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radz
Pro (for)
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The Contender
higgs
Con (against)
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The TRINITY is Biblical

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/26/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 444 times Debate No: 37030
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
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radz

Pro

The Trinity is Biblical:

Matthew 28:19 ( NIV) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

* name ( Greek: onoma), - denotes name; authority.

The Name

In Hebrew Religion, the Name of the Judaic deity is "YHWH". This is the personal name of the God of Israel. It is the so called "tetragrammaton" ( The four letters). In English, it's translated literally as either Yahweh or as Jehovah but it's commonly translated as "the LORD" as a surrogate to the literal due to the utter honor given to the sacred Name.This divine name was made known by God himself and his name reveals his nature as eternal ( Exodus 3:14).

In the LXX, the Name is " Kurios" and "ho theos". The same in the New Testament.
Paul believes that Jesus has the same traits of Yahweh:

YAHWEH

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal;and there is none that can deliver out of my hand."Deuteronomy 32:39

"Also henceforth I am he;there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?" Isaiah 43:13

JESUS

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30


The Father and the Son

In [the] beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God.Itwas with God in the beginning.All things came into existence through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into existence that has come into existence. John 1:1-3

The Word is an "it" even though he is a real subsistence i.e. a Person. It's because he is "God" as to his substance i.e. nature [the Greek "theos" lacks the definite article and the context highly implies its qualitativeness]and God in Judeo-Christianity is neither male or female,that is, he's without sex but a spirit ( John 4:24).

No one has seen God at any time;the only-offsrping, God as to his substance, who isin the bosom of the Father, this( the Father) he ( the only-offspring who is God in nature)did show( reveal, exegete). John 1:18

The Word in John 1:1 has the 'glory of being the only-offspring from the Father' in John 1:14 and is said to be 'the only-offpsring who is God as to his nature' in John 1:18 and finally, the 'only-offspring , a Son' in John 3:16,18;1 John 4:9.

Hence, identifying the Word as the Son per se of the Father.This fact in context shows that the title "Word" ( Greek: Logos) of the Son is referring to his role in the economic Trinity( i.e the relationship of the Trinity to creation).The Greek word "Logos" denotes " message, reason, word" and therefore, when applied to the Son, it means he's the communication of the Father to the world. He is the one who shows, explains and reveals the Father to creation.


The Word is not equal to God in authority and role but he is equal to God in all traits.trait denotes an attribute; quality;characteristicand all the traitsthat God has is collectively called nature.

The Word was God ( Greek: theos een ho logos): The subject is the noun phrase "the Word" . The verb "was" ( Greek: een) denotes " continuous existence in the past" because grammatically it's inindicative imperfect active form of the verb "eimi".This verb is in contrast with the Word's becoming flesh in v. 14 where the verb "egeneto" was used. This explicitly shows that the Word's continuous preexistence and his becoming flesh at a specific point of time.The Greek word "theos" is in the predicative nominative case. In Greek grammar, this denotes three things but only one of them is the correct one meant by John. So let's scrutinize:

(1)Definite ( God)It can't be definite because the Word was with God

(2)Indefinite( a god)It can't be indefinite because through the Word everything came into existence ex nihilo.

(3)Qualitative ( God in nature, God as adj.)This is the only one that fits both the immediate context and greater context. The Word has the nature of the God he's with.

The Word is not equal to God in authority and role because he is the Son. Authority denotes the right to use innate ability, the permission to act and role denotes a particular position and function.As a Son, it is proper and natural to be under his Father's paternal authority and paternal role.

It was through the Word that God created all things. The Word and the Son is the same Wisdom and Power of God. The Word, the only-offspring who is deity in nature, was given and sent by the Father at the right time to the world. The Word assumed the nature of a human slave.He's the Servant of the Father, the Apostle, High Priest and Mediator, and moreover, the Messiah and Savior.

The Father and the Son are equal in all things except in person and personal property.Person denotes a rational,intellectual, and distinct individual having emotion and volition.The Father and the Son are not equal in person.They are not the same person but rather, they are two persons.Personal property means something that a person owns intrinsically. The first Person of the Trinity's personal property is his Fatherhood to his Son and the personal property of the Second Person is his Sonship to the Father.

The Holy Spirit

The Divinity of the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is consubstantial with the Father and the Son because he equally shares in the one name of them which is YHWH per Matthew 28:19. God"s name expresses his nature per Exodus 3:14 and hence, the nature of the Holy Spirit is divine for he has a divine name per se.

The Personality of the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is a person because he is said to be Christ’s vicar on earth in the role of Comforter which in Greek it is styled as “ allon parakleton” of Christ per John 14:16. Christ is a person and he has a role of being our Comforter and hence, the Holy Spirit is a person too for he is an “another Comforter” like Christ, who is without a doubt ,a person.

The Holy Spirit in the immanent Trinity

In the economic Trinity, the Son is “the Life” of men while in the Immanent Trinity, the Holy Spirit, in his very title,is “the life’ of the Father and the Son. ( John 1:4, 1:14, Matthew 28:19).

The Life of the Father and the Son is a person too and hence, he is a living life per se.

The Holy Spirit in the economic Trinity

In the economic Trinity, the Holy Spirit is the divine Co-Creator with the Father and the Son and Co-Savior of the elect via sanctification (1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:4).

Notes:

Economic Trinity- relationship of the three persons to each other

Immanent Trinity- relationship of the three persons to creation
higgs

Con

there is three of everything. Three chips, three houses, and three cars. That mens that the trinipy is indeed un bibilacl! and thus rendering the imaginable prospect of haventing three of the gods of bible. Three is a magic number
Ya it is, it's a magic number
Somewhere in that ancient mystic trinity
You'll get three
As a magic number
The past, the present, the future,
Faith, and hope, and charity,
The heart, the brain, the body,
Will give you three,
It's a magic number

It takes three legs to make a tripod or to make a table stand,
And it takes three wheels to make a vehicle called a tricycle
And every triangle has three corners,
Every triangle has three sides,
No more, no less,
You don't have to guess
That it's three
Can't you see?
It's a magic number

A man and a woman had a little baby
Yeah they did
And there were three in the family
And that's a magic number

sources
http://www.silverfernz.com...
Debate Round No. 1
radz

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting my challenge but opponents argument is centered on the word ' Trinity', that it is a magic number. I do not know what he means by that and he argues in the form of lyrical music I guess.

Conclusion:

My opponent did not address my argument at all.
higgs

Con

everyones argument is invalid
Debate Round No. 2
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
higgs

Con

Mateo 28:19 ( NVI ) Por tanto, id y haced disc"pulos a todas las naciones, bautiz"ndolos en el nombre del Padre y del Hijo y del Esp"ritu Santo.

* El nombre (del griego onoma ), - indica el nombre , la autoridad .

El Nombre

En la religi"n hebrea , el nombre de la deidad jud"a es " YHWH" . Este es el nombre personal del Dios de Israel. Es el llamado " tetragr"maton " ( Las cuatro letras ) . En Ingl"s , se traduce literalmente como sea Yahv" o Jehov" pero es com"nmente traducida como " Jehov" " como un sustituto a la literal , debido a la absoluta distinci"n que se otorga al nombre divino name.This sagrado fue dado a conocer por el mismo Dios y su nombre revela su naturaleza eterna ( "xodo 03:14 ) .

En la LXX , el nombre es " Kurios " y "ho theos " . Lo mismo en el Nuevo Testamento.
Paul cree que Jes"s tiene los mismos rasgos de Yahv" :

YAHWEH

" Ved ahora que yo , yo soy , Y no hay dioses conmigo ; Yo hago morir y hago vivir , yo hiero y yo sano ; . Y no hay quien pueda librar de mi mano " Deuteronomio 32:39

"Tambi"n a partir de ahora yo soy , y no hay quien pueda librar de mi mano, yo trabajo, y qui"n la har" retroceder ? " Isa"as 43:13

JESUS

" Yo les doy vida eterna y no perecer"n jam"s , ni nadie las arrebatar" de mi mano . Mi Padre, que me las ha dado a m", es mayor que todos , y nadie las puede arrebatar de la la mano del Padre . yo y el Padre somos uno. " Juan 10:28-30

El Padre y el Hijo

En [ el] principio era el Verbo , y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era con Dios God.Itwas en el beginning.All cosas vinieron a existir por medio de "l , y sin "l nada de vino a la existencia , que ha venido a la existencia . Juan 1:1-3

La Palabra es una "cosa " a pesar de que es un verdadero ejemplo de subsistencia a una persona . Es porque "l es "Dios " en cuanto a su sustancia , es decir la naturaleza [ los " theos " griego carece el art"culo definido y el contexto altamente implica su car"cter cualitativo ] y Dios en el judeo-cristianismo no es ni masculino ni femenino, es decir, que es sin sexo , pero un esp"ritu (Juan 4:24 ) .

Nadie ha visto jam"s a Dios , el "nico - offsrping , Dios en cuanto a su sustancia , que isin el seno del Padre , esto ( el Padre) que "l ( el "nico descendiente que es Dios en la naturaleza) s" mostr" ( revelar , ex"gesis ) . Juan 1:18

La Palabra en Juan 1:01 tiene la " gloria de ser el "nico descendiente del Padre " en Juan 1:14 y se dice que es "la "nica - offpsring que es Dios en cuanto a su naturaleza" en Juan 1:18 y por "ltimo, la ""nica e hijos , un hijo ' en Juan 3:16,18 , 1 Juan 4:09 .

Por lo tanto , la identificaci"n de la Palabra como el Hijo por s" el hecho de Father.This muestra el contexto en que el t"tulo " Palabra" (griego: logos ) del Hijo se refiere a su papel en la Trinidad econ"mica (es decir, la relaci"n de la Trinidad de creaci"n). la palabra griega " logos " significa " mensaje , la raz"n, la palabra " y por lo tanto , cuando se aplica al Hijo , significa que es la comunicaci"n del Padre al mundo . "l es el que muestra , explica y revela al Padre a la creaci"n.

La Palabra no es igual a Dios en la autoridad y el papel , sino que es igual a Dios en todo traits.trait denota un atributo , calidad, characteristicand todo el traitsthat Dios se llama colectivamente naturaleza.

El Verbo era Dios ( griego: theos een ho logos) : El sujeto es el sintagma nominal "el Verbo" . El verbo "era" (griego: een ) significa "existencia continua en el pasado " porque gramaticalmente es la forma activa imperfecta inindicative del verbo " eimi " Este verbo es en contraste con convertirse en la carne de la palabra en el vers"culo 14 , donde el verbo " . se utiliz" egeneto " . Esto demuestra expl"citamente que la preexistencia continua de la Palabra y de su carne convertirse en un punto espec"fico del tiempo.El palabra griega " theos " es en el caso nominativo predicativo . En la gram"tica griega , esto denota tres cosas, pero s"lo uno de ellos es el correcto significado de Juan. As" que vamos a escrutar :

( 1 ) Definido (Dios) No puede ser definida por el Verbo era con Dios

( 2 ) Indefinido ( un dios ) No puede ser indefinida , ya trav"s de la Palabra todo lo que vino a la existencia ex nihilo .

( 3 ) cualitativo ( Dios en la naturaleza , Dios como adj . ) Esta es la "nica que se ajusta tanto el contexto inmediato y el contexto m"s amplio . La Palabra tiene la naturaleza de Dios que est" con .

La Palabra no es igual a Dios en la autoridad y el papel porque "l es el Hijo. Autoridad denota el derecho a usar la habilidad innata , el permiso para actuar y el papel denota una posici"n particular y function.As un Hijo , que es propio y natural de estar bajo la patria potestad de su padre y el rol paternal.

Fue a trav"s de la Palabra que Dios cre" todas las cosas . La Palabra y el Hijo es la misma Sabidur"a y Poder de Dios . La Palabra , el "nico descendiente que es la deidad de la naturaleza, se le dio y enviado por el Padre en el momento justo para el mundo. El Verbo asumi" la naturaleza de un slave.He humana ' s el Siervo del Padre, el Ap"stol , Sumo Sacerdote y Mediador , y por otra parte , el Mes"as y Salvador.

El Padre y el Hijo son iguales en todas las cosas , excepto en persona y property.Person personal denota un individuo racional , intelectual, y distinta que tiene emoci"n y volition.The Padre y el Hijo no son iguales en person.They no son la misma persona, pero m"s bien, son dos propiedades persons.Personal significa algo que una persona posee intr"nsecamente . La primera persona de la propiedad personal de la Trinidad es la paternidad de su hijo y de la propiedad personal de la segunda persona es su filiaci"n con el Padre.

El Esp"ritu Santo

La divinidad del Esp"ritu Santo

El Esp"ritu Santo es consustancial con el Padre y el Hijo , porque "l igualmente acciones en el nombre de ellos , que es YHWH por Mateo 28:19 . Nombre s Dios " expresa su naturaleza per "xodo 03:14 y por lo tanto , la naturaleza del Esp"ritu Santo es divino porque tiene un nombre divino en s".

La Personalidad del Esp"ritu Santo

El Esp"ritu Santo es una persona porque se dice que es el vicario de Cristo en la tierra , en el papel de Consolador que en griego es de estilo como " Allon parakleton " de Cristo por Juan 14:16 . Cristo es una persona y tiene un papel de ser nuestro Consolador y por lo tanto , el Esp"ritu Santo es una persona demasiado para "l es un " otro Consolador " como Cristo , que es, sin duda , una persona.

El Esp"ritu Santo en la Trinidad inmanente

En la Trinidad econ"mica , el Hijo es " la vida" de los hombres , mientras que en la Trinidad inmanente , el Esp"ritu Santo, en su propio t"tulo , es "la vida del Padre y del Hijo. (Juan 1:04 , 1:14, Mateo 28:19 ) .

La vida del Padre y el Hijo es una persona demasiado y por lo tanto , es un vivir la vida en s".

El Esp"ritu Santo en la Trinidad econ"mica

En la Trinidad econ"mica , el Esp"ritu Santo es el Co- Creador divina con el Padre y el Hijo y el Co- Salvador de los elegidos a trav"s de la santificaci"n ( 1 Pedro 1:2 , 2 Pedro 1:4 ) .

Notas:

Trinidad relaci"n econ"mica de las tres personas entre s"

Trinidad Inmanente - relaci"n de las tres personas a la creaci"n de
Debate Round No. 3
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
higgs

Con

higgs forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
radz

Pro

radz forfeited this round.
higgs

Con

higgs forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Mucius_Scaevola 3 years ago
Mucius_Scaevola
And dj21 is proving almost exactly my point though, i forgot to includes deists and people who share the same opinion with Thomas Jefferson on the matter. dj21 implies he is not a theist, and from what i can infer Jesus to him might be some kind of prophet or maybe a philosopher, and definitely not divine. so in my opinion it would be very difficult indeed to label dj21 as a christian at least by conventional definitions.
Of course the opinions and philosophies of people on religion is about as varied as the amount of stars in the universe so any knowledge i claim to have about dj21's beliefs is merely potential inference and my own rationale.
Posted by dj21 3 years ago
dj21
I am a longtime Christian who views the trinitarian concept as a Platonic late addition to orthodoxy, like original sin and perhaps Jesus' divinity altogether. It's no wonder YHWH was peeved at the idolatrous Christians in the Qur'an. Ha. I probably don't care enough to debate it though. Pro spent a lot of time on the first round and probably feels like doing a lot of research. I don't. Ha. I do already have a slew of non-Trinitarian references in a doc from when I cared, but I'm sure I'd need to dig up more. Plus, who would vote for me? The only ones who'd look at this debate are likely theists, and likely trinitarians. But it would be fun...
Posted by BennyW 3 years ago
BennyW
Or a Mormon
Posted by Mucius_Scaevola 3 years ago
Mucius_Scaevola
Other than those who argue for the sake of arguing, you will have a hard time finding a contender most christian who are interested in theology already believe the trinity is biblical and most atheist/non-Christians don't care. so the person you are looking for to contend would be probably an arian or some kind of new age/apostate nominal christian. Other than that it is doubtful you will find a serious contender.
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