The Instigator
MolecularBird06
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
Iamaconfederate
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

The South Did Not Have The Right to Secede From the Union

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Iamaconfederate
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/17/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,029 times Debate No: 49322
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (2)

 

MolecularBird06

Pro

First Round is Acceptance, but Con please start of with your argument.

Note: This topic relates to the American Civil War
Iamaconfederate

Con

I believe that the south had and has every right to secede from ANY government, regardless of purposes, it was put up to a vote, like in Crimea, and the majority of people voted to secede, so they did. They had a right in the tenth amendment to the United States Constitution, which says that any rights not specified or reserved for the federal government are reserved for the states. Obviously, this includes secession.

I leave the floor to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 1
MolecularBird06

Pro

The Tenth Amendment states powers, not right. The interpretation is seen as that they can pass laws, but not leave. Also the South's reason for leaving was that there way of life was being threatened, that slavery was being abolished. This was not happening though, Lincoln wanted to stop the spread,but not destroy it. This destroys the South's case for secession. Also no one recognizes Crimea and the vote is illegitimate.
Iamaconfederate

Con

"Also the South's reason for leaving was that there way of life was being threatened, that slavery was being abolished."

We are not talking about reasons for secession, only if the south had a right to it. The idea of secession was not even questioned until the civil war. United States President James Buchanan believed that the south had that right. Again, the 10th amendment gives ALL rights that are not for the federal government to the states.

Russia recognizes Crimea.
Debate Round No. 2
MolecularBird06

Pro

The Supreme Court, which determines what is Constitutional and what is not stated succession is unconstitutional, therefore the South did not have the right to leave the union.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.law.cornell.edu...
Iamaconfederate

Con

Do you think Crimea has the right to secede according to Crimea? How about Scotland? Quebec? According to their central governments, they don't. But according to a lot of other countries, they do.

The Yankees didn't want them to leave, why would they? Britain, France, Germany, Brazil, and Mexico all partially recognized the confederacy.

The Supreme Court of the north will always be in favor of the north. If they had had a southern court, the south would have had the right. If it were even, it would be down to one person.
Debate Round No. 3
MolecularBird06

Pro

My opponent does not seem to understand the basic structure of the U.S government. The Southern States agreed to follow the Constitution, and that was their choice, that means that they have to listen to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court stated that they can't leave so that means they can't. The vote that session was illegal was an overwhelming majority, not a 5-4 vote. Also the Supreme Court was balanced by Northerns and Southerns.

Also the Constitution does not state a state an legally leave the Union. It states that the States may alter the Constitution if the Constitution was not working. This means that states were to attempt to alter the government, not abolish it. Also the Union is older than the states and that "the provision for a perpetual Union in the Articles of Confederation" was carried over into the Constitution by the "reminder that the preamble to the new Constitution gives us one of its purposes the formation of 'a more perfect Union'.
Iamaconfederate

Con

"My opponent does not seem to understand the basic structure of the U.S government." Clearly you have no understanding of history. The ONLY southern states that agreed to be in a voluntary union were Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. The rest were illegally annexed, such as West Florida, or conquered through war.
"The Supreme Court stated that they can't leave so that means they can't." The Supreme Court stated that in 1869, 4 years after the war was over. They could/should have stated that during or directly after the revolution.
Also the Constitution does not state a state an legally leave the Union. It states that the States may alter the Constitution if the Constitution was not working. This means that states were to attempt to alter the government, not abolish it."
References to the right to abolish destructive government and institute a new government upon whatever principles they so choose can be found in:
  1. Declaration of Independence “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness
  2. Virginia Declaration of rights, Section III “whenever any government shall be found inadequate or contrary to these purposes, a majority of the community hath an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform, alter or abolish it
  3. Pennsylvania Declaration of Rights and Constitution Section V, “And that the community hath an indubitable, unalienable and indefeasible right to reform, alter, or abolish government."

Clearly the states believed that they had the right to abolish the United States.

. "Also the Supreme Court was balanced by Northerners and Southerners."

They would not have voted against secession if they were true Southerners, not someone like Marco Rubio or Lindsey Graham.

I would like to thank my opponent for this debate.

I ask the audience to not be biased. Vote Confederate!

Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by MolecularBird06 3 years ago
MolecularBird06
Russia recognizes it because they benefit from it.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Actionsspeak 3 years ago
Actionsspeak
MolecularBird06IamaconfederateTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's arguments were unrefuted.
Vote Placed by Relativist 3 years ago
Relativist
MolecularBird06IamaconfederateTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: This topic is about the american civil war, the argument on crimea was irrelevant. However, Con did make a comparison, so that counts as a supplementary in terms of seccession rights. The main arguments for both revolves around the constitution, as to what it legislates. Pro laid his case for the supreme court as well as the tenth ammendment(though this issue was out of topic as Con pointed out that the resolution was not about reasons why, but whether the south have that right). The issue of supreme court continues on as Pro made his case that seccession was outlawed only to be rebut by Con by saying that the supreme court established the rule 4 years after the civil war. The resolution is concerned with what is currently happening at that time, whether the south have that right, not 4 years after. As such Pro's case was successfully beaten by Con. The declaration of independance was supplementary towards his case, as BOP was on Pro. Pro was the only one with source, so sources to him