The Trinity is Biblical, Jesus is God
Debate Rounds (5)
Isa 44:24 tells us that Yahweh made all things, stretched out the heavens alone, spread out the earth by himself; yet Scripture reveals the Father as creator (Isa 64:8), and the Son (Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 8-10), and the Holy Spirit (Ps 104:30; Job 26:13; 33:4) Combine this with the plural pronouns "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:16 and the trinitarian has an airtight case. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not one God with the Father, then God the Father had help and did not create all things alone, by himself, as he said in Isaiah 44:24. If the trinity is true, harmony comes to the texts.
At Isaiah 43:11 Yahweh declares, "I myself am Yahweh and besides me there is no Saviour." (WEB) Scripture tells us palinly that Jesus is the Saviour. (Matt 1:21; Lu 2:11; Acts 4:12; 2 Tim 1:10; Tit 1:4; 2 Pet 1:11, etc) So is Jesus Yahweh himself, or is he another Saviour besides Yahweh? Which is it? If he is Yahweh, then he must be one Yahweh with the Father. For there is only one Yahweh. (Deu 6:4) If he is not Yahweh, then he is another Saviour besides Yahweh, and Yahweh was lying when he claimed to be the only Saviour. Which is it? Acts 4:12 says of Jesus, that "there is no salvation in anyone else." Now, if Jesus is not God, then there can be no salvation in God, for there is no salvation in anyone else but Jesus.
2 Corinthians 12:8-9 "In this behalf I three times entreated the Lord that it might depart from me; and yet he really said to me: "My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness.' Most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast as respects my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may like a tent remain over me." Here Paul prayed to the "Lord" Jesus three times and Jesus answered his prayer by saying: "My... power is being make perfect in weakness." Paul concluded by admitting that he would "rather boast ...that the power of (who?) the Christ may like a tent remain over me." So, here again, we see an example of a Christian in the Bible praying to the Lord Jesus with Jesus responding to the prayer with His "underserved kindness" and "power." (NWT) We are told about Jesus hearing our prayers again in 1 John 5:12-16 and Acts 7:59. This would not be so if Jesus were not God.
The fact that Jesus receives prayer proves he is God. John 14:14 says in the New American Standard Bible: "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." Not only does Jesus encourage believers to pray to Him by saying, "ask Me anything," but He is the One who answers the prayer when He promises, "I will do it." While this Scripture is a strong support of prayer being rendered to Jesus, it is complicated by the fact that some translations omits the "me" in the phrase "ask Me anything" in John 14:14. But the Greek text itself states: "If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do."
The reason that certain Bible versions leave out the "me" is due to a textual variant in the manuscripts of the Greek text of this verse. The Majority text (most dating from around the 9th century) split on this issue with some containing the "me" and others dropping the "me." But in recent years, scholars have uncovered manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament) that date as far back as the second and third centuries. The oldest manuscripts we have available today of this verse in the Gospel of John are Papyrus 66, written in 125 A.D., and Papyrus 75, written sometime between 175-225 A.D. Both of these papyrus fragments contain the "me" in this passage. Not only do the oldest fragments of John that we possess today contain the "me," but two of the oldest ancient complete copies of the entire Bible in Greek, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus written around the 4th century, both agree with the papyrus' renderings of "ask me" in John 14:14.
Since Desiderius Erasmus complied and published the Greek text (Textus Receptus) of the King James Bible version in the 1500's, he did not have access to the older Greek manuscripts that we have today. Thus, the King James Bible version and other Bible versions based upon the Textus Receptus or the Majority text do not contain the "me" in John 14:14. Indeed, John 14:14 is a strong testimony to Jesus' approval of the early Christian practice of directing their prayers to Jesus Christ. Does not prayer only belong to God?
I must at this point mention the Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar. This rule states that when there are 2 nouns that are both singular which describe a person, and these nouns are connected by the word "and," the first noun having the article, the second noun not having the article then they refer to the SAME PERSON. (*Note that the nouns cannot be personal names*) There is absolutely no exception to this rule in all of the Greek New Testament. Having stated this rule I find it necessary to present two verses of scripture that unequivocally qualify Jesus as both God and Savior.
Titus 2:13 - while we wait for the blessed hope"the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, (NIV)
2Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: (NIV)
Notice in both verses the noun "God" (theou) has the article (tou) and is connected to the second noun "Savior" (soteros) which does not have an article, by the word "and" (kai). Thus "God and Savior" both refer to the Person of Jesus. Grammatically this is irrefutable. So not only is Jesus Savior, He is God! So I think I have made a good case that Jesus is definitely God, and since there is only one God, then the Father and the Son must be one God. Now, onto the Holy Spirit.
That the Holy Spirit is God and Lord is clearly stated in the Scriptures. (Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor 3:17) The Holy Spirit has the same attributes of Deity as the Father and the Son:
The Father is eternal (Ps 90:2), and the Son (Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2), and the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14)
The Father is omniscient (1 John 3:20), and the Son (John 16:30; 21:17), and the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 2:10-11)
The Father is omnipresent (1 Kings 8:27; Ps 137:8-18), and the Son (Matt 18:20), and the Holy Spirit. (Ps 137:7)
The Father is omnipotent (Dan 4:35), and the Son (Matt 28:18; John 17:10), and the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 40:12-15)
Trinity: a tripersonal being (one being with three distinct minds)
God: the divine nature, namely, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, all-loving, etc.
God: definition 2: any person who possesses divine nature. [Illustration: a scoop of flour is not the whole bag of flour, just as God the Son is not the entire Trinity, and yet, the scoop of flour is by nature flour, just like the whole bag of flour, and so to, God the Son is still by nature God, just like the entire trinity. He is part of the being that has that nature]
Isaiah 46:9 says there is no one like God, but Jesus is so much like Him that if you see Him you see the Father. (John 14:9) Jesus was worshiped even though worship only belongs to God. (Heb 1:6; Matt 2:11; 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 28:9, 17; John 9:38)
Isaiah 40:3 speaks about preparing the way for the LORD (Yahweh). When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3 we see that Jesus is the LORD who had the way prepared for him by John the Baptist.
In Joel 2:32a it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD (Yahweh) will be saved. This verse is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:21, and by Paul in Romans 10:13. Both apostles are clearly referring to Jesus as the LORD.
In Isaiah 6:1-10 we read about the marvelous vision that Isaiah had revealing the glory of the LORD (Yahweh). John tells us in John 12:40-41 that this vision revealed the glory of Jesus.
In Isaiah 44:6, the LORD (Yahweh) refers to himself as "the First and the Last". In Revelation 1:8 and 17, Jesus similarly refers to himself as "the Alpha and the Omega" and "the First and the Last".
Please, don't be shy; lets debate this.
well my logic tells me that he was a prophet of god, like Adam, Edris, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Mohammad. and prophets are people who are closest to god, and because of that they show godly attributes like healing the blind, reviving the dead, splitting the sea, ... and all of that is power of god flowing through them.
and explain to a person who is not christian, how can you prove trinity? of course with just logic and not use of religious text.
Secondly, you claim about Jesus that "logic tells me that he was a prophet of god, like Adam, Edris, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Mohammad. and prophets are people who are closest to god, and because of that they show godly attributes like healing the blind, reviving the dead, splitting the sea, ... and all of that is power of god flowing through them." Wow. How did logic tell you that Jesus was a prophet who performed miracles like raising the dead if you didn't read it in the Bible? Since you don't want to use religious texts, can you name a single scientific text which says those things about Jesus? Common sense and logical explanation (which you called for) tells me that since the New Testament is the main source of historical information about Jesus available to us, and since that same source seem reliable enough to you for you to use it to gain the knowledge that Jesus was a miracle performing prophet, that this same Bible should also be reliable enough to tell me who he was; if he was God or not.
The Ne w Testament is the oldest, closes documents we have containing any words of Jesus. In it, Jesus claim that he existed with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5), that he is the final judge and is to be honored JUST AS the Father is to be honored (John 5:22-23), which means if you worship the Father you must worship the Son to. Jesus even blesses Thomas for calling him "my God" in John 20:28-29. He claimed that anyone who sees him sees the Father, and told us to pray to him (John 14:9, 14). He even claimed to be the I AM, a sacred name of God (John 8:58; Exodus 3:14) Add to this, these same Gospel record that Jesus was worshipped and called God. (Matt 28:9, 17; John 1:1-3, 14) No mere prophet could do these things.
Now if you believe the myth theory, that Jesus was just a prophet whom his disciples eventually mythologized, you have a problem. The myth theory has two layers - the Jesus who was just a man, and the Jesus who was divine; but there is absolutely no evidence for the first layer. No one has ever found any Gospel account in which Jesus isn't portrayed as being called God or doing the things that only God can do such as read hearts and forgive sins, or receiving worship. The first layer is made entirely of thin air.
The proof that Jesus is God is that his claims were vindicated by his resurrection from the dead, for which we have 4 facts established by the majority of historians of the NT. His honorable burial, his empty tomb, his post-mortem appearances, and the origin of the disciples' belief in his resurrection. Many theories have been tried through the years to explain these four facts, but all have failed, none have a gained a large following among historians. In the absence of any naturalistic explanation of these facts which works, a rational person should believe he was raised from the dead, but that would prove his claims to be God were true. Please see evidence for his resurrection in this link https://www.youtube.com...
As for the Trinity, a particle can be in many places at once, so why can't God be in three places at once as Father, Son and Holy Spirit? https://www.youtube.com...
to question your second paragraph, i can say that since i know god exists and can logically prove it, and looking that the creation, i can prove that he has wisdom, i believe that he should have prepared a way for the people who have fee will, to seek him and fight their true purpose in life. because creating something who serves no purpose, is not something a wise being would do. therefor, i believe that throughout history, there had to be people who were selected and prepared by god to teach people and guide them to the right path. and since not everyone can be swayed with reason alone, those people had to show people things that ordinary people could never do, and that is where miracles come forth.
and about the type of miracles, it had to be something that could impress people the most. and the time of Jesus, was a period of illnesses and blights so healing the ill and reviving the dead could impress more than anything.
just like Moses who lived in an era of witchcraft, therefore performing miracles that shows the difference in power would be the best way to persuade people that he was a messenger of god.
and if just raising from the dead or reviving the dead means someone is divine, take Seven Sleepers who slept for 300 years and then were revived by god, or Uzair who Jewish people believe also to be son of god.
well, if i were to use religious text, i would say that Quran which is not changed after 1400 years claim that Jesus was not son on god. and Muslims believe that he was not crucified but god said to him ""O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."
and well since I'm new to this site, i kinda felt like you were challenging me to this debate, so i posted my answer. if this level of answer does not satisfy you i can forfeit.
God, by definition, at least in this debate, is a supernatural being. Supernatural things don't conform to man's logic but can do things beyond our ability to comprehend. Like the legion of demons inside one man in Luke 8. How did they all fit? And why did they want to go into the swine?
You mention Muhammad, but again, sickness still existed in his day: why didn't God empower him to heal? Using your logic, he should have.
You claim that logic tells you that God exists, but you won't use religious texts. So why wouldn't a logical God want to have his revelation written down so that all can see it, even if they are not opening their hearts to hear his voice? God is not going to force himself on anyone.
It's so amazing you put so much stock in Islam's claim that Jesus didn't die but was raised to God. Well, first century Roman historian Tacitus, and Jewish historian Josephus of that same era, both testify that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, just as the Bible said. So why is there absolutely no corroborating testimony from the first century, or even the first 6 hundred years after Jesus to corroborate the claim of the Quaran that Jesus didn't die?
Here is a full quote Tacitus writing about 100 CE from Annals 15.44. Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 AD:
But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first Made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an Immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of Firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.
Christus is Latin for Christ. It says that he founded Christianity and was killed in Judea just as the Bible says. I can trust the Bible because the evidence supports it, can't say the same for the Quaran. The Bible hasn't been changed. My NIV is well supported by the ancient manuscripts, its still the same.
Writing before 100 CE, Josephus says:
Antiquities 18.3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
So the Quaran can't be the Word of God because history proves it wrong. No serious scholar doubts that Jesus was put to death by crucifixion, so the Quaran was wrong to claim Jesus didn't die and is not God's word because God can't be wrong.
Here is what scholars says:
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically,[f] and they consider the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) to be the best sources for investigating the historical Jesus. Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean, Jewish rabbi who preached his message orally, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate. In the current mainstream view, Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher and the founder of a renewal movement within Judaism, although some prominent scholars argue that he was not apocalyptic. After Jesus' death, his followers believed he was resurrected, and the community they formed eventually became the Christian Church. https://en.wikipedia.org...
So, where is Jesus' body? The fact that none of the enemies of the Christians could produce his body tells me that the empty tomb was real. He was raised, and thus he was vindicated by God, all his claims to divinity. He was God.
in response to your first paragraph i can say: since bible and other divine books are supposed to be a guideline for people to follow, it has to make sense and be logical to the people. otherwise what's the point of making a guideline that no one can understand and relate to?
as for the second paragraph, you argue that Supernatural things don't conform to man's logic but can do things beyond our ability to comprehend. well didn't god create logic in the first place? didn't he give it to men? would god create something that even he doesn't care about? can't i just say to him in the day of judgement, oh god, you have created me and have given me intelligence and wisdom, yet you sent a book to me that does not make any sense, and since i did not saw jesus and could not prove that he existed without using that book, i decided that it was all man made?
for the third, you say: why didn't God empower him to heal? not only Muhammad, but all of the Imams could heal and revive. they are healing people even after their death. haven't you heard about people who are healed in the shrine of Imam Hussein and Abbas ibn Ali who wasn't even Imam but son of Imam? even people who aren't Islam come to their shrines and ask for help.
"You claim that logic tells you that God exists, but you won't use religious texts. So why wouldn't a logical God want to have his revelation written down so that all can see it, even if they are not opening their hearts to hear his voice? "
well, since you are not muslim, what is the point of using text that you don't care about? i have to first be able to prove the things i say with reason and logic, then after acceptance, there are a lot of text for further guidance.
It's so amazing you put so much stock in Islam's claim that Jesus didn't die but was raised to God...
there are a couple of reasons for it. 1- we have a very detailed study of all historians of Islam and those who cited Hadith called "Rejal which means men" and in Islam, no hadith or history that is only mentioned by one historian, is not accepted. 2 - history of Islam is way more recent than history of Christianity, and is mentioned by a lot of more historians and people. 3- i know that i am not god, so i can't take god as my role model. because if god where to ask me in the day of judgement, why didn't you follow his example, i could easily say, he was a god, and i am a man, and there is no way that i could become god. why didn't you send an infallible man go guide us? and god would have no answer to that.
also, if we are to use religious text i could say:
"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not"
and don't you have verses saying something like this (I'm translating it from Persian so the words might not match)
god has ordered his angels to protect him. mathew 6:4
and also a text saying that "he who is hanged (crucified?) is damned? Book of Deuteronomy 23:21
or this. "he was damned for us" Epistle to the Galatians 13:3
if he is god, how is he damned, and by whom?
and if god ordered angels to protect him, how was he crucified?
again, translations might vary.
you said: "So the Quran can't be the Word of God because history proves it wrong."
what history are we talking about here? don't just say something and expect us to take it as proven!
as i mentioned, history cited by numerous historians proves that Quran was word of god. and also it invites all people to try to bring a book similar to it. which after this long time no one has managed to do.
and one last thing. from what i hear, bible that you have is not a book that is written or cited or gathered by Jesus himself?
and as a Muslim i truly accept that god gave his prophet jesus a book so that people could follow, in Quran it's named Enjil (not sure whether it's written that was though). i don't accept the bible that you have right now though that's written by other fallible people who could just make stuff up about it.
and when i used bible, i made this point that there are a lot of contradictions is your bible as well that prove jesus wasn't god.
and i ask you, why do you worship god in the first place? is it to satisfy your ego, or is it to be able to go to heaven? and if god were to send another prophet after jesus and were to say to you to follow him, would you follow or would you not?
I could add that most professional historians today agree that Jesus died during the reign of Pontius Pilate just as the Bible says.
"Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically,[f] and they consider the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) to be the best sources for investigating the historical Jesus. Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean, Jewish rabbi who preached his message orally, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate. In the current mainstream view, Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher and the founder of a renewal movement within Judaism, although some prominent scholars argue that he was not apocalyptic. After Jesus' death, his followers believed he was resurrected, and the community they formed eventually became the Christian Church.[26" https://en.wikipedia.org...
This shows that what the Bible says about Jesus' crucifixion is a historical fact, which contradicts the Quaran's claim that Jesus didn't die. If only one lie is in the Quaran, then it isn't the word of God. Thus, I have shown that the Quaran isn't God's word, do please stop comparing your book to the Bible. Muhammad split the moon? Nonsense. Proof? None!
You believe Jesus went to heaven. All the Gospels say he did. So he must still be alive after his resurrection. This vindicates his claims to be the I AM, the Final Judge of the World, the Good Shepherd, the one who hears our Prayers, to be God!
well i ask you this: in bible you believe that no man is infallible, and even prophets like Abraham and David have committed sins. and you also believe that bible was not gathered by Jesus during his life and fallible people gathered it after his death. also, the main version of bible which should be in Arabic or Hebrew is not present at the moment. and also, there is a huge likeness between Jesus and Horus or god of wine. and also, you believe in a Jewish person who claimed he has seen Christ (in the time of persecution of Christians by Jews) and Jesus has asked him to make some changes in the religion. and those changes were changes that he hadn't done during his life. that guy had actually killed a christian. those changes were these : 1 - Jesus is God. 2- no need for circumcision. 3. drinking is not taboo in the religion ...
these things makes be believe that Jesus is god in the religion of Paul (Poles), not in the religion of Jesus. (you can find historians who believe in this too). and as for the death of Jesus and his shouting that he's not Jesus while being crucified, we believe that the person who tried to betray Jesus and sell him out to Jews (?) was mistakenly crucified at the cross, at that is also a miracle of Jesus, because god made them see his as Jesus or maybe they looked familiar to begin with and there is a less miraculous explanation.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- "
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