The Instigator
Tadeusz
Pro (for)
The Contender
Plutarch
Con (against)

The Sith have a better and more realistic philosophy then the Jedi.

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Debate Round Forfeited
Tadeusz has forfeited round #4.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/20/2016 Category: Movies
Updated: 5 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 360 times Debate No: 95523
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

Tadeusz

Pro

Hello there, my name is Tsis Ari Avenicus.

This is the format of the debate:
Round 1: Acceptance.
Round 2: Opening arguments.
Round 3: Rebuttals.
Round 4: Concluding remarks.

I wish the best of luck to my opponent.
Plutarch

Con

Hello, My name is Plutarch and I full accept the debate with full knowledge that it is not a wining argument for me. I wish You the best of luck Sir. Let the Games begin.
Debate Round No. 1
Tadeusz

Pro

I will begin with examining the core principles of the Sith philosophy.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion, through passion I gain strength, through strength power, through power victory, through victory my chains are broken. The force shall free me"
The Sith code, as shown above, demonstrates the basic principles of the sith. Their ideas emerged after some of the members of the old Jedi order became disenchanted by the principles of the Jedi. The Jedi saw their role as being altruistic, emotionless individuals (There is no passion, there is serenity). The issues the sith felt with this relied more than anything on the ideas of lacking emotion. As we see from the movies the Jedi banned romantic attraction, which they saw as disruptive.

To illustrate why one must see that when a Jedi would be faced with a choice, to save 10 people or to save their loved one, the emotions they felt towards that person would make the choice "detrimental". The Sith rejected this. Their code, the one above, was intended not to portray things as they should be, but as they are. It was a fundamental shift in value (later absolutely distorted by sociopaths like Sidious).

The principle of the Sith was that of self improvement and competition. The idea was that the brutal reality of this competition which involved infighting at times, would overall improve improve the quality of those within their empire. The passion, they felt, was necessary for general individual improvement. And through the individual striving to better his position, he would improve the society as a whole. In other words, the sith acknowledged the reality that existed in the universe, and instead of an altruistic approach which made the Jedi "feel" good, they would teach people to rely primarily on themselves, which would do good. In contrast, the Jedi have a tendency to try to help each other from avoiding negative consequences of their actions. This teaches dependency, because individuals have no incentives to fix their mistakes. Reliance means weakness.

One of the greater strengths of the Sith philosophy is that it did not deny the natures of its followers. The principles of the Jedi, which were not to show emotion and to only think about others, a pathological altruism I would say, lead to huge internal conflicts that would damage individual Jedi and be generally disruptive. Instead, the sith embrace passion, through the dark side, accepting themselves as they are and making themselves stronger.

Now to answer the charge often levied against the sith, which is that of cruelty. Sometimes, short term suffering prevents long term suffering. It is profitable to end an incompetent ruler in a bloody civil war, if that ruler would be responsible for the death of many in the long term. The Jedi do not see this. They fail to see the importance of order. The Jedi have a tendency to acquiesce to disorder. They allow the chaos of the republic to be responsible for the misery of many. On the basis of both of these it is beneficial for the sith to take the republic in one bloody conflict, as opposed to surrendering the universe to disorder in the long term. The Sith Empires of the Old Republic, though they had their issues, were strictly disciplined and ordered. They brought order and peace to the planets they conquered. The might of the empire was without doubt. Imagine, the two situations. Either a strong, ordered empire, which allows individuals to excel, or a weak and corrupt republic. I know which I would choose.

I'd like to thank my competitor for answering the call. I wish you good luck.
Plutarch

Con

I begin by thanking you for letting participate in this debate.
Your points are all valid, however You only scratched the surface of the truth in this case.
It is true that the Jedi use no emotion and shun it as well. This however is not totally a flaw. The ability to shut down or ignore your emotions is something taught in our world today. Our world teaches to accept others despite differences. This enables a group of people to intellectual come to terms with each other rather than use you fear and hatred of people different that you to cause destruction. The ultimate goal of the Jedi philosophy is to never let relationships, or emotions get in the way of doing what is right. In the Sith philosophy it says this "Peace is a lie...", however this within itself is not true. Peace is not a lie, but merely a hopeful idea that binds people together to have courage to do what is right.The Sith teaches self improvement, well so does the Jedi. The Jedi as a whole believe that self improvement makes you more likely to be able to handle situations better due to your dedication. The Jedi's ability to give their lives to protect other people goes on just simple altruism, it shows their beliefs that lives of a group of people are more important than an individuals. If I can take a Star Trek quotation and apply it to Star Wars: "The needs of Many outweigh the needs of few.".
Debate Round No. 2
Tadeusz

Pro

I want to thank my opponent for his excellent comments. I want to address his speech point by point. Let me begin with his first point that the jedi:
"It is true that the Jedi use no emotion and shun it as well. This however is not totally a flaw. The ability to shut down or ignore your emotions is something taught in our world today. Our world teaches to accept others despite differences. This enables a group of people to intellectual come to terms with each other rather than use you fear and hatred of people different that you to cause destruction."
You may say this, yet in my opinion it is the very nature of our emotions that allows us to have a moral compass. The sith embraced the fact that what they were doing in the short term was hurtful. In the long term they knew that when they seized power this would offer order and prosperity to those who are competent. It was the jedi who sociopathically murdered the sith in a literally pointless event know as the sith holocaust (http://starwars.wikia.com...). The sith children, women and men were all murdered by the jedi. And what was this for, in the name of such a greater good? At least the sith admit that what they do is evil. What I am saying here, to make it clear, is that the jedi are hypocrites, while at least the sith do not lie to the universe and themselves. The jedi are just as bad. Emotion isn't to do with not accepting the differences of others. The jedi are very closed to any sort of disagreements. Evidence? Well they did try to assassinate the chancellor of the republic because he was a sith ACCORDING TO ONE JEDI. And even if he was a sith, did they really have the right to arrest him just for that? No. This was a coup. The jedi wanted to return to the times when they were the ones who were generals in the republic army and the chancellor was a jedi (before the Ruusan reformation) . They have always only sought power, but covered for it well.
In fact it was due to the very close mindedness of the jedi that the initial splits within the jedi order emerged. When you read about the history of the jedi you will realize that exiles from the jedi order during the first great schism, were due mostly due to the actions of the jedi council who prohibited Xendor from studying certain force sensitive traditions. Yes, indeed, the jedi prevented him from expanding the jedi knowledge and setting up his own academy. The jedi are a cult. They created the later corrupted concept of the sith! Very intellectually open, are they not?

The ultimate goal of the Jedi philosophy is to never let relationships, or emotions get in the way of doing what is right. In the Sith philosophy it says this "Peace is a lie...", however this within itself is not true. Peace is not a lie, but merely a hopeful idea that binds people together to have courage to do what is right.
-Peace is a lie was a statement by the sith. The jedi declared that one must accept oneself. The sith realized the conflict that would ever perpetuate itself in their minds. The conflict with yourself primarily. You can never be at peace with yourself if you are to be improving. In this way the sith are based broadly on the ideas of Nietzsche. You must see who you are and try to improve yourself. You cannot accept your flaws, but you must ever strive to improve them. This is a model for success in a society. This, and not the model accepted by the jedi of people forever helping each other. For the society to strive the weak must be at the bottom of it and the strong at the top, both intellectually and physically in the case of the military. We must have a process of selection. The sith realize this.
As for emotions even the sith preached that they must not let them take over (for example Malgus killing his loved one when he realized she could mean his death). But you cannot absolutely reject them. That is unhealthy. Imagine developing in something if you have no passion, no love for it? Imagine never feeling anger, sadness, or happiness. He who is without experience must be without strength. Hence why the jedi does not teach self improvement.
I have shown how the jedi is a hypocrite and how the sith ideology surpasses that of the jedi. You cannot constantly have a collectivist mentality, otherwise you forget the importance of the individual in the larger society. The truth is it is better to teach someone to fish than to give him a fish. The jedi want one the sith the other.

Thank you, I look forward to hearing your further arguments.
Plutarch

Con

Okay, I agree that emotions do play a major role on peoples morals, however maybe the Jedi reject impulsive emotions that make justice unreachable otherwise. Jedi did indeed kill Sith in cold blood, but doesn't this coincide with the Sith philosophy: Through strength I gain power, through power victory" The Sith happened to be a rival power and didn't coincide with jedi philosophy, but they did do these horrible crimes. As for the Sith not accepting their flaws, this is both true and false on certain levels, on floor one of the Department of Sith Philosophy, by improving their skill and improving shows that they accept that they have flaws,but continue to improve on them. On floor two, however yes they don't accept that their flaws affect them, cause them to do things rashly and they tend to not think on the flaws at all.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Tadeusz 5 months ago
Tadeusz
Apologies for forfeiting conclusion. I was forced to be away for a few days.
Posted by solar145254 5 months ago
solar145254
Sith are cooler straight
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