The Instigator
theta_pinch
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The Contender
YellowPandaBear
Con (against)
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The Star Trek mirror universe federation is at least as bad as Star Wars' Empire

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2014 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 893 times Debate No: 43232
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
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theta_pinch

Pro

The Star Trek mirror universe federation is at least as bad/cruel/evil as Star Wars' Empire.
YellowPandaBear

Con

My basic argument for this debate will be based upon the compared threat levels of the two empires. In other words, the threat that each empire would pose to a certain hypothetical world or space-faring nation. Also, I shall assume that the mirror universe empire we are debating is the Terran Empire and not the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance.

There are a few reasons that Palpatine's empire is more threatening and thus "more bad" than the Terran Empire.

    1. Palpatine has the ability to produce millions upon millions of clones and vessels with which to fight his enemies meaning he has almost inexhaustible resources with which to lay siege to another world. The Terran Empire on the other hand has a limited number of soldiers with which to fight and man ships meaning that they pose less of a threat.

    1. Another reason that the Terran Empire is less of a threat is the command structure. The Terran Empire has a very weak and volatile command structure that permeates every corner of its civilization even up to the highest level of government. Productivity, technological advancement, and military conquest are repeatedly impeded by treacherous backstabbing and short sighted attempts to satisfy personal ambition and acquire power. Emperor Palpatine on the other hand has armies of virtually equal and entirely obedient clones at his disposal and a very rigid command structure that is very difficult to compromise. Even if Palpatine's command structure isn't completely solid, it is certainly more stable than that of the Terran Empire's. This is evidenced by the fact that during Star Wars episodes 4-6 only one assassination of an imperial official by another took place and that was when Vader killed Palpatine. Arguably this wasn't even an assassination as it was not planned and appeared to be more like a fit of rage whereas in the Terran Empire episodes from Star Trek there was some form of coup whether it failed or succeeded at least every ten minutes if not more frequently.

    1. Weapons are also key here. Palpatine has the Death Star which not only can kill billions of a planet's inhabitants but also strike fear into his enemies. The Terran Empire has phasers, photons, the booth, and agonizers.


Overall, it can be seen that while the two empires are morally comparable, it would be far preferable to be attacked by the Terran Empire as they are less dangerous than Palpatine's empire making it the better of the two empires.

I await your answers and am looking forward to an entertaining debate.
Debate Round No. 1
theta_pinch

Pro

You have misinterpreted the resolution. It wasn't talking about the threat they represent to other worlds; bad meant moral evils within the empires not the amount of destruction they can cause.

Here are the reasons why the Terran Empire is at least as bad as the Empire.

1. Officers move up in rank by KILLING their superiors.
2. For a minor offense the offender is given an incredibly painful shock from an agonizer.
3. For a more serious offense they are set in the agony booth; way worse than anything the Empire has. Here is a technical description of it from memory alpha: The agony booth was capable of stimulating the pain center of virtually any humanoid, a synaptic scan calibrating it for each species. To overcome the limitation of more traditional forms of punishment, in which the nervous system becomes overwhelmed, resulting in the brain becoming desensitized to the pain, the booth's sensors continually shifted the stimulation from one nerve cluster to another, keeping the subject in a constant state of agony.

For these reasons; the Terran Empire is at least as bad as the Empire if not worse.

YellowPandaBear

Con

It is true that the Terran Empire treats its subjects poorly and is based on a culture of fear and treachery which is morally reprehensible. However, the ability to destroy should also be taken into account as we are to assume that given the chance, each power would do whatever possible to destroy and enslave what is unlike them. The empire that is most able to behave in this way should therefore behave in this way more frequently thereby causing more destruction and enslaving more people. This means that the empire that does this most behaves the least morally of the two as morality pertains not only to a way of thought but also to a way of acting. Therefore, because Palpatine's empire will cause more destruction and slavery than the unstable and ill equipped Terran Empire ever will, Palpatine's empire is the least moral of the two.

Also, the resolution provided several options for comparison these being bad, cruel, or evil.

My arguments from round one fit well enough under the "bad" comparison option as it would be worse to be attacked by Palpatine's empire than by the Terran Empire, thus my arguments from round one still stand as they are still resolutional and no other arguments have been brought against them.
Debate Round No. 2
theta_pinch

Pro

Con wants to take into account the destructive capabilities of the two empires; so here is what the terran empire can do.

The Terran Empire's main ship for enslaving and destroying civilizations is the constitution class. This is the section from memory alpha describing the constitution class' weapon capabilities: "during the early 2250s, Constitution-class heavy cruisers were armed with a complement of directed energy weapons, that possessed enough power to destroy half a continent in a concentrated bombardment. In addition, these vessels carried on board laser cannons, capable of operating on energy fed remotely from the ship."

"By 2266, phaser banks were standard complement aboard this class of ship. A bank actually consisted of a single emitter and its power supply, though it was common practice to fire two banks at a time and refer to it as a single firing."


"Ship-mounted phaser banks had a range of approximately 90,000 kilometers, and like hand phasers, were capable of being adjusted to stun, heat, or disintegrate targets, including objects or beings in space or on a planets surface at a focus ranging from narrow to wide beam. When only motion sensor readings are available, the ships phasers could be set for proximity blast and bracket the approximate coordinates of the target."

"The Constitution-class originally mounted six forward torpedo tubes and an aft tube for launching photon torpedoes. The forward tubes were located in the same area as the forward phaser banks. The tube covering the aft firing arc launched torpedoes from the end of the secondary hull. This combined arsenal was powerful enough to destroy the entire surface of a planet."

So the Terran Empires planet war ship has a firing range of 90,000 kilometers; much greater than the star destroyers or the death star in star wars; giving it additional safety when dominating a planet. Then they also have the ability to destroy the ENTIRE SURFACE of a planet; the same destructive capability of a star destroyer but on 1/66 the size. That smaller size makes it much harder to hit because of a smaller cross-sectional area and makes it more maneuverable than star destroyers.

Another factor to take into consideration when determining the threat to a world is shields. That's because you can have the most powerful ship in the galaxy but if you have no shields it can be attacked and destroyed quite easily reducing the risk. This is the strength of the constitution class' shields according to memory alpha: "A Constitution-class star ship's shields could take the equivalent of ninety photon torpedoes at once."
A photon torpedo has a warhead made of 1.5 kilograms of matter and 1.5 kilograms of antimatter. When it i detonated that creates an explosion of 64 megatons. The shields can take 90 at once so that gives a total strength of 5.76 GIGATONS. From that the shield strength can be rated at: 24099.84 petajoules. To put that into perspective; largest bomb ever detonated; the tsar bomb; had a yield of 50 megatons. So we could say that the shields can take the equivalent of 114.76 tsar bombs. For reference of how much destruction 1 tsar bomb can cause here's a picture from wikipedia:


File:Tsar Bomba Paris.png
This picture shows the size of the total destruction zone transposed on a map of Paris.
Now imagine this times 114; then you get an idea of how much energy the shields can handle.

CONCLUSION
With the Terran empire being able to destroy the entire surface of a planet, they are a grave threat. At least as grave as the Empire since it is more maneuverable, harder to hit, and incredibly difficult to destroy. Unlike the Empire's ultimate weapon; the death star which has a flaw so terrible that a fighter craft can get through the shields and destroy it; the Terran Empire's main ships are shielded and constructed in such a way that fighter craft can't get in close to destroy it and it doesn't have an exhaust port that leads directly to the power core. The Terran empires ships shields unlike star destroyers cannot be taken out by kamikaze attacks. Since it has less weaknesses, a lot of power, and maneuverability than Star Wars ships it presents a threat to worlds as great or possibly greater than the Empire.
YellowPandaBear

Con

While the Terran Empire has the better defended ships and armaments which can destroy the surface of a planet. In order to destroy the surface, the Constitution vessels have to fire multiple times under sustained bombardment which makes them vulnerable whereas the Death Star is a one shot one kill. Also, the Death Star not simply irradiates and obliterates the surface of planets but completely pulverizes the entire planet. This introduces the effect of fear that the Constitution phasers and photons simply cannot match and fear is a very powerful weapon. As to the Death Star's firing range it is indeed over two times greater than that of a Constitution vessel at 2 million km http://starwars.wikia.com.... Further, the Death Star also had the ability to rapidly destroy several ships with its super laser as was seen in the Return of the Jedi. Also, the Death Star is the size of a small moon and would thus require countless blasts to its external shell completely pulverise it and render it useless. Also, one should not forget the fact that the empire has the capacity to build far more ships and man them quickly than the Terran Empire does due to Palpatine's access to an entire galaxy of resources and a steady flow of clone soldiers neither of which the Terran Empire has. This means that the Death Star could be protected by hundreds of star destroyers and thousands of TIE fighters at a time and do considerable damage before any vessels got close enough to launch a torpedo down the exhaust port. Really the only reason that the first Death Star was blown up is that Tarkin failed to think of blowing up the gas giant first and then the rebel base.
The Empire is further boosted over the Terran Empire when the stability of its command structure and culture as compared with the instability of the Terran Empire is taken into account.
Also, the resources of the Empire make the occupation of other worlds a cinch whereas the Terran Empire has a limited supply of soldiers and can become thinly spread very easily. This was seen in the Star Trek: Enterprise season four two parter "In a Mirror Darkly," where the Terran Empire had to resort to having aliens of multiple oppressed worlds in order to man their vessels, aliens whose species were also fighting in the rebellion. Indeed these episodes bring another issue with the Terran Empire to light, their inability to innovate technologically. Here it was shown that the Constitution class of the Terran Empire was not of their making but was instead stolen from Tholians who had stolen it from the original Star Trek universe. Then, nearly a century later, they are using the same class of vessel for their flagship the ISS Enterprise as was shown in the TOS episode "Mirror Mirror." The Empire meanwhile utilizes its vast galactic diversity to its advantage in producing its weapons. The Death Star, for example, was of Geonosian design while the clones come from Camino with armor that was initially partially based on that of the Mandalorians while the weapons of the clone army and the star destroyers were original Republic designs that advanced as the Republic faded into the Empire. In fact, the clone weapons also advanced over this time and even during the Clone Wars while the Death Star I was seen to have a slow firing sequence and the Death Star II, just a few years later had greatly improved the rapidity of its firing.
CONCLUSION
The firepower of the Empire is comparable if not greater than that of the Terran Empire and its vast resources coupled with its inherent stability and ability to rapidly advance its military technology from a wide variety of alien cultures both willing and reluctant make it a far greater threat than the resource starved, meta-stable, and technologically slow Terran Empire. Finally, we must not forget the fear factor that the rapid destruction of an entire planet has as compared with the slow battering of its surface. Indeed the Death Star is analogous to atom bombing Hiroshima while a barrage of phasers and photons is analogous with firebombing Tokyo.
Debate Round No. 3
theta_pinch

Pro

"In order to destroy the surface, the Constitution vessels have to fire multiple times under sustained bombardment which makes them vulnerable whereas the Death Star is a one shot one kill. Also, the Death Star not simply irradiates and obliterates the surface of planets but completely pulverizes the entire planet. This introduces the effect of fear that the Constitution phasers and photons simply cannot match and fear is a very powerful weapon."

However the constitution class's shields are more than enough for what most planets can fire at them; so it is not quite as vulnerable as you make it out to be. True; the death star is a one shot kill; but it also takes way more resources and power to use. In other words there is a limited number that can be constructed even with a galaxy of resources. Then there is also the fact that it is overkill. Sure they can destroy a planet; but destroying the surface of a planet is just as effective. Either way the civilization living there will never be able to return so the constitution class could be said to inspire a fairly equal fear level. Also the death star is much easier to destroy; you simply have to launch a torpedo down it's exhaust port. The constitution class has no flaws such that being able to get past the shields would allow it to be destroyed with one hit from a torpedo.

"Further, the Death Star also had the ability to rapidly destroy several ships with its super laser as was seen in the Return of the Jedi. Also, the Death Star is the size of a small moon and would thus require countless blasts to its external shell completely pulverise it and render it useless."


However those ships have to be within a relatively narrow beam width; an area that shouldn't be to difficult to avoid. Also it takes one torpedo down the exhaust port to destroy the death star, so you don't really have to get through the surface to render it useless. That exhaust port actually makes it much more vulnerable than the constitution class.

"Also, one should not forget the fact that the empire has the capacity to build far more ships and man them quickly than the Terran Empire does due to Palpatine's access to an entire galaxy of resources and a steady flow of clone soldiers neither of which the Terran Empire has. This means that the Death Star could be protected by hundreds of star destroyers and thousands of TIE fighters at a time and do considerable damage before any vessels got close enough to launch a torpedo down the exhaust port."

One should also remember that Empire ships are much easier to destroy; star destroyer shield domes are vulnerable and the death star has that exhaust port. True the death star could do considerable damage before it is destroyed but it's likely the first planet it comes to could destroy it; albeit after the planet is destroyed. However in the case it gets destroyed by fighters from the first planet it comes too, it would be more of a one time weapon.

"Really the only reason that the first Death Star was blown up is that Tarkin failed to think of blowing up the gas giant first and then the rebel base."

Actually it was destroyed because of a design flaw exploited by the Rebellion.

"The Empire is further boosted over the Terran Empire when the stability of its command structure and culture as compared with the instability of the Terran Empire is taken into account."

While it is true that the Empire has a more stable command structure, the Terran Empire has still been shown to be quite successful in enslaving worlds as evidenced by their history.

"Also, the resources of the Empire make the occupation of other worlds a cinch whereas the Terran Empire has a limited supply of soldiers and can become thinly spread very easily. This was seen in the Star Trek: Enterprise season four two parter "In a Mirror Darkly," where the Terran Empire had to resort to having aliens of multiple oppressed worlds in order to man their vessels, aliens whose species were also fighting in the rebellion."

Since we are talking about the 23rd century Terran Empire, the composition of the crews in the 22nd century is irrelevant. In the Original Series episode Mirror, Mirror; it is actually shown that the crews of ships seem to have voluntarily chosen to become crew members to support the Terran Empire.

"Indeed these episodes bring another issue with the Terran Empire to light, their inability to innovate technologically. Here it was shown that the Constitution class of the Terran Empire was not of their making but was instead stolen from Tholians who had stolen it from the original Star Trek universe. Then, nearly a century later, they are using the same class of vessel for their flagship the ISS Enterprise as was shown in the TOS episode "Mirror Mirror."

While it is true that they seem to have an inability to innovate they also try to steal any technology more advanced then their own. With their shields and formidable firepower they should be quite successful in many circumstances at stealing ships and technology, and integrating it into their fleet making them still quite formidable. If they don't have the technology they need, they'd just find someone elswe with that technology and steal it.


CONCLUSION
For my conclusion I will rate the Terran Empire and the Galactic Empire on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the best in fear, cruelty, destructiveness, and threat level.

FEAR FACTOR

GALACTIC EMPIRE: The galactic empire has the ability to annihilate both planets and civilizations; for these reasons the Galactic Empire gets a 9.

TERRAN EMPIRE: The Terran Empire has the ability to annihilate the surface of a planet making it uninhabitable and therefore has the ability to destroy entire civilizations; for these reasons the Terran Empire gets an 8.

CRUELTY AND AMORALITY

GALACTIC EMPIRE: The galactic Empire treats soldiers as expendable pawns, and destroys anyone or anything against them; for these reasons the galactic empire get a 7.

TERRAN EMPIRE: Officers in the Terran Empire rise in rank by killing superiors, for a minor offense they are subjected to a about 20 seconds of incredible pain and for larger offenses they are set in an agony booth which tortures them for extended periods of time; finally they enslave races and if they are opposed; destroy them. For these reasons the Terran Empire gets a 10.

DESTRUCTIVENESS

GALACTIC EMPIRE: The Galactic Empire has the ability to melt the surface of a planet or destroy a planet, but are incapable of destroying anything larger. For this reason the Galactic Empire gets a 9.

TERRAN EMPIRE: The Terran Empire has the ability to COMPLETELY destroy the surface of a planet. For this reason the Terran Empire gets an 8

THREAT LEVEL

GALACTIC EMPIRE: The Galactic Empire has star destroyers as their main weapons. Star destroyers can be destroyed very easily by crashing into the shield domes and are therefore quite vulnerable for a ship its size. The Empires ultimate weapon the Death Star is capable of destroying planets yet has a design flaw that allows a one man ship to destroy the moon sized weapon and is therefore somewhat vulnerable. The Empire also has small tie fighters capable of destroying small x-wing sized ships. For these reason the Galactic empire gets an 8.

TERRAN EMPIRE: The Terran Empire has small ships that can COMPLETELY destroy the surface of a planet. Those ships by virtue of their small size and incredibly strong shields are very difficult to destroy and are therefore not very vulnerable. Whenever the Terran Empire comes across technology greater than their own, they will do almost anything to steal it and are normally quite successful. Although they have an unstable command structure because of the way officers gain rank; they are very successful in enslaving and destroying entire races due to their loyalty towards the Empire. For these reasons the Terran Empire get an 8.

OVERALL RATING (out of 40)

GALACTIC EMPIRE: 33
TERRAN EMPIRE: 34

The rating says it all; the Terran Empire is at least as bad/evil/cruel as the Galactic Empire.



YellowPandaBear

Con

"True; the death star is a one shot kill; but it also takes way more resources and power to use. In other words there is a limited number that can be constructed even with a galaxy of resources. Then there is also the fact that it is overkill. Sure they can destroy a planet; but destroying the surface of a planet is just as effective. Either way the civilization living there will never be able to return so the constitution class could be said to inspire a fairly equal fear level."

Even though it takes more resources for the Death Star to be constructed and used, the fact remains that Palpatine has far more resources. Furthermore, the number of Constitution ships are also limited by the number of raw materials and even more limited by the number of people it has to man them. Palpatine has countless soldiers to man his many ships and his Death Star all of which are easily replaceable and completely obedient. The Constitution ships will also fail to produce the same fear level that the Death Star can because, as I said at the end of the previous round, the Death Star is akin to the atom bomb while a bombardment from Constitution vessels, which also have to get closer to their target to hit it, is similar to the slow firebombing of Japan in WWII. We firebombed countless Japanese cities and they didn't surrender, we used just two atom bombs and they acquiesced to US military dominance. As to the exhaust port, yes it's a vulnerability, assuming you have time to reach it before your planet/moon is destroyed and the entire imperial fleet takes off for the next planet.

"However those ships have to be within a relatively narrow beam width; an area that shouldn't be to difficult to avoid."

Even if it is narrow, the fact that every vessel that was targeted in "Return of the Jedi" was hit and destroyed means that avoiding the beam is not as easy as one may guess. Also, the beam itself is relatively wide with the tributary beams being from 25 m to .5km in diameter (http://www.st-v-sw.net...).

"One should also remember that Empire ships are much easier to destroy;"

While star destroyers may be easier to destroy, they do have numbers on their side and this is the empire's advantage. Ants for example are extremely easy to kill by the hundreds each day, but their numbers not only ensure their survival but that they thrive. There comes a point when quantity outweighs the shortcomings of vulnerability.

"Actually it was destroyed because of a design flaw exploited by the Rebellion."

Perhaps that was the apparent reason, however, if Tarkin had destroyed the gas giant first, he would have had more time to destroy the rebel base and move the fleet off before the Rebellion had a chance to exploit that exhaust port.

"While it is true that the Empire has a more stable command structure, the Terran Empire has still been shown to be quite successful in enslaving worlds as evidenced by their history."

Quite effective, but not as effective as the Empire.

"Since we are talking about the 23rd century Terran Empire, the composition of the crews in the 22nd century is irrelevant. In the Original Series episode Mirror, Mirror; it is actually shown that the crews of ships seem to have voluntarily chosen to become crew members to support the Terran Empire."

The fact still remains that should the Terran Empire enter into a single protracted conflict, as they had in "In a Mirror Darkly," or even a series of small ones, they would be stretched extremely thinly and would be less able to hold power within their own borders, let alone those they are conflicting with, than the Empire would with its galaxy of resources and virtually infinite number of soldiers.

"While it is true that they seem to have an inability to innovate they also try to steal any technology more advanced then their own. With their shields and formidable firepower they should be quite successful in many circumstances at stealing ships and technology, and integrating it into their fleet making them still quite formidable. If they don't have the technology they need, they'd just find someone elswe with that technology and steal it."

If the Terran Empire was that successful at stealing and integrating technology into their military, then they still should have advanced beyond the Constitution ships in the century they had to conquer countless species with their unprecedented new advantage, yet, they failed to even conquer the Klingons and Cardassians of the time. Also, the reason the Constitution ship was so easy to integrate was because it was of human design and likely more intuitive than something that would have been designed by the Andorians or Orions for example.

CONCLUSION
I shall also use my opponent's rating system as a final focus for this debate.

I agree with my opponent's fear and cruelty ratings.

DESTRUCTIVENESS

Galactic Empire: The Empire has the ability to destroy entire planets, moons, and ships in seconds as well as send in tens of millions of completely obedient and easily replaceable clones to not only kill but also occupy and the Empire has the same capacity to destroy only the surface of a planet as the Terran Empire does due to the sheer size of its military while its vast fleet of TIE fighters prove to be useful in space combat both due to numbers and maneuverability. This gives the Empire a 10.

Terran Empire: The Terran Empire has the ability to destroy the surface of a planet and has well shielded vessels that are, due to inertia, less maneuverable than TIE fighters but more maneuverable than star destroyers making them less vulnerable to attack. However these vessels are less numerous due to the resource limitations of the Terran Empire which only occupies a portion of the Alpha Quadrant and their inability to clone their soldiers. The Terran Empire gets 8.

THREAT LEVEL

Galactic Empire: The Empire has a vast military that can easily and rapidly be grown or replaced. It also has an extremely stable command structure making it a very efficient conqueror. It also has the ability to rapidly advance its technology giving it the technological edge. The Empire gets 9.

Terran Empire: The Terran Empire has a limited military that can be easily strained by prolonged conflict or multiple small conflicts. Its unstable command structure and culture make it less able to conquer and oppress civilizations. The Terran Empire also lacks the ability to rapidly advance its technology reducing its technological edge as compared with other civilizations. The Terran Empire gets 7.

GALACTIC EMPIRE:35
TERRAN EMPIRE: 33

I thank my opponent for initiating this most entertaining debate.

Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
Brought order the the galaxy. Lowered unemployment (somewhat wastefully at times, such as setting up moister farms in deserts). Ended the reign of an incestuous breeding cult (noted victims include the Skywalker twins). Tirelessly defended the galaxy from the evil separatists (also known as "rebels").
Posted by theta_pinch 3 years ago
theta_pinch
What good has the empire done?
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
The Empire does a lot of good... Heck I can see a strong argument for the normal federation being at least as bad as the Empire (not that it would be likely to win, merely it could be an interesting case).
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