The Instigator
Renzzy
Pro (for)
Losing
55 Points
The Contender
PublicForumG-d
Con (against)
Winning
66 Points

The Trinity Doctrine: Three Different Persons, All Equally God, All the Same God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/9/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,514 times Debate No: 3969
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (15)
Votes (39)

 

Renzzy

Pro

Fist of all, I would like to apologize for the unusually long title. I needed more space in order to encompass the topic I would like to discus clearly.

Thank you to whoever accepts this debate!

The Trinity Doctrine is a rather controversial topic, and there are amy people on both sides of the argument. I believe that The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. I believe that they are all equally God, and that they all make up one God.

With that, I will allow my opponent to make the first arguments.

Thanks!

Renzzy
PublicForumG-d

Con

Let me just say that first, I agree personally with Pro. However, for a challenge, I'm going to go against it.

Matthew 19:16-17
"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?'

And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.' "

Jesus did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments.

When asked, Jesus merely repeated what Moses had said earlier:
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
Mark 12:29

He also said "I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will but the will of the Father who has sent me." (Imagine God cant do anything himself?)

I'll go into more Scripture later, but this generally explains it.
Debate Round No. 1
Renzzy

Pro

Hello, and thanks for accepting! I am going to go a bit out of order and post my arguments first, and then move on to refuting your arguments.

Point 1: THE FATHER IS GOD

The Bible teaches this clearly.

John 17:3---
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Isaiah 42:8---
"I AM the Lord, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."

I think we will both agree that there are far more scripture to back this, so I will not post any more for the sake of space. If you would like me to, I can in later arguments.

Point 2: THE SON IS GOD

Many verses in the Bible make this clear. Take these for example.

1 Tim. 3:16---
"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

John 10:30---
"I [Jesus] and the Father are one."

John 20:28---
"Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

John 1:1-5---
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

John 17:10---
"All I [Jesus] have is yours [The Father's], and all you have is mine. And my glory is shown through them."

I can post more verses In later arguments if you would like. For now, however, I thnik this will suffice.

Point 3: THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD

This is also clearly taught in the Bible.

Acts 5:3-4---
"Peter said, "Ananias, why did you let Satan rule your thoughts to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT and to keep for yourself part of the money you received for the land? Before you sold the land, it belonged to you. And even after you sold it, you could have used the money any way you wanted. Why did you think of doing this? YOU LIED TO GOD, NOT TO US!"

2 Cor. 3:17---
"The Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

Matt. 12:31-32---
"So I tell you, people can be forgiven for every sin and everything they say against God. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, now or in the future."

(http://www.lifetalk.net...)

Here you can read about how the Spirit share all of the same attributes of God.

Point 4: THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD

"You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other" (Deuteronomy 4:35)

"There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God" (1 Samuel 2:2)

"How great you are, O Sovereign Lord! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears" (2 Samuel 7:22)

"So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other" (1 Kings 8:60)

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me" (Isaiah 45:5)
(http://www.wcg.org...)

I think this is all that need be said on this matter.

These scriputers show that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God, yet there is only one God.

Now to your arguements...

First of all I would like to point out that you copied and pasted your arguments from the following website: (http://answers.yahoo.com...).

This site uses Matthew 19:16-17. In this passage Jesus appears to say that He is not good, but only God is good. This, however, is not the case.When He says...

"Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good."

...He is simply asking the man if he knows to whom he is speaking. Christians recognize God an=s the only one who is truly good, so Jesus was asking him this, He was more saying "you do know who you are talking to, right?". Rather then denying His diety in this passage, He was comfirming it.

This site also quotes John 5:30, which reads:

John 5:30---
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

In this passage Jesus is not saying that He can do nothing at all, rather He is saying that here on earth, He was doing His Father's bidding. He came to earth to accomplish the will of the Father, and that was that Jesus die on the cross. In another passage He says:

Luke 22:42---
"saying, 'Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.'"

Jesus is by no means saying that He can do nothing of his own accord. If He was, it would contradict all of the above passages saying that He is God.

Mark 12:29---
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."

This passage could be added onto my list of verses that prove there is but one God. This is true. There is only one God, but this one God exists in three equal persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Thanks!

Renzzy
PublicForumG-d

Con

Your own Scripture supports my conclusion.

John 17:3---
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The only true G-d AND Jesus Christ? If they were the same, that's redundant. But John takes the time to specifically differentiate between Jesus and G-d.

And then we get more (from you):

"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

So, there's G-d the father then.....a different manifestation? They make the clear distinction. They then go on to say how the manifestation (Jesus) was vindicated by the Spirit. How can something vindicate itself? If Jesus was the same as the Spirit either, 1) Both needed vindication or 2) Neither did. Either way, this verse makes no sense if they're all one.

John 10:30 - nice trick. Let me post a little more context to the verse.

"29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no" one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Either Jesus has a thing for 3rd person address, or when he said "I and the Father are one" he meant, we work for a common goal. Since I dont think it makes sense that Jesus liked to talk himself, I think a Neg vote is in order.

""All I [Jesus] have is yours [The Father's], and all you have is mine. And my glory is shown through them."

So is Jesus talking to himself? If he is, this is how the sentence would read "All I have is mine, and all I have is mine." Does that make sense? No. He's addressing a seperate being.

Next you used this:

Acts 5:3-4---
"Peter said, "Ananias, why did you let Satan rule your thoughts to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT and to keep for yourself part of the money you received for the land? Before you sold the land, it belonged to you. And even after you sold it, you could have used the money any way you wanted. Why did you think of doing this? YOU LIED TO GOD, NOT TO US!"

So if I lied to my mom, and I lied to my dad, do my dad and mom have to be the same person?

This proves my point::

"So I tell you, people can be forgiven for every sin and everything they say against God. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, now or in the future."

So what it says is: 1) Speaking against the Holy spirit is NOT PERMISSABLE. But speaking against the Son of man IS permissable. If they're the same, how can the same action have different results?

All of these show how there are distinct and seperate relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your entire point four serves only to Glorify G-d (yay!) but doesn't further your point, whereas I have shown REPEATEDLY through Scripture how they're different.

Plus, he dropped all of MY scripture. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 2
Renzzy

Pro

"Your own Scripture supports my conclusion."

Unfortunately for you, you are taking the scriputure out of context.

John 17:3---
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

"The way to attain this eternal life is to acknowledge, worship, and obey, the one only true God, and to accept as teacher, sacrifice, and Saviour, the Lord Jesus, the one and only true Messiah. Bishop Pearce's remark here is well worthy the reader's attention:-

'What is said here of the only true God seems said in opposition to the gods whom the heathens worshipped; not in opposition to Jesus Christ himself, WHO IS CALLED THE TRUE GOD BY JOHN, in 1 John 5:20.'"

This was taken from Adam Clarke's commentary on the whole Bible. I believe this puts it in better words than I can.

1 Tim. 3:16---
"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

"The mystery of godliness, which is the pillar and ground of the truth, is, without controversy, a great thing. And then he proceeds to show what this mystery of godliness is, which he sums up in the six following particulars: 1. God was manifest in the flesh; 2. Justified in the Spirit; 3. Seen of angels; 4. Preached unto the Gentiles; 5. Believed on in the world; 6. Received up into glory."

This was Also taken from Adam Clarke's comomentary. I don't see why this was even disputable. It says that there are six mysteries of godliness, and proceeds to mention those six things, which end up as evidence for the trinity.

John 10:29-30---
"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Once again, I will point you to Adam Clarke's commentary because he explains things very clearly.

"Verse 29. My Father-is greater than all.
More powerful than all the united energies of men and demons. He who loves God must be happy; and he who fears him need fear nothing on this side eternity.

Verse 30. I and my Father are one.
If Jesus Christ were not God, could he have said these words without being guilty of blasphemy? It is worthy of remark that Christ does not say, I and MY Father, which my our translation very improperly supplies, and which in this place would have conveyed a widely different meaning: for then it would imply that the human nature of Christ, of which alone, I conceive, God is ever said to be the Father in Scripture, was equal to the Most High: but he says, speaking then as God over all, I and THE Father, εγωκαιοπατηρενεσμεν-the Creator of all things, the Judge of all men, the Father of the spirits of all flesh-are ONE, ONE in nature, ONE in all the attributes of Godhead, and ONE in all the operations of those attributes: and so it is evident the Jews understood him. See John 17:11,22."

In verse 29, Jesus is simply stating a fact. God is greater than all. In verse 30, Jesus is comfirming His own diety.

John 17:10---
"All I [Jesus] have is yours [The Father's], and all you have is mine. And my glory is shown through them."

You say...

"So is Jesus talking to himself? If he is, this is how the sentence would read "All I have is mine, and all I have is mine." Does that make sense? No. He's addressing a seperate being."

Um...yeah. Exactly what I am trying to tell you. Jesus is in fact addressing a seperate person, and that is God the Father.

In fact, at that time, Jesus is praying TO GOD THE FATHER. It is completely ludicrous to say that Jesus is not claiming to share the same attributes as God the Father. Why would He randomly start talking to a different person during a prayer to His Father only hours before His death?

"Acts 5:3-4---
"Peter said, "Ananias, why did you let Satan rule your thoughts to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT and to keep for yourself part of the money you received for the land? Before you sold the land, it belonged to you. And even after you sold it, you could have used the money any way you wanted. Why did you think of doing this? YOU LIED TO GOD, NOT TO US!"

You say...

"So if I lied to my mom, and I lied to my dad, do my dad and mom have to be the same person?"

Of course not. Are your mother and father God? Nope. They cannot, and will never be the same person.

This verse cannot be much more clear than it is. If you lie to the Spirit you lie to God. They are completely seperate persons, and completely one God. This scripture says that clearly. I could reference Adam Clarke again, but I would imagine you are growing rather tored of him, so I will spare you. If you would like, you can look it up yourself.(http://www.studylight.org...)

Matt. 12:31-32---
"So I tell you, people can be forgiven for every sin and everything they say against God. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, now or in the future."

Yup. Adam Clarke again.

"Even personal reproaches, revilings, persecutions against Christ, were remissible; but blasphemy, or impious speaking against the Holy Spirit was to have no forgiveness: i.e. when the person obstinately attributed those works to the devil, which he had the fullest evidence could be wrought only by the Spirit of God. That this, and nothing else, is the sin against the Holy Spirit, is evident from the connection in this place, and more particularly from Mark 3:28-30. 'All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme; but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation; BECAUSE they said, He hath an unclean spirit.'"

So, in other words this verse is referencing the unpardonable sin, which is against the Holy Spirit. Clearly then then Holy Spirit is God.

This verse is not evidence for you, as you think it is. Jesus came to earth to do his Fathers will. He knew the world would reject Him, and He knew that this response would be natural of humans. Not justifiable, but natural. Jesus knew that He would be ridiculed, and was willing to forgive it. I mean, no mas had ever seen God before, and no man can ever prepare himself for the experience.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit after what Jesus demonstrated was different story.

"All of these show how there are distinct and seperate relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your entire point four serves only to Glorify G-d (yay!) but doesn't further your point, whereas I have shown REPEATEDLY through Scripture how they're different."

There is a distinct seperation between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are completely different persons. They are also one God. You sound an aweful lot like an anti-trinitarian. Point four made the point it was supposed to make, and that was that there is only one God.

I am beginning to doubt that you read my source on the Holy Spirit that I gave you. It made it clear that the Spirit shares all the same attributes as God the Father.

"Plus, he dropped all of MY scripture."

Um...Did you actually read my argument? I addressed each of you verses in turn. It was right at the bottom of my argument. They were not actually "your" verses anyway. You copied and pasted from that website. You however ignored one of the verses I posted...

2 Cor. 3:17---
"The Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

You ignored this as well as the website I posted. Please read my arguments before condemning then.

Thanks,

Renzzy
PublicForumG-d

Con

PublicForumG-d forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Renzzy

Pro

Since my opponent missed his last round my arguments still stand. I would like to reiterate the fact that my I did NOT leave any of my opponents arguments, but rather refuted them all. Anyone who actually reads the debate will see this clearly.

As of right now, the following scripture stand as defended proof of my argument:

John 17:3---
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Tim. 3:16---
"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

John 10:29-30---
"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 17:10---
"All I [Jesus] have is yours [The Father's], and all you have is mine. And my glory is shown through them."

Acts 5:3-4---
"Peter said, "Ananias, why did you let Satan rule your thoughts to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT and to keep for yourself part of the money you received for the land? Before you sold the land, it belonged to you. And even after you sold it, you could have used the money any way you wanted. Why did you think of doing this? YOU LIED TO GOD, NOT TO US!"

Matt. 12:31-32---
"So I tell you, people can be forgiven for every sin and everything they say against God. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, now or in the future."

2 Cor. 3:17---
"The Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

I would also like to add the following verse to my list...

1 John 5:20---
"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."

Jesus Christ IS the true God, as are the Spirit and the Father.

My arguments stand and await refutation.

Thanks,

Renzzy
PublicForumG-d

Con

As I have CFL Nationals coming up, this shall be brief.

I am going to point out that you dropped ALL of my R2 Scripture. I showed several instances where G-d and Jesus and the Spirit are shown to be multiple different people.

You ignored these, and whined that I didn't go to the websites you posted. Yet you didn't post any of the arguments....So its not a drop, its just not arguing. If I go "Well according to my research here, vote AFF" and never read the research, its irrelavent

REFUTING YOU AGAIN::

Many Bible Verses Prove Jesus Was Not God

There is a direct statement about Jesus being the Son of Jehovah in the Psalms: "...He said to me, 'You [Jesus] are my son, today I [Jehovah] have begotten you." (Psalm 2:7)

Jehovah spoke to Jesus, in His pre-human existence, concerning the creation of Adam and Eve: "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ....'" (Genesis 1:26)

There were plans, from the beginning, to make Jesus a human as shown in Deuteronomy: "...he [Jehovah] will raise up for you a Prophet [Jesus] like me [Moses], an Israeli, a man to whom you must listen and whom you must obey." (Deuteronomy 18:15, TLB; see also Acts 3:22)

During His ministry on Earth, Jesus stated that He taught not His own wisdom, but that of His Father, Jehovah: "For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak." (John 12:49)

There are a large number of Bible verses which can be used to prove that Jesus was not God, but the Son of God. The chapter of this thesis, "VII. Bible Verses Prove Trinity False", lists over a hundred such texts.

The Bible, therefore, teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Jehovah said He would send His Son and Jesus made the statement that Jehovah was His Father. The Apostles taught these facts. The Bible does not teach that Jesus was Jehovah and neither Jesus nor His followers claimed otherwise.

V. The Holy Spirit

Probably one of the most accentuated subjects in most Christian religions has been that of the Holy Spirit. It is probably the least understood subject, too.

To get the true meaning of the Holy Spirit, we must obtain the true context in which the term is used and, also, harmonize its meaning throughout the Bible.

The English word "spirit" is usually translated from the Hebrew (ruach) and Greek (pneuma) words meaning "wind" or "breath,"(19) and by several extended meanings: "dominate feeling," "spirit persons," and "vital or active force."(20)

An example of the Hebrew word trans translated as "wind" is found in Zechariah: "...Flee from the land of the north, says the LORD; for I have spread you abroad as the four winds [ruach] of the heavens ...." (Zechariah 2:6)

In Job is found an example of the same word translated as "air": "One is so near to another that no air [ruach] can come between them." (Job 41:16)

There are numerous scriptures translating the words as "sprit persons": "Then a spirit [ruach] came forward and stood before the LORD ...." (1 Kings 22:21) and "... immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit [pneuma] ...." (Mark 1:23)

When the Bible speaks of God's Holy Spirit, it speaks of God's invisible active force. There is no Bible description which indicates that it is a person.

A fine example of this idea is expressed in a story about Samson:

"Then Samson went down with his father and mother to Timnah, and he came to the vineyards of Timnah. And behold, a young lion roared against him, and the Spirit [ruach] of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he tore the lion asunder as one tears a kid ...." (Judges 14:5-6)

In the New Testament, "pneuma" is translated as God's Holy Spirit in the book of Romans:

"I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done -- by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit [pneuma] ...." (Romans 15:18-19, NIV)

God's Invisible Active Force

The New Testament "texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God." Evidence of this is indicted in what the Angel told Mary concerning her upcoming pregnancy: "And the Angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you ....'" (Luke 1:35; see also Luke 24:49 and John 20:22-23)

Some Bible verses also speak of God's Holy Spirit as being the disposition of God, either in Himself or in others.

God's disposition can take the form of wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, truth, promise, etc.: "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God." (1 Corinthians 2:12; see also Isaiah 11:2; John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13; 17:17; Genesis 22:16-18)

The idea of the Holy Spirit being part of a "Godhead" was not in the minds of the earliest Church members. The place and character which the Holy Spirit now possesses in Christianity can be credited to the Cappadocians. (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Vol. 15,)

It is apparent that the Holy Spirit is not a person as implied by the personal pronoun "he" in some scripture (see John 14:17, KJV), but a power, or force, as correctly indicated by the imprsonal "it" in Romans: "The Spirit itself beareth witness ...." (Romans 8:16, KJV)

While it can be said that the Holy Spirit reflects personality (that of Jehovah and all who display His attributes), it is obvious, from scriptural research, that the Holy Spirit is not a person.

VI. Conclusion

Concerning the Christian Trinity concept, J. L. Mckenzie, in his book, Dictionary of the Bible, states: "The Trinity of persons withing the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are Greek philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible."

Research, therefore, proves that even the concept of the Trinity, as taught by Christian religions, did not exist, and could not have existed, during all of Biblical history.

The deduction, by factual research and logical reasoning, is that there is absolutely no evidence or proof that there is a Trinity. The evidence, in fact, proves the opposite -- there is definitely not a Trinity.

The Father is Jehovah, the Creator of the Universe. The Son is Jesus Christ, begotten by the Father. And the Holy Spirit is God's power -- his active force -- not a person or being.

VII. Bible Verses Prove Trinity False
Listed below are over a hundred individual Bible verses which prove conclusively that Jesus Christ was not God, but God's Son.

* Matthew 3:16-17; 8:29; 11:27; 12:18; 14:33; 16:16-17; 17:5; 27:54
* Mark 5:7; 15:39
* Luke 1:32; 1:35; 8:28; 9:35; 10:22
* John 1:13; 1:18; 1:34; 1:49; 3:16; 5:19-23; 5:37; 6:40; 6:69; 8:18; 8:42; 10:15; 10:36; 11:4; 12:49-50; 14:13; 14:23; 14:28; 16:17; 17:1-16; 20:17; 20:31
* Acts 2:22-24; 3:13; 3:26; 9:20
* Romans 1:4; 5:10; 8:29
* 1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28
* 2 Corinthians 1:19
* Galatians 4:4
* Philippians 2:9
* Colossians 1:13
* 1 Thessalonians 1:10
* 1 Timothy 2:5
* Hebrews 1:2; 2:9; 4:14; 5:7-8
* 1 Peter 1:3
* 2 Peter 1:17
* 1 John 1:3; 2:22; 3:23; 4:10; 4:14-15; 5:11-12
* 2 John 1:9
* Revelation 2:18

FIN. Vote Con
Debate Round No. 4
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by InquireTruth 8 years ago
InquireTruth
Haha, I never voted against you on any debates actually. I like how you just argue up and down that my presumption of your character was unwarranted, and then go to make an assumption of your own. I need not familiarize you with the qualities of love, nor do I need to remind you that the way in which you present yourself on the internet, to other people, neighbors, brothers, is a measurable example of your fruits - as it is a deed. And if you fault me for assuming that your character is one of rudeness, impudence, and disrespect, then I would ask you to consider the way in which you present yourself, as it is very misleading.

I could not care less if you were a rude militant atheist with a proclivity to lash out in spits of rage, unleashing disparaging and belittling comments to any who in whosville. But when you say you are a Christian and do not show love to your brother, it bugs me a bit. Because you stand as a representation of what Christianity is to the world. Frankly, it's disheartening.

And if you will kindly notice, I tend to stick to commenting on the religious topics - I would hate for my stalkerly agenda to frighten you.
Posted by PublicForumG-d 8 years ago
PublicForumG-d
and uh, I just realized this; going down the line and voting against my debates is childish and stupid. Grow up.
Posted by PublicForumG-d 8 years ago
PublicForumG-d
1)PFG is the three letters comprising my name.

2)Its stalkerish to go down the line and comment on my debates.

3)Admittedly, I am intolerant of ignorance when it persistently asserts itself as intelligence.

4)Even assuming your premise (that I am a jerk) true, I am not Christ; Romans 3:23

5)Your scripture contradicts your message. //Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God;// Yet you call me a child of G-d, therefore I do what is right (in your eyes)(and mine). rofl

6)I may not be perfect, and I may get sick of persistent ignorant people, but I am not an unkind person, nor an unloving person. And uh, trying to make a value judgment on my personality based off of an internet forum post? Really weird, stalkerish, and incomplete as a whole. Psychiatrists take months of deep mental probing to describe people's personalities, yet you, someone who's never met me, intend to make a value judgment on who I am? Its comical.

ALL this raps up into saying, I do not find myself to be unwarrantedly harsh. I believe that you have difficulty grasping the honesty with which I carry myself, and when I blow by your smoke mirror arguments (and point this out) you get angry. So you turn to name calling. The prose that I type only takes what you'd call a "harsh" turn when you refuse to change your position (or at least stop blindly pushing it) in the face of refuting evidence. You just disagree. But instead of just disagreeing, you tell myself and everyone around us that you do so. And really, noone cares. I doubt you really care that much. In fact, if this silly little website comprised more than a small portion of your daily "cares" I'd be worried for you. So either 1) Stop making bad arguments 2) Stop trying to push said bad arguments when refuted or 3) Just stay outta the convo if you can't stand being honest.
Posted by InquireTruth 8 years ago
InquireTruth
PBG, If you're all about showing respect to God, what's with being a jerk all the time?
"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10.

Where is the love Oh Child of God?
Posted by lukepare 8 years ago
lukepare
Well argued debate, however, Con's scriptural references are far more supported then the vague references used in the trinitarian doctrine. The Bible is clear that God alone is God and he has a Kingdom over which he alone rules. He sent his son to apostlize the earth and rule in his (God's) name. This is a common practise amongst kingdoms who are wishing to expand.Jesus did this and said he would return all Glory to the father in the end as he only does his (the fathers) will and not his own. The Trinitarian Doctrine is one of mans own devise and not of Gods design.
Posted by Feldunost 9 years ago
Feldunost
A close, well-argued debate. However, DFG got nasty in the comments and his view is in fact on shaky ground biblically, so it goes to Renzzy.

Great debate though, on both sides.
Posted by Renzzy 9 years ago
Renzzy
I did NOT whine, I simply stated facts. I never carried an edge in my tone. If you consider a matter-of-fact tone insulting I don't know what to say.

I had no trouble arguing against your arguments, and yes, I am frustrated. You were very friendly in my last debate with you, and you are quite the opposite this time. I simply don't understand.
Posted by PublicForumG-d 9 years ago
PublicForumG-d
@Brian: I've gotten a lot of qs about this. Here's what I said to Yraelz.

Have you ever said, Yes Sir or Yes Ma'am to your mom or dad?

Of course. But you are not mandated to call them that - so why do it?

It is out of love and respect that you do it. Whether it matters to them or not (and I'm sure your mom or dad was happy with the respect shown them) it is still an act to show my respect. I choose to do it, because I choose to show my respect for G-d.

@Renzzy: I don't really know what you're talking about. You DID whine about the websites at the end of your R3. And I disagree - its been you with the harsh edge. I posted arguments that seem to be theologically stumping to you, and since you cannot seem to beat them, you appear to be getting frusterated. I don't know, and frankly I don't care.

@Mormon:

Can you explain to me the concept of the Spirit Prison you guys believe in? What happens there?
Posted by brian_eggleston 9 years ago
brian_eggleston
PublicForumG-d

With reference to your use of the word "G-d" and, indeed, your member ID.

Is the "o" key on your computer broken or do you just think that "God" is a s-dding swear word?!
Posted by Renzzy 9 years ago
Renzzy
It's up to you I guess. I'm not going to turn down a challenge, and it sounds fun.

I really don't think anti-trinitarians have a very defensable position, but I am willing to debate you. Like my profile says, I'm always up for a good theological debate.

Your call :)

Renzzy
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