The Instigator
ho11yw00d
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
birdlandmemories
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The St. Louis Cardinals made a huge mistake in not signing a free agent hitter.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/29/2016 Category: Sports
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 465 times Debate No: 85761
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

ho11yw00d

Pro

In 2015, the Cardinals won 100 games mainly due to outstanding pitching. The club was slowed near the end of the season and nearly removed from first place by both Pittsburgh and Chicago. The hitting, which was below average all season, got worse and the pitching deteriorated. This culminated in the playoffs when the Cubs won the series 3 games to 1. In the off season, Lance Lynn got a season ending injury, Heyward signed with the Cubs, Lackey signed with the Cubs and Jay was traded to San Diego. In return, the Cardinals got Gyrko from SD, signed Mike Leake and signed a Korean reliever. Lynn and Leake actually have very similar #s, so that is a wash. Lackey is superior to Oh in every way. Jay has injuries, but when healthy can bat .300 for a year. Gyrko can't even hit .300 in one game. So that leaves Heyward. No replacement.

If you account for WAR, we lost 6 games this year because of Heyward alone. These games are now added to Chicago. Therefore, they should win 103 games compared to 94 for STL in 2016.

We needed a prize free agent bat, or two, to recouperate those wins. Davis signed with Baltimore, Cespedes with NY and Upton with Detroit. The opportunity was missed and now the team will be lucky to make a wild card spot.
birdlandmemories

Con

I accept this debate. I will argue that the Cardinals did not need to sign a free agent hitter.

The Cardinals are in good hand already, they have a good young nucleus of hitters that includes Randal Grichuk, Steven Piscotty, and Tommy Pham. Each of these players are expected to have much improved production in 2016 compared to 2015.

The Cardinals also retain Matt Carpenter who is coming off of a career high 28 home runs and 84 rbis. [1] They have all star catcher Yadier Molina behind the plate as well. Kolten Wong is also a player who has a career high in batting average and in home runs as well. [2].

Also the free agent hitters market was very overpriced. Chris Davis signed for 7 years and 161 million, Cespedes signed for 3 years and 75 million, Heyward signed for 8 years and 184 million. When signing players to large contracts like that, the risk is ginormous. There's always the possibility of injuries and the possibility players don't live up to large contracts like those.

Heyward is also only a career .268 hitter and doesn't even average 68 rbis in his career, and the last 3 years has only averaged a grand total of 58.6 rbis per year. That doesn't sound like a player who is worth 23 million per year.

Chris Davis is also earning 23 million over the next 7 years, but again he comes with major risks. He is only a career .255 hitter and while he can possibly get over 100 rbis in a season, he also lead the league in strikeouts last year. He's a feast or famine hitter, and the possibility he doesn't live up to his contract is very large.

And finally, there is Yoenis Cespedes. He signed a 3 year 75 million dollar deal with the Mets. While he is certainly a talented player there are also serious risks. First, while Cespedes had career highs in home runs and rbis last season, Baseball Reference does not project the same for 2016. Cespedes is only expected to be a .265 hitter and experience solid drops in home runs and rbis from last season (26 home runs and 88 rbis) [3]. Those do not sound like the numbers a hitter worth 25 million would put up.

Thank you.

Sources:

1: http://www.baseball-reference.com...
2. http://www.baseball-reference.com...
3. http://www.baseball-reference.com...
Debate Round No. 1
ho11yw00d

Pro

Molina is 33. (1) Holiday is 36. (2) The pitching was good last year, but performed way above what they should have. The hitting was atrocious. Relying on young, untested hitters to carry the club is a recipe for disaster. (3) Carpenter should have tried to get singles and doubles more instead of trying to hit a solo home run every at bat, runners on base lead to multiple run innings. A solo home run is not a rally. That's why we had so many 1 runs innings last year (4).

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birdlandmemories

Con

While Molina is indeed 33, his statitics actually improved from 2014. He was healthier, and was still and all star and gold glove catcher. The same can be applied to Matt Holiday. He only played 73 games last year, but he still made his 1st all star game since 2012, and improved his batting average and rbis per game totals from 2014. Also, Grichuk and Piscotty will make up for whatever decline in numbers those 2 might have, since both are expected to have major increases in their stats.


My opponent also states that Matt Carpenter should stop trying to get home runs every at bat, but in fact he got more doubles than home runs. Home runs account for 18% of his hits; comepare that to a power hitter like Chris Davis whos home runs (47/150) account for 31% of hits. Baseball Reference projects that Carpenter's batting average will incrase from .272 to .279. [5] This refutes my opponent's argument that Carpenter needs to focus on getting more singles and doubles. He already gets more of each than home runs.

Jhonny Peralta also experienced an increase in offensive production. His batting average incrased from .263 to .275. He also got more hits and made the 2015 All Star game. Baseball Reference projects more of the same in 2016 [6].

Brandon Moss also is projected to have an incrased roll with the Cardinals next year. He is expected to incrase his rbi total from 58 to 68, and his home runs from 19 to 22. His batting average and doubles are also projected to increase, while his strikeouts are projected to decrease [7].

Sources:

5. http://www.baseball-reference.com...;
6. http://www.baseball-reference.com...;
7. http://www.baseball-reference.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
ho11yw00d

Pro

To rely on Molina, Holliday, Grichuk, Moss and Piscotty to all improve over last year, is a very tall order. This is also assuming that everyone else on the team has no decline at all. I have been a Cards fan since '85. Although I live in California, I go to at least 2-3 games at Busch every year. It really pains me to see that for the last 4 years, we had a good enough team to get to the playoffs, but fall short when there.
Having an experienced power bat in the middle of the lineup makes a large difference. Pitchers have a natural tendency to pitch around power hitters in fear of giving up a HR. They will generally throw more strikes to the hitter immediately before the power guy in hopes to get him out and not put him on base. A power hitter changes the complexion of the lineup for the better.
With the decline in HRs, the Cards offense has gone with it over the last couple years. It begins to make sense when you look at the players who have left: 2011 - Pujols 40 Hr/avg., 2012-13 - Beltran 25 Hr/avg., 2015 - Heyward 18 Hr/avg. This year, we have no one to replace Heyward. Basically, the 45 Hr/year average that Pujols put up is now gone.

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birdlandmemories

Con

Grichuk, Moss, and Piscotty are all expected to have considerable rises in production. The analytics say so. Also, the fact that those players are expected to have increased production will help balance out any drop in production someone in the lineup has. Plus, watching those players develop is cheaper and more cost effective than making a risky signing of a power hitter for 25 million a year. Also, Busch Stadium is a pitchers park, and that hinders some of the offensive production [8].

The decline in offensive production isn't just evident with the Cardinals, it's happening all across Major League Baseball. Pitchers have improved each year, and especially in a league such as the NL where guys like Clayton Kershaw, Zack Greinke, and Jake Arrieta reside, offense is tough to produce.

Also, Brandon Moss fits the description of a power guy completely. He's a feast or famine hitter who can produce solid year round stats. Also, he comes at a much cheaper price than Chris Davis or Pedro Alvarez.

Also, if the Cardinals have relied on pitching to make the playoffs, why should they change their philosophy? It's worked for the past 5 year, getting them to the World Series twice and winning it all in 2011. With a solid pitching staff and a lights out bullpen, their pitching should remain top notch.

Sources:
8. http://www.vivaelbirdos.com...
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Reformist 1 year ago
Reformist
No you didnt

You didnt do anything to him
Posted by ho11yw00d 1 year ago
ho11yw00d
OH NO!!! What am I going to do? Whiteflame is coming after me.

I schooled that clown and put him in his place.

Again, it is my OPINION who deserved points. You going from being ignorant to just being straight up stupid.
Posted by Reformist 1 year ago
Reformist
Dude you cant give points to someone when they didnt earn them

You gave him conduct and spelling points even though he forfeited the debate and had more spelling errors

If you continue with this whiteflame will remove your voting priveleges
Posted by ho11yw00d 1 year ago
ho11yw00d
I saw a debate, I voted on it. Don't be so full of yourself. I couldn't care less what debates you're in.

Also, you have no right to tell people how to vote. The whole reason behind voting is to express an opinion. You really have a hard time understanding that. If I say that cheetahs are better than leopards, someone can say the opposite. It's called an opinion or a vote.

Read a good book once in a while, not that "god doesn't exist crap" you like to read. Try Mark Levin or Michelle Malkin just once. I guarantee you will be a better person.
Posted by Reformist 1 year ago
Reformist
You gave him conudct

But he forfeited

Not only that but I checked and I had no spelling errors while had more than 1

If you want me to stop "stalking" you then stop going through my profile and voting on old debates
Posted by ho11yw00d 1 year ago
ho11yw00d
First off, stop stalking me. Second off, don't tell me how I should vote. Third, my vote was legit, if I was unfair, I would have given all of the points to him. I gave you 2 points for your copy/paste sources. Now go away!!
Posted by Reformist 1 year ago
Reformist
Hollywood

Remove your vote on my stateless society debate

You gave spelling conduct and a rguements to pro even though he ff the debate

Your voting privileges will get removed if you keep putting out bad votes
Posted by birdlandmemories 1 year ago
birdlandmemories
That's interesting. Just last night they were working perfectly fine. I wonder if they're doing site maintenance or something.
Posted by ho11yw00d 1 year ago
ho11yw00d
Your sources do not work. 404 message pops up.

FYI
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