The Instigator
Stupidape
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Akhenaten
Pro (for)
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0 Points

The Thimerosal found in vaccines causes autism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/26/2015 Category: Science
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 373 times Debate No: 81559
Debate Rounds (4)
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Stupidape

Con

Topic: The Thimerosal found in vaccines causes autism

I Con will argue against the topic.

Pro will argue for the topic.

"Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes." fda.gov

"Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by impaired social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication, and restricted and repetitive behavior." wikipedia

http://www.fda.gov...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Akhenaten

Pro

http://www.prweb.com...

For nearly ten years, Brian Hooker has been requesting documents that are kept under tight wraps by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). His more than 100 Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests have resulted in copious evidence that the vaccine preservative Thimerosal, which is still used in the flu shot that is administered to pregnant women and infants, can cause autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders.
Dr. Hooker, a PhD scientist, worked with two members of Congress to craft the letter to the CDC that recently resulted in his obtaining long-awaited data from the CDC, the significance of which is historic. According to Hooker, the data on over 400,000 infants born between 1991 and 1997, which was analyzed by CDC epidemiologist Thomas Verstraeten, MD, "proves unequivocally that in 2000, CDC officials were informed internally of the very high risk of autism, non-organic sleep disorder and speech disorder associated with Thimerosal exposure."
When the results of the Verstraeten study were first reported outside the CDC in 2005, there was no evidence that anyone but Dr. Verstraeten within the CDC had known of the very high 7.6-fold elevated relative risk of autism from exposure to Thimerosal during infancy. But now, clear evidence exists. A newly-acquired abstract from 1999 titled, "Increased risk of developmental neurologic impairment after high exposure to Thimerosal containing vaccine in first month of life" required the approval of top CDC officials prior to its presentation at the Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) conference. Thimerosal, which is 50% mercury by weight, was used in most childhood vaccines and in the RhoGAM" shot for pregnant women prior to the early 2000s.
The CDC maintains there is "no relationship between Thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism rates in children," even though the data from the CDC"s own Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) database shows a very high risk. There are a number of public records to back this up, including this Congressional Record from May 1, 2003. The CDC"s refusal to acknowledge thimerosal"s risks is exemplified by a leaked statement from Dr. Marie McCormick, chair of the CDC/NIH-sponsored Immunization Safety Review at IOM. Regarding vaccination, she said in 2001, ""we are not ever going to come down that it [autism] is a true side effect"." Also of note, the former director of the CDC, which purchases $4 billion worth of vaccines annually, is now president of Merck"s vaccine division.
Dr. Hooker"s fervent hope for the future: "We must ensure that this and other evidence of CDC malfeasance are presented to Congress and the public as quickly as possible. Time is of the essence. Children"s futures are at stake." A divide within the autism community has led to some activists demanding that compensation to those with vaccine-injury claims be the top priority before Congress. Dr. Hooker maintains that prevention, "protecting our most precious resource " children"s minds," must come first. "Our elected officials must be informed about government corruption that keeps doctors and patients in the dark about vaccine risks."
Referring to an organization that has seen its share of controversy this past year, Dr. Hooker remarked, "It is unfortunate that SafeMinds issued a press release on my information, is accepting credit for my work and has not supported a worldwide ban on Thimerosal."
Brian Hooker, PhD, PE, has 15 years experience in the field of bioengineering and is an associate professor at Simpson University where he specializes in biology and chemistry. His over 50 science and engineering papers have been published in internationally recognized, peer-reviewed journals. Dr. Hooker has a son, aged 16, who developed normally but then regressed into autism after receiving Thimerosal-containing vaccines.
Debate Round No. 1
Stupidape

Con

"Indeed, looking at the odds ratios the authors report""in which 1 means no effect of vaccine or other variable on odds and less than 1 means reduced odds""the data suggest reduced autism risk among children who received the MMR vaccine." forbes.com

"Some other vaccines, including the measles, mumps, and
rubella vaccine (MMR) never contained any preservative or
any mercury. " cdc.gov

As you can see the MMR vaccine never contained any Thimerosal. Thus Thimerosal cannot be the cause of Autism.

My opponent's argument relies upon a sole source. "According to Hooker, the data on over 400,000 infants born between 1991 and 1997, which was analyzed by CDC epidemiologist Thomas Verstraeten, MD, "proves unequivocally that in 2000, CDC officials were informed internally of the very high risk of autism, non-organic sleep disorder and speech disorder associated with Thimerosal exposure." prweb.com

This is a bare assertion on Hooker's part. Where is the proof? I'm looking at the gpo.gov link. This a pdf. How do I know its really a congressional record? It could just as easily be forgery. Also autism is talked a lot in the link, yet I'm not finding this unequivocal proof Hooker speaks of.

I argue that my opponent is using scare tactics to market a low-carb diet. What would be the incentives for this? Who would profit? The meat industry. This industry will stop at nothing to promote their diets. Taking away from the fact that meat production is cruel and harms the environment is devastating ways. Also the funeral homes benefit from this misinformation.

As you can see food is big money, 2.45 trillion. 27% of which is processed meat.

http://www.forbes.com...
http://www.cdc.gov...
http://www.gpo.gov...
http://www.foodmanufacturing.com...
Akhenaten

Pro

My opponent has ignored the evidence. The evidence has been hidden from the public which is an indication of how the pharmaceutical industry operates. They have plenty of money to spend on lawyers to protect their corrupt practices. Just as large corporations spend millions on lawyers and accountants to hide their income and profits, the pharmaceutical industry spends millions on preventing litigation and blame when things go wrong.

You can't produce a vaccine without putting in some toxic chemicals as a preservative. If they don't put in Thimerosal, then they add formaldehyde or aluminium. All these poisonous chemicals have roughly the same effect, which is autism, cancer and general nervous system damage of one variety or another.

http://articles.mercola.com...

If you think that these chemicals are harmless, then I challenge anybody to drink a small teaspoon of one of these chemicals and see if they can stay alive for more than 10 seconds.

Most children receive 21 vaccination shots, so my opponents statement that MMR vaccines doesn't contain Thimerosal is
very weak and unconvincing.

http://www.naturalnews.com...#

The truth is, there have been several court cases where families have been granted damage pay-outs due to what vaccines and their ingredients have done to their children. The cases are directly linked to autism and brain damage.

http://www.collective-evolution.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Stupidape

Con

"Just as large corporations spend millions on lawyers and accountants to hide their income and profits, the pharmaceutical industry spends millions on preventing litigation and blame when things go wrong." Pro

See how Pro uses that the pharmaceutical industry is very rich and powerful. My opponent uses Mercola again. An advocate of a low-carb diet. This is about as transparent as you can get. Pro relies upon conspiracy theories and seems intent on ignoring main stream science. Here's a conspiracy theory of my own.

The meat industry is cornered, like the tobacco industry. There is no rational reason to eat meat.
0. Bad for your health
1. huge negative impact on the environment
2. animal cruelty
3. costs more

What does an incredible powerful and selfish industry do? It finds a way to put a positive spin on health. Paleo, low-carb, primal living, caveman diet, and the Atkins diet. Its all different names for same idea. With 27% of 2.45 trillion on the line that's .27*2.45T = .6615T or 661.5 billion dollars on the line. No wonder there is resistance.

"Conclusion

A critical reading of the current literature certainly supports the dietary trends of decreased carbohydrate intake (especially of neocarbs), increased protein intake, and increased fat intake (especially of monounsaturates and N-3 polyunsaturates). The data that supports these contentions comes from a wide spectrum of disciplines, including the basic sciences, medical science, epidemiology, and anthropology." by Joseph Brasco, MD

So who's right and who's wrong? We are dealing with the incredibly powerful meat industry promoting a low-carb diet. Versus the medical and pharmaceutical industry. The meat industry takes life. In cruel profit maximizing ways.

Doctors on the other hand take their hypocritical oath. "First to to do no harm" and are here to protect life. My opponent argues I've ignored the evidence. I don't see any evidence. Did I miss it somewhere? Maybe my opponent can highlight the evidence so I can see it.

"The truth is, there have been several court cases where families have been granted damage pay-outs due to what vaccines and their ingredients have done to their children. The cases are directly linked to autism and brain damage." Pro

I'm not stupid, I already know this. There is always a small chance of a bad reaction.
"Severe Problems Serious allergic reaction (very rare - less than once in 100,000 doses)." CDC.

"Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)" CDC.

It seems you are taking a few freak incidents one out of a million doses and exaggerating the effects.

"If you think that these chemicals are harmless, then I challenge anybody to drink a small teaspoon of one of these chemicals and see if they can stay alive for more than 10 seconds." Pro

Ha a teaspoon is hardly any amount of liquid. I'll make a video of me taking a teaspoon of mercury and being just fine to prove you wrong. In fact I bet a teaspoon of mercury is good for a person. We need trace elements in our diet.

"This includes materials such as mercury, lead, cadmium, and even arsenic, which can be found in vitamin supplements manufactured for human consumption. While these are, in fact, necessary for proper nutrition " Wisegeek.org

See mercury, lead, cadmium, and arsenic are healthy for humans. I think I've proven my point that thimersal doesn't cause autism. In fact according to this wisegeek article they are healthy. People need proof though. For round 4 I will post a video of me consuming a teaspoon of each of these chemicals to prove my opponent wrong.

http://www.mercola.com...
http://www.cdc.gov...
http://www.wisegeek.org...
Akhenaten

Pro

This debate is about whether Thimerosal causes autism. I have shown several court cases where litigation has been proven and that Thimerosal was found to be the cause of autism. My opponent says that a few court cases doesn't prove anything. This is a misconception. I only have to provide proof of just one case of where Thimerosal has caused autism, then, my case is adequately proven.

Extract from a medical research document

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Living organisms require varying amounts of heavy metals. Iron, cobalt, copper, manganese, molybdenum, and zinc are required by humans.[10] All metals are toxic at higher concentrations.[9] Excessive levels can be damaging to the organism. Other heavy metals such as mercury, plutonium, and lead are toxic metals that have no known vital or beneficial effect on organisms, and their accumulation over time in the bodies of animals can cause serious illness. Certain elements that are normally toxic are for certain organisms or under certain conditions, beneficial. Examples include vanadium, tungsten, and even cadmium.

Note - Mercury is not considered to be beneficial or necessary for living organisms by medical researchers. Thus, my opponents has provided false and misleading information.
Debate Round No. 3
Stupidape

Con

My opponent continues to ignore the possible corruption by the meat industry. Billions of dollars at stake. I find it very interesting that Mercola is promoting both a low-carb diet and anti-vaccine at the same time.

"A prime argument often used for the justification and support of today's highly aggressive mandatory vaccination programs in the U.S. and around the world is the alleged success of the polio vaccine. Wild type polio was declared eradicated in the US in 1979 and in the western hemisphere in 1994." Mercola

"A low-carb diet and a Mediterranean-style diet both helped people lose more weight than a traditional low-fat diet in one of the longest and largest studies to compare the various weight-loss techniques." Mercola

As seen above the processed meat industry is worth over half a trillion dollars.

There is no logical reason to eat meat with the possible exception of fish and omega's 3s:
0. detrimental to health
1. huge negative impact on the environment
2. animal cruelty
3. costs more

0. Health
For health fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, and excess animal protein have been shown to be unhealthy. Meanwhile antioxidants, fiber, and leafy greens have been proven to be healthy.

"Forks Over Knives examines the profound claim that most, if not all, of the degenerative diseases that afflict us can be controlled, or even reversed, by rejecting our present menu of animal-based and processed foods." FoK

"It took a study comparing meat-eaters to vegans to show that higher IGF-1 levels were only associated with animal protein intake. In fact, plant protein seemed to decrease IGF-1 levels. Animal protein appears to send a much different signal to our livers than most plant proteins. Even vegans eating the same amount of protein as meateaters still had lower levels of the IGF-1" Michael Greger, MD

1. Environment
"Many fishing practices are extremely destructive to delicate habitats - particularly vital fish breeding grounds like coral reefs and seagrass meadows." wwf.org

"The cattle sector in the Brazilian Amazon is the largest driver of deforestation in the world, responsible for one in every eight hectares destroyed globally. Efforts to halt global deforestation emissions must tackle this sector. " greenpeace

2. Animal Cruelty

https://www.youtube.com...

"In order to maintain uninterrupted milk production, cows are forced year after year to go through an endless cycle of pregnancy and birth, only to have their calves immediately taken from them. Cows and calves cry out for each other as they are separated.

All forms of dairy farming involve forcibly impregnating cows. This involves a person inserting his arm far into the cow"s rectum in order to position the uterus, and then forcing an instrument into her vagina. The restraining apparatus used is commonly called a "rape rack." humanemyth.org

3. Economy
This table from a peer reviewed journal here shows that grains are the cheapest food.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org...

As for the mercury "Since trace elements provide nutritional value, they are sometimes referred to as micronutrients. It may come as a surprise to some people, however, that certain heavy metals are included as a sub-class of this family. This includes materials such as mercury, lead, cadmium, and even arsenic, which can be found in vitamin supplements manufactured for human consumption. While these are, in fact, necessary for proper nutrition in nearly microscopic amounts, too much can be toxic. "wisegeek

In other words the poison is in the dose. Just like water small amounts are healthy and large amounts can kill you. Yes your source is more reputable, yet that doesn't automatically make you correct.

"These include essential elements, such as iodine and zinc, probably essential elements, such as manganese and silicon, and potentially toxic elements, such as fluoride, lead, cadmium and mercury, which may also have some essential functions at low levels. " who.int

Even if there is no healthy benefits of mercury "Jan. 7, 2008 -- Autism rates continue to go up despite removal of thimerosal, which contains a form of mercury, from nearly all child vaccines, California data show." WebMd.

Though I think you stated some other preservative replaced the thimerosal. "You can't produce a vaccine without putting in some toxic chemicals as a preservative. If they don't put in Thimerosal, then they add formaldehyde or aluminium. All these poisonous chemicals have roughly the same effect, which is autism, cancer and general nervous system damage of one variety or another." Pro

Lol, found this on my first search "Our results show that: (i) children from countries with the highest ASD prevalence appear to have the highest exposure to Al from vaccines" J Inorg Biochem. 2011 Nov;105(11):1489-99. doi: 10.1016/j.jinorgbio.2011.08.008. Epub 2011 Aug 23. Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?

As you can see aluminum causes ASD, autism spectral disorder and not autism. Couldn't find anything on formaldehyde. I did find this though "Babies exposed to air pollution in the womb are more likely to have autism than those whose mothers spend pregnancy in clean air, according to a new study." Kathleen Miles

Finally consider this. Even if I'm 100% wrong about vaccine preservatives not causing autism opportunistic people may exploit this opportunity to promote low carb diets. Wow, this person saved me from the evil vaccines, now I will buy lots and lots of products from him or her. Just because a person is right in one category doesn't mean he or she is correct in another.

I have to take a break for a while. Was fun. Hopefully I'll be back in a few weeks. :)

Sources:
http://vaccines.mercola.com...
http://articles.mercola.com...
http://articles.mercola.com...
http://www.foodmanufacturing.com...
http://www.forksoverknives.com...
http://nutritionfacts.org...
http://wwf.panda.org...
http://www.greenpeace.org...
https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.humanemyth.org...
http://ajcn.nutrition.org...
http://www.wisegeek.org...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Akhenaten

Pro

Quote - For health fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, and excess animal protein have been shown to be unhealthy. Meanwhile antioxidants, fiber, and leafy greens have been proven to be healthy.

Reply - It was assumed that fat was the cause of heart disease in the late 1970's, so the world governments started an advertising campaign to reduce the consumption of red meat and fat. This has resulted in a 30% increase in the consumption of carbohydrates which has in turn caused an 30% increase in the incidence of diabetes and other insulin related disorders.

You may realize how the whole world is so anti-fat these days? The whole anti-fat movement started back in the late 1970s, and it was based on a series of totally flawed studies conducted by a man many consider a criminal who has probably been responsible for more deaths than Hitler himself. His name is Ancel Keys.
Keys published a study of six countries, where he stated that higher saturated fat intake leads to higher rates of heart disease. However, we now know that he conveniently left out data from 16 other countries that didn"t fit his theory. If he had presented data from all 22 of the countries he studied, it would have shown that increasing the percentage of fat in your diet actually reduces the number of deaths from heart disease.
Taking Keys" flawed data, the Government started an anti-fat campaign in 1977, in an effort to reduce the rates of heart disease. The thing is though, that if you reduce the amount of fat in your diet, then you have to eat either more protein or more carbs to make up for the reduction of fats in your diet.
Since carbs are tastier and so much cheaper than proteins, a low-fat diet usually means you end up going on a high carbohydrate diet. From the late 1970s, Supermarket shelves started to be stacked with "low-fat" labels all over the place. All these advertising campaigns were not only claiming that "low fat means low risk of heart disease," they were also saying that you can"t get fat while eating something that"s low in fat. They assumed that only fat can make you fat.
But we"ve known for a very long time now that the main source of stored fat in your body comes from carbohydrates that are converted to fat in your liver with the help of the hormone insulin.

The notion that only eating fat can make you fat is something that"s easy to believe if you haven"t done your research. The public soaked up all those lies like a dry sponge, and even today, despite all the evidence to the contrary, most people believe that anything low fat is good for you.
But here"s an interesting observation.
Ever since the public really took hold of the anti-fat movement in the late 1970s, the rates of both obesity and heart disease have rocketed.
Donald Miller, a cardiac surgeon and Professor of Surgery at the University of Washington School of Medicine in Seattle, said the following in an article written in 2011:
"There were 500 cardiologists practicing in the U.S. in 1950. There are 30,000 of them now " a 60-fold increase for a population that has only doubled since 1950."
In a 2010 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, the researchers found that when you replace saturated fat with a higher carbohydrate intake, you increase insulin resistance and obesity, and increase your chances of getting heart disease by increasing triglycerides and small LDL particles, and reducing beneficial HDL cholesterol.

http://chestsculpting.com...

My opponent is protecting a corrupt medical system from litigation and blame. As we can see from the above example, the medical system makes big mistakes which cause the premature death of millions of people but does nothing to turn it around or to advise the public of their mistakes. This is because the medical system benefits from their own mistakes and makes a fortune out of death and misery.
Debate Round No. 4
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