The Trinity is Imaginary
Debate Rounds (5)
It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)
Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: "And your God is One God: there is no God but He." (The Quran 2:163)
Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and outside the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons " the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit " in one divine being.
If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:
"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)
Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father, plus one person, God the Son, plus one person, God the Holy Ghost, equals one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?
It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.
How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?
Trinity in the Bible
References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at best.
In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and preach to all nations. While this "Great Commission" does make mention of the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text " that is, not the actual words of Jesus " as can be seen by two factors:
1) baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and"
2) the "Great Commission" was found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost " see Mark 16:15
The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of 1 John 5:7. Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase " there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical text, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.
It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.
The Doctrine Takes Shape
While Paul of Tarsus, the man who could rightfully be considered the true founder of Christianity, did formulate many of its doctrines, that of the Trinity was not among them. He did, however, lay the groundwork for such when he put forth the idea of Jesus being a "divine Son". After all, a Son does need a Father, and what about a vehicle for God's revelations to man? In essence, Paul named the principal players, but it was the later Church people who put the matter together.
Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the third-century Church in Carthage, was the first to use the word "Trinity" when he put forth the theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father
A Formal Doctrine Is Drawn Up
When controversy over the matter of the Trinity blew up in 318 between two church men from Alexandria " Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his bishop " Emperor Constantine stepped into the fray.
Although Christian dogma was a complete mystery to him, he did realize that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom. When negotiation failed to settle the dispute, Constantine called for the first ecumenical council in Church history in order to settle the matter once and for all.
Six weeks after the 300 bishops first gathered at Nicea in 325, the doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out. The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Church Puts Its Foot Down
The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward for anyone who didn't hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.
It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion.
Brutal punishments and even death did not stop the controversy over the doctrine of the Trinity, however, and the said controversy continues even today.
The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" " yet the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of confusion ..."
The Unitarian denomination of Christianity has kept alive the teachings of Arius in saying that God is one; they do not believe in the Trinity. As a result, mainstream Christians abhor them, and the National Council of Churches has refused their admittance. In Unitarianism, the hope is kept alive that Christians will someday return to the preachings of Jesus: "... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." (Luke 4:8)
Islam and the Matter of the Trinity
While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam:
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God" (Quran 5:73)
It is worth noting that the Arabic language Bible uses the name "Allah" as the name of God.
Suzanne Haneef, in her book What Everyone Should Know About Islam and Muslims (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when she says,"
"But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to believe in." (pp.183-184)
Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being three separate entities " the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical
Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity " God being Three-in-One " is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.
This is a charge not taken lightly by Christians, however. They, in turn, accuse the Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur'an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verses in the Qur'an most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by Quran as a "member" of the Trinity, is simply not true.
While Quran does condemn both trinitarianism (Quran 4:171; 5:73) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur'an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur'an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.
In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Qur'an, God's Final Revelation to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a number of eloquent passages,
"... your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner." (Quran 18:110)
"Don't make as equal with God, another deity, lest you be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Quran 17:39)
Because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is echoed throughout ALL His Revealed Scriptures,
"I am your Lord; therefore, worship Me and no other" (Quran 21:92)
Based on my research following this conversation: today I will be debating that The Trinity is NOT Imaginary.
First of All, Let's start our by looking at the Meaning of the Trinity.
Definition of Trinity: the Christian Godhead as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
It is the Christian doctrine that there is only one God and not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I"ll be looking at this in three points: That the trinity is: Biblical- Relational- Mysterious
John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This verse clearly shows the relationship between the trinity.
Ephesians 1:20- "which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,"
This verse shows that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, clearly giving evidence for the trinity.
Genesis 1:29- Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness
This verse clearly shows a personal plural form. He did not say let me make in my image, but he said in "OUR" Image. It's a simple grammar observation. Our is more than one.
Sometimes people will ask: "Why did God create the world? Was he lonely?" The doctrine of the trinity shows that God was not lonely before creation.
C. S. Lewis once said- "All sorts of people are fond of repeating the Christian statement that "God is love." But they seem not to notice that the words "God is love" have no real meaning unless God contains at least two persons. Love is something that one person has for another person. If God was a single person, then before the world was made, He was not love."
He was loving and relation before he created us in the trinity. For us- this means that we can have an relationship with God- because the trinity is relational. As we were talking about this- I started to think- does the trinity really matter? Why do I care if there"s a clear distinctions between the three persons of God? But as I looked closer into the subject- I can see that it really does matter- because it shows that we can have an relationship with God.
But if you look deeper into this subject- it even signifies that we should have relationships with others. Do you see the image of God in a man? In an woman? No- you see the image of God in man and woman together. If there was no trinity- we would have no internal love- no relationships. Paul quotes Genesis 2:24 in Ephesians 5:32- "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery"
This shows that the Image of God is displayed in more than 1 person, both male and female, which represents the trinity- three in 1.
This shows us that actual relationships are more important than everything else- relationship, fame, or entertainment. This is the significance of the trinity. That we can have a relationship with God- and know that we can have relationships with others because of the trinity.
When I was researching this and really struggling with it: I said to my dad: "This is really hard for me- because I feel like I can"t completely understand it!" My dad said: "Exactly! We can"t fully understand it!"
I believe that my cousins are trying to explain and understand the trinity.
Michael Houdman- "Rather than embrace the triune nature of God as revealed in Scripture, they create for themselves a God they can "understand" and in doing so end up with another gospel and a heretical concept of God."
However- we will never know all the specifics or workings of God.
An Anonymous quote- "The first thing the doctrine of the trinity says to us is that there are some things in life too big for us to get into our little skulls"
Paul- 1 Corinthians 13:12- "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."
It"s like if you park you car outside- and in the morning sometimes you can"t see clearly because of the dew or fog on the windshield. We get an dim outline- but if we think too hard about it we really can"t comprehend it.
Today In this round I have shown how the trinity is: Biblical- Relational- Mysterious.
Thomas Watson- "This is a divine riddle, where one makes three, and three make one. Our narrow thoughts can no more comprehend the Trinity in Unity, than a nut-shell will hold all the water in the sea."
The trinity shows us that relationships are important- and it enables us to have relationship with others. It teaches us to be humble before God- acknowledging that we will not understand everything- because he truly is a mighty God- beyond our comprehension.
I'm sorry, but what you said is nonsense to me. You said what the meaning of Trinity is. But can this be explained or understood absolutely logically? The Bible tells us nothing about this
The Christians are polytheist. They believe in the Trinity of the Godhead. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. They believe that each of them have a special quality and that together they constitute the Godhead.
Christians try to prove the concept of the "Original Sin", "Trinity" and also the concept of the "Ransom Sacrifice" from the Bible. In other words, you have to have faith in the Bible even before you become a Christian.
Can I ask you about logical proof behind the concept of the Trinity without referring to the Bible. One does not need to go through the Bible to prove the existence of God. One does not need to go through the Bible to believe in the Day of Judgement and life after death. One does not need to go through the Bible to understand the Justice of God, etc. But talk about Trinity, Original Sin and Ransom Sacrifice and all of sudden they become UNIQUE and beyond our understanding. If these are not dogmas and blind beliefs ,what else are they?
First, you quoted a few verses of the Bible. I may be ignorant, but I can't understand the relationship between those verses and Trinity.
1) You wrote a verse about the Word of God. I don't know how it shows the Trinity! And I know I shouldn't compare the Bible and the Qur'an. But I have to do it this time.
God says in Quran:" O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of God and His WORD which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at d command]" from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. And don't say, "Trinity"; desist! it is better for you. Indeed, God is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son." (4:171)
The above verse shows that Jesus is the Word of God, but what does "the Word" means? There is an disagreement among the scholars:
a) some say the Word means "the Creature". So Jesus is the Word of God. It means that Jesus is created by God. For example, when we speak, our words are being created (i.e. uttered) by us. So the word means someone or something that is created.
b) the rest say that the Word means "the sign". Everything related to Jesus was a miracle and sign from God. So Jesus is the Word of God. Because he is the sign of the Almighty.
I want to talk about the Three Witnesses. Apostle John in his first Epistle, chapter 5 and verse 7 wrote: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one."
One may ask:" Is this not a fair testimony to acknowledge the 'Doctrine of Trinity'?"
The text quoted above does appear in the older editions of the Kings James Version, but has been omitted in the most recent edition of the Revised Version. It does not appear in the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible and the Phillips Modern English Bible because the above quoted text does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts. Renowned historian Edward Gibbon calls the addition a "Pious Fraud" in his famous history book 'Decline and Fall of Roman Empire'. Peakes commentary on the subject reads; "The famous interpolation after "three witnesses" is not printed even in RSV, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus.
Notwithstanding the above rejections, the verse that follows the quoted text reads in KJV; "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8). Are these three witnesses "co-equal"? Can blood be substituted with water? Can water be regarded as the same in any respect with the Spirit? Just as the spirit, the blood and the water are three separate entities, so are the first three witnesses, namely; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
2) You also claimed that Jesus was seated at the right hand of God. But I want to say something else:
Jesus said: "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9)
One may ask:"Does this not prove that Jesus Christ and his Father were one and the same?
One day to prove a point and settle an argument, Jesus picked up a child and said to his disciples; "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me receives Him who sent me;" (Luke 9:48). Does this make the child Messiah? Jesus said; "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." (John 17:3). The call of sincerity demands that if believing in the Truth is the honest intention then one could only pass an ethical judgment after reflecting upon other relevant texts.
Jesus said; "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16). During his ministry, Jesus repeatedly said he was sent by his Father. So he is not the same as God.
3) You also talked about the creation of man in the amage of God.
In the Book of Genesis 1:26, we read; "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."; does not the use of terms "Us" and "Our" prove that the God which created man was not a singular entity, furthermore, does it not support the Johnannine concept (John 1:3); all things came into being through Jesus?
Below is an extract from a commentary for the above verse, written by the editors of King James Version (The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, 6th edition): "The Hebrew word for God is 'Elohim' (430), a plural noun. In Genesis 1:1, it is used in grammatical agreement with a singular verb 'bara' (1254), created. When plural pronouns are used, "Let us make man in our image after our likeness," does it denote a plural of number or the concept of excellence or majesty which may be indicated in such a way in Hebrew? Could God be speaking to angels, the earth, or nature thus denoting Himself in relation to one of these? Or is this a germinal hint of a distinction in the divine personality? One cannot be certain." The response to the commentators remark; "One cannot be certain", lies not very far, but in the next verse (Genesis 1:27), which reads; "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." This statement tells us that the actual act of creation when performed, was performed by "Him" and in "His" image and not by "Us" in "Our" image. Please also read verse 1:31.
As a closing conclusive argument, here is a statement of truth from Jesus himself; "And he (Jesus) answered and said unto them, 'Have you not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female." (Matthew 19:4). This statement by Jesus also negates the so called Johnannine concept put forward by you (NOT by apostle John); "all things came into being through Jesus."
Once again, I should quote the Quran:" And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud." (15:26)
In above verse, God uses a plural noun. But it doesn't prove that God is more than one. It only shows the attributes of God. It shows the Superiority of God. It proves that God is the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might and the Compeller.
It is believed that God created Adam after his own image. What was common between God and Adam? One wonders what does this mean. Adam sinned. He was mortal. What kind of resemblance did Adam have with God?
4) You claim God is not one person. Do you agree that you are a polytheist? God is Love, right. How can it prove that God is more than one? For example, when I talk to my husband I say:"You are my love!" Can it prove I am talking to two persons?! No! God is Love. He is our True Love. You said:" Love is something that one person has for another person."
So "God is Love" is the feeling which we have for God. Or the love which God has for his servants. It is so simple!
5) You claim Trinity shows us that we should have a relationship with God/others. But it was completely nonsense. When I read your argument, I only understood that the Trinity shows us how to be a polytheist!
I have no ide what the Trinity shows. So I talk about Jesus. Can he show us how to have relationship with others? Is he an ideal example to follow
But he is not an ideal example for mankind to follow because his life was incomplete. HOW?
a) Jesus never got married. If we were to follow his example, mankind would become extinct.
b) He had a mother but no father. One can understand the relationship between a mother and a son from his life, but not between a father and a son.
c) He is not an ideal example for married couple.
d) He had no children and therefore the role of fatherhood was missing.
6) Your last sentences were nonsense too! They were just some excuses for Christians when they can't prove something.
Do you have more evidence? Please defend the Bible and your beliefs logically. I don't accept something blindly.
Cattycat99 forfeited this round.
Let's read what Quran has to say about Trinity:
1. "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of God and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, God is but One. Exalted is He above having a son." (Quran 4:171)
2. "And beware the Day (of Judgement) when God will say,"O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship God, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise." (Quran 5:115-118)
3. "They have certainly disbelieved who say that God is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent God at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" (Quran 5:17)
4. "Indeed, the example of Jesus to God is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was." (3:59)
5. "The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of God "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of God." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May God destroy them; how are they deluded?" (Quran 9:30)
Trinity Is Imaginary
The excess and exaggeration on the part of religious leaders and saints has always been a cause of deviation from the truth; and losing the right way to God. On this account, Islam strictly warns and forbids such exaggerations, because people's excesses in their religion lead them to blasphemy.
Jews show a lot of vain zeal and arrogance, mingled with vanity, in the direction of racialism, exclusiveness, and their saying that they are the elects of God; and that the fire of Hell will burn them not but for a few days, and such false and unreasonable claims. On the other hand, we see the Christians having raised the prophet Jesus to a deity, and in a rank of equality with God! And surely this is because they know not who the God is! They venerate Mary almost to idolatry. They attribute a physical son to God, and have falsely forged their trinity, which is the union of three hypostases (FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST) in one Godhead so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality!
This means that in a class room of mathematics, a Christian school boy should learn and believe that number one, three times added or multiplied by three (1+1+1=3 or 1"3=3) equals three.
But in the class-room of religion, number one, three times equals one!, which is of course contrary to all reasons.
After all if the Christian believers reject that by reasoning, he is doomed to hell for ever! In this verse the attributes of Jesus Christ, as they are in reality, have been mentioned as follows:
1. That he was indeed the son of a woman called Mary.
Just like any other human being, he lived as a fetus in his mother's womb. She gave birth to him and he was subject to development, and dependant on the existing natural laws. So, how can such a created man be considered as an everlasting God, who is unlimited in power, ability and authority?!
2. That Jesus Christ was messenger of God, a position which is far from the position of Godhead.
3. That Jesus Christ was the word of God that was created like any word and induced in Mary.
4. That Jesus Christ was a spirit created by God.
This expressive title is given to Adam and all mankind for having a divine soul, and immaterial spirit that makes the main and the basic part of man's existence.
Trinity Is The Worst Of All The Perversions In Christianity.
Among the many perversions by which Christianity has been afflicted, trinity is the worst of all.
It is a forged Christian doctrine that might have been taken from the Indian trinity consisting of their three god's namely BERHIMA - FISHNU - SIFA. The Christian version of trinity is the one substance of Godhead in which there are three persons equal in status; Father, Son, and Holy spirit.
This doctrine has been forged in the 4the century A.D.,and it cannot be deduced and derived, ever by reasoning from the present new testament that is tampered with indeed!
In this new testament which has been adopted as the Christian Holy Book, the three persons of Godhead are mentioned together in Baptismal injunction of Matthew 28:19 saying:
"Go then to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: Baptize them in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.'
In this Baptismal injunction, there is not the least evidence that the said three persons are gods, and one Godhead in one substance or essence.
The second case in which the three persons are brought in together is in the Pauline benediction of two CORINTHIANS, 13:14, which is in fact an appendix to the four main gospels:-
"The grace of the lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy spirit be with you all.'
Worthy of note here, that in this benediction, the phrase ``LOVE OF GOD' has replaced the father.
Here in this benediction too, there is not the least amount of clearness to give us a reason for believing the Trinity as it is defined by the priesthood.
So the trinity did never form any part of the Apostle's preaching. Later on, when the Christianity was confronted with many riddles and puzzles, to solve, and had to answer many questions, on account of their forgeries of the three and one Godhead; and had no reasonable explanation for their paradox of trinity, they began to describe it philosophically, saying:'"Trinity does not describe God as He is in Himself.'
But rather three distinct ways on which He is revealed to us! God's substance is limitless and accepts no duality, no trinity, and no plurality. If we believe in three hypostases, then all of them will have their limiting lines and bounds in order to keep their distinctions. Their limiting bounds, or entities too, must be eternal and everlasting as the god's are, and eventually we see or we come to know the Godhead is a composition of parts, or a compound of elements! And of course every compound is dependant on its elements, and every composition is in need of its smaller parts. Therefore, limiting and confining the infinite essence, and the absolutes substance of Godhead to a limited pot, such as the body of a man (Jesus), or a woman (Mary), is indeed ridiculous, and against all reasons and is not worthy of serious consideration.
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