The Instigator
harrytruman
Pro (for)
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The Contender
petrakid
Con (against)
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The Sikhist God is the christian god

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/18/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 316 times Debate No: 85141
Debate Rounds (5)
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harrytruman

Pro

I will compare Sikhism scripture against biblical scriptures:

Sikhism scripture:
"Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light. By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all."

Biblical scripture:
John 8:12:
"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

Sikhism Scripture:
"God is One. He is the Supreme Truth."

Biblical scripture:
1 Timothy 2:5:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".
petrakid

Con

Let me rebut your use of Holy Scripture (Bible) as a comparison to Sikhism text:

You quote John 8:12 (KJV) and 1 Tim 2:5 (KJV)

The obvious elephant-sized difference here is that the Sikhism text is referring to an INTERNAL force within the human being (truth, a light that is radiant within all). The Scripture you quote points quite clearly to an EXTERNAL being - a living force which is from outside the human being.

Many religions always point INWARD, or start from the inside and move out, while Christianity always points OUTWARD, or better, starts from the outside and moves to the inside.

Here is a famous quote from Guru: "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim, so whose path shall I follow? I shall follow the path of God." But the conclusion he draws, "I shall follow the path of God" does not parallel Christianity in any way. Why? Because the question "what 'god'" has to be answered. Is it the god of the mind, a collaboration of gods from many sought religions (universalism)? Is it the God who came to earth, who suffered and was crucified on the cross to forgive the sins of the world, who rose again on the 3rd day, who ascended into the heavens and will return again to defeat the devil and take His people home? What 'god'?

A quote from St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians (ESV): "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2:8

It's important that you understand here, and in other places, that Scripture will always point to salvation, illumination, truth, understanding, wisdom, etc. as things that come from beyond the human mind/body/soul and that they in fact come from God, who is an "unseen" (see next paragraph) but very active and living being (person) who reveals Himself in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And when a human being receives these 'gifts', that he is brought up with God both temporally and eternally in both body and soul. This is not a path he starts and completes by his own will, but it is a fully completed action, done by God for His people. When Christ died on the cross, the sins of the world were forgiven and His children were saved, those whom He know before the creation of the world.

And here's the true clincher: Sikhism teaches that 'God' or Waheguru is unseen, but the Christian God IS seen as He is made manifest in Jesus Christ (truly/fully God and truly/fully man).

Humans do not possess a divine spark but are totally dead on account of sin and evil. Only God can bring humanity into salvation and He did in by dying on the cross.

Sikhism also elevates the deeds of a person and judges the person - whether he be reincarnated or recycled - upon his good and bad deeds. This is not Christian. Yes, God judges all humanity (not just Christians) by their works, but Christians are judged on account of Christ's work (obedient death and resurrection), and in a forensic sense, Christians are no longer held accountable (in heaven) for their bad deeds. Christians believe sin goes much deeper than known deeds, but that sin is at the very core of our being and we cannot NOT sin, which is why Christ had to die. The word "propitiation", found in a few places in the New Testament, make this clear. God made atonement for our sins, and in so doing, He satisfied His own demand for judgment against sin.

The means for salvation, in Sikhism (if we call it that), is good deeds and battling against the vices (greed, ego, lust, etc.). In Christianity we don't fight against the vices for salvation's sake, but because, as saved people, we are empowered by God's Holy Spirit to live lives which reflect Christ and His life. We live sacrificially, meaning that we deny our own passions out of honor for God and love for the neighbor, but we do it BECAUSE we are saved, not in order to achieve salvation.

God does not look at our works and determine if we should receive His blessings or not, but He looks at Christ, His Son, and on account of His perfect sacrifice, gives us ALL the blessings of heaven forever! Worrying about whether or not we receive the gifts of God is on account of lack of faith, but that lack of faith does not prevent God from giving the whole world His good and gracious gifts. The world receives His gifts regardless. Christians, by God's grace, recognize this reality and can thank and praise God alone for His eternal salvation and supplying of our needs.

Summary: The difference between Sikism and Christianity is night and day! As with most religions in the world Sikism always turns attention to the works of the human being, be they good or bad. Christianity always looks to the work of God the Son - Jesus Christ - and His work done for us. And faith is about trusting in God's work and not our own worthiness.
Debate Round No. 1
harrytruman

Pro

No, it Cleary says "you are the light", as in God, God is the light of the world, but even if it was referring internal light, th is would not be wrong, because the bible refers to us as smaller lights. I also found a good Sikhism scripture:

"It is a woman who keeps the race going; we should not consider women cursed and condemned, from women are born leaders and rulers."

- Guru Nanak, Founder of Sikhism

Maybe the chauvinistic pig Christians should go learn a thing or two from the Sikhists,
petrakid

Con

Simple response...

Christ says that "I Am the way and the truth and the life" and that "no one comes to the Father except by Me."

It is clear that the 'way' He is speaking of is His death on the cross. Unless one believes this, he does not follow the way of truth or life.
Debate Round No. 2
harrytruman

Pro

I was arguing that the Sikhists God is our God, you mistake this debate for another one you are debating Amigo.
petrakid

Con

To the contrary, God as revealed in Scripture does not allow for other ways. The only way that the god as taught in Sakhism could be the same God that Christians worship is if the teachings of Sakhism surrounded Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection. Do they? No. That fact alone confirms that the teachings are not the same and those who follow the teachings of Sakhism do not worship God. For as Schrpture says, all the law and the prophets point to or speak of or reveal Christ.
Debate Round No. 3
harrytruman

Pro

Yeah you see this is your issue, this will be another debate, here is more scriptures:
The Sikhists God is the Christian God:
Sikhism scripture:
"Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light. By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all."

Biblical scripture:
John 8:12:
"Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

Sikhism Scripture:
"God is One. He is the Supreme Truth." (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1).

Biblical scripture:
1 Timothy 2:5:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".
Sikhism Scripture:
"There is only the One Supreme Lord; there is no other at all. Spirit, soul and body, all belong to Him; whatever pleases His Will, comes to pass." (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 45).
Sikhism Scripture: Piece 1:
"There is only the One Supreme Lord; there is no other at all."
Ephesians 4:4-6
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all." (NKJV)
2 Samuel 7:22:
"Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Sikhism Scripture: Piece 2:
"Spirit, soul and body, all belong to Him;"
Ezekiel 18:4:
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die."
Sikhism Scripture: Piece 3:
"Whatever pleases His Will comes to pass."
Job 42:2:
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."
Sikhism Scripture:
"He is neither born and nor does He die." (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1).
Revelation 22:13:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
Isaiah 9:7
"Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end."(NIV)
Sikhism Scripture:
"Since You are my Lord and Master, what is there for me to fear? Who else should I praise besides You? You are the One and only, and because of You all things exist; there is nothing at all for me without You. O Father, I have seen that this world is poison. Save me O Lord of the Universe! Your Name is my only support. You know completely the condition of my mind; who else could I go to explain it? Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the whole world has gone crazy; One finds peace by receiving Naam. What shall I say? Unto whom shall I speak? Whatever I have to say, I say it to God. Everything which exists was created by You. You are my hope, forever and ever. If you bestow greatness, then it is Your greatness; here and hereafter, I meditate on You. God of Nanak is forever the Provider of peace; Your Name is my only strength" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 382).
Biblical Scripture:
Psalms 104:32-34
"He looks at the earth, and it trembles; He touches the mountains, and they smoke. I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have my being. Let my meditation be pleasing to Him; As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD.""
Psalm 9:1
"Those who know your name trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you."
Psalms 118:6
"The LORD is for me; I will not fear; What can man do to me?"
Psalm 103:13-14
"Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him. For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are but dust."
Psalms 18:2:
"The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower."
John 1:3
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
Sikhism Scripture:
"No one is anyone's companion; why have an ego? Only the Name of Lord is your Support which helps you cross over this world-ocean. I am just a poor mortal, You are my True Support O my Perfect True Guru. Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Yours, my mind becomes stable. Royal powers and wealth are just a web, they have no use at all. The Kirtan of the Lord's Praises is my support; this is the everlasting true wealth. As many are the pleasures of materialistic things, so many are the shadows they leave. The Gurmukhs sing of the Naam, which is the treasure of peace. You are the True Lord, the treasure of excellence O God, You are deep and profound. The Lord is the hope and support of Nanak's heart" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 398).
Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered"
Psalm 18:3 "I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from my enemies."
Psalm 144:1-3
"Blessed be the LORD, my rock "My lovingkindness and my fortress, My stronghold and my deliverer, My shield and He in whom I take refuge, Who subdues my people under me. O LORD, what is man, that You take knowledge of him? Or the son of man, that You think of him?"
Sikhism Scripture:
"He mercifully blesses with peace and bliss. The Divine Lord saves His child. God is kind and compassionate. He forgives all beings and creatures. I seek Your Sanctuary, O God, O Merciful to the meek. I am in ecstasy forever by meditating on the Supreme God. There is no other like the Merciful God. He is contained deep within each and everyone. He embellishes His devotees here and hereafter. God, It is Your nature to purify the sinners" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 866).
Biblical Scripture:
Hebrews 2:11
"because both the one who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified all have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers"
Psalm 27:10
"Even if my father and mother abandon me, the LORD will hold me close."
Romans 8:15
"The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."
Psalms 51:2:
"Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin."
Mathew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me."
Sikhism Scripture:
"God, the Primal Being, the great Provider is free of revenge and hate. I am a sinner; You are my Forgiver. The sinner, who finds no protection anywhere, becomes immaculate and pure if he comes to seek Your sanctuary. I have found peace by pleasing the true Guru (master). I have obtained all fruits and rewards embracing the Guru in my heart. I humbly bow to the Supreme Lord, the true Guru. The entire world, my mind, and my body are Yours. I come to see You when the veil of illusion is removed. You are my Lord and Master; You are the King of all. When it pleases Him, even dry wood becomes green. When it pleases Him, rivers flow across the desert sands. When it pleases Him, all fruits and rewards are obtained. Grasping hold of the Guru's feet, my anxiety is dispelled. I am unworthy and ungrateful, but He has been merciful to me. My mind and body have been soothed; the Ambrosial Nectar rains down in my mind. The Supreme Lord has become kind and compassionate to me. Servant Nanak while enraptured beholds the Lord" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1141).
Biblical Scripture:
Psalm 16:2
"I said to the LORD, "You are my Master! Every good thing I have comes from you."
Psalms 86:5
"For you, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy to all them that call on you."
Jooel 2:23
"Be glad, people of Zion, rejoice in the LORD your God, for he has given you the autumn rains because he is faithful. He sends you abundant showers, both autumn and spring rains, as before"
Romans 3:23:
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Sikhism Scripture:
"His heart is filled of greed, and he does not understand that the Messenger of Death is hovering over his head. Whatever one does in this world will come to face him in the afterlife; what can he do at the very last moment? (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1049)."
Biblical Scripture:
Luke 12:20-21:
"But God said to him, "Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided? So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
Sikhism Scripture:
"Some apply ceremonial marks to their foreheads, hold rosary beads in their hands, and wear religious robes. Some people think that the Lord is a toy to play with. If I am insane, then I am Yours, O Lord. How can people know my secret? I do not pick leaves as offerings and I do not worship idols. All services are useless without devotional worship of the Lord. I worship the true Guru; forever and ever, I surrender myself to Him. By such service, I find peace in the Kingdom of God. People say that Kabeer has gone insane. Only the Lord realizes the secret of Kabeer (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1158)."
Biblical Scripture:
Psalm 145: 1-2
"I will extol You, my God, O King, And I will bless Your name forever and ever. Every day I will bless You, And I will praise Your name forever and ever."
Psalm 115:3-5
"But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. Their idols are silver and gold, The work of man's hands. They have mouths, but they cannot speak; They have eyes, but they cannot see"
Jeremiah 10:3-7 "For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax"
-And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good."
Inasmuch as there is none like You, O Lord
(You are great, and Your name is great in might),
Who would not fear You, O King of the nations?
For this is Your rightful due.
For among all the wise men of the nations,
And in all their kingdoms,There is none like You."
Joshua 24:15:
"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
Sikhism Scripture:
"He established the Earth, the sky and the air, the water of the oceans, fire and food. He created the Moon, the stars and the Sun, night and day and mountains; He blessed the trees with flowers and fruits. He created the demigods, human beings and the seven oceans; He established the three worlds (life in water, on land and in the air) (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1399)."
Biblical Scripture:
Proverbs 3:19-20 "The LORD by wisdom founded the earth, By understanding He established the heavens. By His knowledge the deeps were broken up And the skies drip with dew.""
Revelation 4:11:
""You are worthy, O Lord,[a]
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist[b] and were created."
Sikhism Scripture:
"Sing the Praise of the Immaculate Lord; He is within all. The Almighty Lord controls everything; whatever He wills, comes to pass. He establishes and disestablishes everything in an instant; there is no other except Him. He pervades the continents, universe, islands and all worlds. He alone understands to whom God Himself provides wisdom; He becomes a pure and unstained being (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 706).
Isaiah 45:5
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me"
Psalm 145: 1-2
"I will extol You, my God, O King, And I will bless Your name forever and ever. Every day I will bless You, And I will praise Your name forever and ever."
Psalms 104:32-34
"He looks at the earth, and it trembles; He touches the mountains, and they smoke. I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have my being. Let my meditation be pleasing to Him; As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD.""
petrakid

Con

Again, if the written texts of the Sikist religion do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as God who died and rose again, then any comparison you try to make is moot. Christ Crucified is the foremost principle of the Christian faith, second only to Scripture being the infallible and inspired Written Word of God.

You keep trying to make comparisons between texes, but such comparisons are futile if you do not first acknowledge Christ crucified and risen.

A few possibly similar passages in the Bible, taken out of context and with no understanding, aren't proof that THE God of heaven and earth is the same God as taught in your book. It's just not that simple. God himself does not allow for such, and makes it clear that He is a jealous God, and that we are to have no other gods before him, and no other doctrines other than what He has revealed in scrioture.
Debate Round No. 4
harrytruman

Pro

The Sikhs have no issue believing that Jesus is the Messiah, they don't believe he is God, they believe he is the Son of God, but not God himself, which is apparently different. For example, the Old Testament does not acknowledge Jesus died and rose again, but you don't try to say that Yahweh is a false God, do you? You don't undermine it's being the Word of God do you? Neither should you do so with the Sikhism Scriptures.
petrakid

Con

The Old testament very much does teach Christ crucified and risen. I'll offer you one example, but there are literally thousands more.

Read isaiah 53.
Debate Round No. 5
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