurs have no "go-to""

Tony Parker. Tim Duncan. Manu Ginobli. For threes, Matt Bonner. Even Gary Neal can step up. The entire SA bench.

"But when was the last time you saw Manu make a clutch buzzer beater or Duncan put the team on his back in the final two minutes?"

HAHA! Spurs were down by 9 at the end of the third last night. They scored 39 points in the fourth quarter to win. 39 points.

And when was the last time Wade made a clutch game-winner? He is notorious for his inability to make those shots.


Conclusion:

Con drops virtually every one of my arguments. His contention fall flat and his arguments are unjustified. He gives no sources and gives inaccurate stats. The way to vote is obvious.

______________________________

Extend sources. Numerical citations apply to sources from Round 2.

nobody40

Con

nobody40 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by nobody40 4 years ago
nobody40
I lost the debate, but Miami won the Finals, and the Spurs lost 4 straight to the young and quick Thunder. I am content :)
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 4 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
I guess not...
Posted by Buddamoose 4 years ago
Buddamoose
Tim Duncan is THE most underrated player in the NBA. He is going to be remembered as one of the most talented and professional big men to ever play basketball. Tim Duncan knows what it takes to win, period. The Heat, nor any other team in the playoffs have a player that is capable of controlling Duncan.

Just my two cents...
Posted by Apollo.11 4 years ago
Apollo.11
"They're age will make it tough to keep pushing through for the rest of the playoffs as younger and quicker teams (like the Thunder) run the court against them."

I lol'ed
Posted by BlackVoid 4 years ago
BlackVoid
1-0, and that was with 3 quarters of substandard play.
Posted by DebateBehemoth 4 years ago
DebateBehemoth
I dont think Heat will beat boston why cause every time the face.each other heat has.a.a
hard time ray allen Gets threes off the fastest in the nba
Posted by DebateBehemoth 4 years ago
DebateBehemoth
I disagree Ducan performes better every.year
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 4 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
Nobody's perfect.
Posted by Apollo.11 4 years ago
Apollo.11
Nah. Miami will beat Boston. Probably in a Game 7 (maybe game 6), but they will.
Posted by DebateBehemoth 4 years ago
DebateBehemoth
BOR and SAS will probably duke it out in the finals I thinkBOS wins my father thinks HEAT will be the champion and that it will be HEAT vs.OKC in the.finals
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Mrparkers 4 years ago
Mrparkers
Apollo.11nobody40Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by CiRrK 4 years ago
CiRrK
Apollo.11nobody40Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Contra 4 years ago
Contra
Apollo.11nobody40Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF