The Instigator
Bible
Pro (for)
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The Contender
radz
Con (against)
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The Trinity is Not a Bible Teaching

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/16/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,289 times Debate No: 76626
Debate Rounds (5)
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Bible

Pro

Trinity - The doctrine that there are three divine persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit), each said to be eternal, almighty, none greater than the other. Each is said to be God and, yet, together they are one God.

My position is that the Trinity doctrine is NOT a Bible teaching. Round one is acceptance only.
radz

Con

Con accepts the debate challenge of Pro.
Debate Round No. 1
Bible

Pro

Thank you for accepting, Con.

Does the Bible teach the "Holy Spirit" is a person?

Some Bible verses referring to the holy spirit seem to indicate personality. In the Bible, the holy spirit is referred to as a "helper" that "teaches," "bears witness," "speaks," and "hears" (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13). Other texts, however, say that people were "filled" with holy spirit, that some were "baptized" with it or "annointed" with it, and that the holy spirit is something which is distributed acording to the will of God (Luke 1:41; Matthew 3:11; Acts 10:38; Hebrews 2:4).


To understand what the Bible REALLY teaches, all verses must be considered. The reasonable conclusion is, therefore, that the first verses cited use figurative language personifying God's holy spirit, or his active force, as wisdom, sin, and death are also personified in the Bible.

The Bible tells us the personal names of the Father and the Son: Jehovah and Jesus correspondingly. On the other hand, nowhere in the Holy Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy Spirit. Furthermore, Acts 7:55, 56 tells us of a vision of heaven given to Stephen in which he saw "Jesus standing at God's right hand." But he did not mention seeing the "Holy Spirit."

Here is a quote from the New Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575)

Does the Bible teach all said to be part of the Trinity are eternal, none having a beginning?

Colossians 1:15, 16 -
"He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth."

Trinitarians believe that "first-born" here means most excellent, or most distinguished; so Jesus Christ would be understood to be the most excellent or distinguished in comparison to those created rather than part of the creation. If this is the case, why aren't the Father and the "Holy Spirit" also said to be the firstborn of all creation? This expression is only applied to the Son.

Before Colossians 1:15, the words "the firstborn of" are in the Bible some 30 times. Each time that this expresion is applied to a living creature, the firstborn is part of the group: “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel, “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is of Pharaoh’s family, “the firstborn of beast” is, itself, an animal, etc. Why give a different meaning to "firstborn" as used in Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or a belief you already hold and seek proof of?

We once again see that Jesus is the first creation of God in the book of Revelation 3:14 where the Amen, or Jesus, is called, "the beginning of God's creation."

Does the Bible teach all said to be part of the Trinity are almighty, none greater than the other?

In Matthew 20:20-23 when the mother of Zebedee said to Jesus, "Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." Jesus replied, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." Does this not show that the Son is not equal to the Father, that the Father has reserved some rights for himself?

Matthew 12:31, 32 says that blasphemy against the Son will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven. If the holy spirit was a person and God, this would clearly contradict the trinity. It would mean that the Holy Spirit, in some way, is greater than the Son. Instead, what this shows is that the Father, to whom the spirit belons, is greater than the Son.


1 Corinthians 11:3 says that, "the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God". Here we learn Jesus Christ is not God, that God is of a superior rank to Jesus Christ. And note that this was written some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. The truth in this verse applied to the relationship between God and Jesus Christ in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 - "'God has put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet.’ But when it says, ‘All things are put in subjection under him,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.”

The Hebrew and Greek words for "Almighty" are Shad·daiE7; and Pan·to·kraE7;tor correspondingly. Both words are applied to Jehovah numerous times, but never applied to the Son or the holy spirit.

Conclusion

Those who cling to the trinity dogma are in a dangerous position. The evidence is indisputable. The trinity is not found in the Bible, nor is it in harmony with what the Bible REALLY teaches. It is a gross misrepresentation of the true God.

Thank you. I eagerly await Con's response.



radz

Con

You're welcome, Pro.

What does the Bible say about the Holy Spirit?

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is a person.

The Holy Spirit loves ( Romans 15:30)
The Holy Spirit speaks (Acts 13:2)
The Holy Spirit knows God's thoughts (1 Corinthians 2:11).
The Holy Spirit teaches (John 14:26)
The Holy Spirit decides (1 Corinthians 12:11)

Why does the Holy Spirit have these personal qualities?

The reason is that the Holy Spirit has a "mind."

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." ( Romans 8:27 KJV).

If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal power (energy), then, why he...

... can be blasphemed (Matthew 12:31).Blaspheme energy?
... can be lied to (Acts 5:3).Lie to energy?
... can be grieved ( Ephesians 4:30).Grieve energy?

Jesus was aware that the Holy Spirit was equally a person with Him (another Paraclete). ~ John 14:16 (1 John 2:1)

The Spirit of Jehovah is called the God of Israel in 2 Samuel 23:2-3

The Holy Spirit is contrasted with evil spirits - Mark 3:22-23; Matthew 12:32; 1 Timothy 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4. If "unholy or evil spirits" are persons, then the Holy Spirit is a person.

Pro said: "the holy spirit is something which is distributed acording to the will of God."

Response of Con:

Yes. God gives the Spirit. The Son himself was given as well ( John 3:16).

1 Corinthians 12:11 proves the personality of the Holy Spirit:

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11).

The language of "filling" can be used to persons:

"they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" Acts 2:4

"Be filled with the Spirit" Eph. 5:18

"that He [Christ] might fill all things." Eph. 4:10

that you may be filled with all the fullness of God Eph 3:19
Here is a quote from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia [1]:

"Many other texts declare quite as clearly that the Holy Ghost is a Person, a Person distinct from the Father and the Son, and yet One God with Them. It is in His name, as in the name of the Father and of the Son, that baptism is to be given (Matthew 28:19)."

SUMMARY

The Holy Spirit is not power (energy).The Holy Spirit is outright said to have a mind which energy does not (Romans 8:27).This is a clear biblical evidence that the Holy Spirit is a person and not something that is personified.This is what the Bible REALLY teaches.

The Firstborn Of Every Creature

A human father had a beginning of existence.
His human son had a beginning of existence as well.
Why is this so? The reason is that the human father begat his human son.
The human father begat his human son to have his nature.
The father is fully human and his begotten son is fully human as well.
An offspring inherits traits from the parent.
This is what science calls “heredity.”

God has no beginning of existence (Psalm 90:2). He always is ( Exodus 3:14).He begat his Son (Psalm 110:3 LXX, John 1:18).This means that he has a fellow who is con-substantial (of same nature) with Him ( John 10:28-30).

He who begets is eternal that is why he who is begotten is eternal.

Proverbs 8:22 (LXX)

"The Lord created me as the first of his works, before his works of old."

This text predated the New Testament writings; it says that God’s attribute of wisdom is created prior to the creation of all things.

Logic dictates that God cannot be a God who is not wise prior to the existence of wisdom. Rather, wisdom must be an eternal attribute of an eternal God. How could wisdom precede the existence of all creation if it is said that it is "created"? The context of the text answers this.

The context of Proverbs 8:22 is talking about what the Latin Church fathers call “creation ad intra” (produced from one’s being i.e. begetting) as opposed to “creation ex nihilo” (produced out from nothing). This means that there is not one meaning to create .Even in us humans, we know that to begat is to create albeit in the context of "heredity".

One of the creation ad intra examples is “begetting” (to make someone have one’s nature).An example of this is a human father who begot a human offspring.A human person from a human person.

This is the kind of creation that is being talked about in Proverbs 8:22.The immediate contexts show this:

Proverbs 8 (Septuagint)

Verse 22 The Lord created me (Greek: KTISIS)

Verse 25 He begets me (Greek: GENNAO)

One example of creation ex nihilo is the creation of the flora (plant life) on the third day ( Genesis 1:13).God created the "flora" (plant life) by his speech ex nihilo (Genesis 1:11-12;Hebrews 11:3).God caused flora that is non-existent to become existent.

The Diaspora Jews knew very well the Wisdom Theology of the inspired Scriptures.In Sirach 24:9 [an inter-testamental writing), God’s wisdom is said to be “created before all ages.”

This coheres with the apostolic teaching as found in the New Testament Scriptures:

Colossians 1:15 (1599 Geneva Bible)

He is the image of the invisible God, the first begotten of every creature.

This fits the context. The reason is that everything was created in, by and for the Son that is why he is called the first begotten prior to "all creation".The Son was not created ex nihilo! The Son is begotten from God!The Son is the "only begotten" from God ( John 1:18, 3:16). Jesus is a divine person (the Son) from a divine person (the Father).This is what the early church believed as well:

"If … it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that he is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence, for from the beginning God, who is the eternal mind, had the Logos in himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos."

Plea for the Christians ( A.D. 177) ~ Athenagoras

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, very God from very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

Nicene Creed ( A.D. 325)

Here is a quote from C.S. Lewis [2]:

We don't use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something o the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set – or he may make something more like himself than a wireless set: say, a statue. If he is clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like man indeed. But, of course, it is not a ream man; it only looks like one. It cannot breathe or think. It is not alive.

Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Son's of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God.”

Ontological Equality and Functional Subordination

The Bible teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the same nature but not the same function.

Nature is something that is inherently belongs to someone.In other words, it is the innate ability.

Function is something someone does.In other words, it is the use of the innate ability.

Example: Joseph is governor of Egypt while Pharaoh is the supreme leader of Egypt -- even Joseph is under his rule and authority ( functional subordination) even though both of them are equally 100% humans ( ontological equality).

Jesus was aware that he was the same, identical and equal with God in terms of ontology (nature). ~ John 5:17-8, 10:28-30

Jesus was also aware that he was subordinate to God in terms of authority (function). ~ 1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:16,27 ;John 14:28 In fact, there are lots of bible verses that shows that Jesus receives from the Father ( e.g. John 5:26, Matthew 28:19).

The Holy Spirit is subordinate to Jesus. "He (the Holy Spirit)will glorify me (the Son)." ~ John 16:14

On the Omnipotence of Christ
The Bible is clear that Jesus is omnipotent ( having "all power").

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and
in earth. Matthew 28:18


far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked,
not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Ephesians 1:21


SUMMARY

Did Jesus know a “biblical trinity”?
Christ was aware that there exists a “biblical trinity.” Jesus himself said that baptism should be done:

“in the name of
the Father
and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit” ~ Matthew 28:19
Singular name and plurality of persons

The Scripture is clear that the male and female have the same name:

Genesis 5:2
MALE AND FEMALE created he them; and blessed them, and called THEIR NAME ADAM, in the day when they were created.
Singular name and plurality of persons

We should call the male and female who have the same name collectively as ‘two humans’ because
their human nature (human genome) consists of parts but we shouldn’t call the three persons
who have the same name collectively as ‘three gods’ because their one divine nature is spiritual (John 4:24) and hence, indivisible.

Debate Round No. 2
Bible

Pro

Thank you for your response, Con!

What does the Bible REALLY say about the holy spirit?

It is true that the Bible personifies God's holy spirit, or active force, as it personifies wisdom, sin, and death. The Bible, however, also makes references to the holy spirit which definitely do not fit a person, nor are they applied to the Father or the Son. For example, nowhere in the Bible do you read about people being filled with, baptized with, or anointed with the Father or the Son.

What is blasphemy against the holy spirit?

The Jewish religious leaders of the first century saw God's holy spirit at work in Jesus as he performed miracles that honored Jehovah. They, however, attributed this power to Satan the Devil, thus, sinfully blaspheming against the spirit. The holy spirit has God as its source. Those speaking against the holy spirit are, therefore, speaking against Jehovah. Those who oppose the operation of God's holy spirit have no forgiveness (Mark 3:20-29).

What does it mean to lie to the holy spirit?

An.a.ni'as and his wife Sap.phi'ra sold some property and, secretly, kept some of the money pretending to have given it all to the apostles. By lying to the apostles to whom God had given his spirit, they were not merely lying to men, but to the spirit thinking that it would not inform them of their hypocrisy. Thus, they lied not to men, but to God, to whom the spirit belonged.

What does it mean to grieve the holy spirit?

In Ephesians 4 the aposlte Paul talked about avoiding tendencies like being dishonest, sustaining wrathfulness, being lazy, and unsuitable speech. If we have put on the "new personality", but drift back to practicing such things, what would we be doing? Going against the spirit-inspired advice of the Bible and, thus, grieving the holy spirit.

Is the spirit of Jehovah called the God of Israel in the Bible?

No. In 2 Samuel 23:2, 3 David was saying that he spoke from Jehovah, the God of Israel, as he was moved by holy spirit. (2 Peter 1:21).

Con said: "The Holy Spirit is contrasted with evil spirits," but then mentions irrelevant Bible verses like Mark 3:22-23 which talks about the scribes who said Jesus expelled demons by means of the ruler of the demons, Satan, to which Jesus replies, "How can Satan expel Satan?" I don't see where this verse or the others verses you mentioned are contrasting the holy spirit with the unholy or evil spirits.

Con tries to explain that God distributes the holy spirit by saying that the Son himself was given as well, according to John 3:16. However, Hebrews 2:4 does not say that God merely gives holy spirit, but he distributes (mer-is-mos') it according to His will. If the holy spirit is a person, why is "He" distributed? And why isn't it said in the Bible that the Father and the Son are distributed as well according to the will of God? A person can be sent, like Jesus, but a person is not distributed.

Con tries to explain that people are filled with the holy spirit by saying that the language of "filling" can be used to persons, and this is true in some cases. For example, the wedding in Matthew 22:10 is said to have been "filled" with guests. However, it is clear that the holy spirit is not a person when people are "filled" with it, "baptized" with it, and "anointed" with it. Again, nowhere in the Bible do you read about people being filled with, baptized with, or anointed with the Father or the Son. These references to the holy spirit definitely do not fit a person.


Does Matthew 28:19 prove the trinity?


It is true that the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are all mentioned in this verse. Nevertheles, nothing is said about their being equal. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus was commisioning his Jewish followers to teach and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit. So, what did the Jews believe as a nation?


Deuteronomy 6:4 says: “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,” not three in one. Israel had been freed from Egypt where Osiris, Isis, and Horus, one of their triads of gods, were worshipped. Therefore, Israel was commanded to worship only one God.


Being born as a Jew, Jesus followed this same command. When tempted by the Satan, he said: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service." Here we learn at least two things. First, Satan was trying to get Jesus to worship someone other than Jehovah, something that would have been ridiculous if he was part of the same God. Secondly, Jesus made it clear there was only one person who should be worshipped when he said "him alone" rather than "us," which he would have said if he was part of a trinity.


Those who come to an accurate knowledge of God and want to serve him are baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” (Matthew 28:19). They understand and accept the authority of Jehovah, Jesus' role in Jehovah's purpose, and the function of God's holy spirit, or active force (Psalms 83:18; Matthew 28:18; Genesis 1:2; Galatians 5:22, 23; 2 Peter 1:21).


Does Romans 8:27 say the holy spirit has a mind?


In Romans 8:26, 27, Paul is saying that when praying, God's people may not always know exactly what to pray for as they need to. But, God knows it is their desire for His will to be done, and also knows what it is they need. In the past, God has caused inspired prayers to be recorded in the Bible, expressing his will, or mind, for them. God accepts these prayers inspired by holy spirit found in his word as being what his servants should like to ask and pray for and, accordingly, he fulfills them. God knows the righthearted people as well as the meaning of the things that he caused his spirit to speak through the Bible writers. So, He knows what the “meaning (or mind) of the spirit is” when the spirit thus “pleads,” or intercedes, for them.


What does the Bible REALLY say about Jesus?



Con says that being the begotten son of God, Jesus has God's same nature, and is eternal. However, only the Father is said to be eternal in the Bible, not the Son. On the contrary, before Colossians 1:15, the words "the firstborn of" are in the Bible some 30 times. Each time that this expresion is applied to a living creature, the firstborn is part of the group: “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel, “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is of Pharaoh’s family, “the firstborn of beast” is, itself, an animal, etc. Con still does not answer my question: why give a different meaning to "firstborn" as used in Colossians 1:15?


How can wisdom precede the existence of all creation if it is said that it is created? Because, as Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 say, Jesus was the first, and only, direct creation of God (that is why he is the begotten son of God). All other things were created by God through Jesus.



The holy spirit is not subordinate to Jesus. Rather, being the active force of God, it glorifies the son by subjecting "all things under his feet."



Con said, "Jesus was also aware that he was subordinate to God in terms of authority"



So, God has more authority than the Son and, thus, he is not God.



Ephesians 1:3 and 1 Peter 1:3 - Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ


Back to you, Con!
















radz

Con

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A DIVINE PERSON ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE

Pro said:


It is true that the Bible personifies God's holy spirit, or active force, as it personifies wisdom, sin, and death.

Con's response:

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is not a personification of God's "active force." Rather, it is clear that the New Testament Scriptures as a whole presented the Holy Spirit as a "person."

The Holy Spirit loves ( Romans 15:30)
The Holy Spirit speaks (Acts 13:2)
The Holy Spirit knows God's thoughts (1 Corinthians 2:11).
The Holy Spirit teaches (John 14:26)
The Holy Spirit decides (1 Corinthians 12:11)

The Holy Spirit have these personal qualities because he has his own "mind" (Romans 8:27).An impersonal "active force" is not a person.IT does not have a mind! The Holy Spirit is a person.HE does have a mind as the Scripture plainly shows.

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." ( Romans 8:27 KJV).

Jesus himself was aware that the Holy Spirit was equally a person with Him (another Paraclete). ~ John 14:16 (1 John 2:1)

This is what the Bible REALLY say about the Holy Spirit.

Pro said:

The Bible, however, also makes references to the holy spirit which definitely do not fit a person, nor are they applied to the Father or the Son. For example, nowhere in the Bible do you read about people being filled with, baptized with, or anointed with the Father or the Son.

Con's response:

In the Bible, we read about people being filled with the Son:

He (Christ) who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things. Ephesians 4:10

On the Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit

In the entire Scriptures, blasphemy ,in and of itself, is always done to someone and not to something! How could an energy be blasphemed? The burden of proof is on Pro.

The Holy Spirit is identified as "God" in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit is identified as "God" in the Old Testament:

2 Samuel 23:2-3

The Spirit of the Lord spoke through me;
his word was on my tongue.
The God of Israel spoke,
the Rock of Israel said to me:
‘When one rules over people in righteousness,
when he rules in the fear of God,

The Holy Spirit is identified as "God" in the New Testament:

Acts 5:3 is very clear that it is the Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit who is identified in the text as "God." Verse 9 further proves that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the person of the Holy Spirit.

More on the Personality of the Holy Spirit

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

If "unholy or evil spirits" are persons, then the Holy Spirit is a person.

Pro said:

Hebrews 2:4 does not say that God merely gives holy spirit, but he distributes (mer-is-mos') it according to His will. If the holy spirit is a person, why is "He" distributed? And why isn't it said in the Bible that the Father and the Son are distributed as well according to the will of God? A person can be sent, like Jesus, but a person is not distributed.

Con's response:

Pro should not take texts that says the holy Spirit is "distributed to people" , " anointed to people" and "baptized with people" in the literal sense. That would be a flawed hermeneutics and hence, an eisegesis.

Are we to believe that God is a literal "heat, fuel and oxygen" because the Bible said that " Our God is a consuming fire" (Deu. 4:24, Heb. 12:29)? Is God a flame? Is not fire impersonal?

Are we to believe that Jesus is a literal "bright morning star"? Is Jesus a luminous sphere of plasma held together by its own gravity? Is not a star impersonal?

Revelation 22:16
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Does Matthew 28:19 prove the trinity?

Yes. Matthew 28:19 proves the Trinity.

The biblical text is clear that the three persons mentioned have the same name. They are on an
equal level. All of them equally shares in one name.The name of God is the "tetragrammaton" ( Exodus 3:14). The oneness of the Trinity in terms of their singular "name" shows that they are not three gods but one.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (not names) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The name of the Father IS the name of the Son and the Holy Spirit as well. That's what the verse is REALLY saying!

First century Judaism spoke Greek and read the Septuagint ( the Greek version of the Tanakh).

Deuteronomy 6:4 (literally, as says in Hebrew) = YHWH our Gods is one YHWH.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (literally, as says in Greek) = The Master our God is one Master.

The Old Testament text does not explicitly mention the number of persons. Rather, it merely and only spoke of the plurality of persons in the Godhead. Deuteronomy 6:4 agrees with Genesis 1:26-27.Such consistency remained even in the New Testament (Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3,John 1:1, Philippians 2:6 etc.).

Interestingly, in 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul was contrasting the one God and the false gods.The context of the said text identified Jesus, the Messiah, as the "one Master" ( the EIS KURIOS of the Shema).

The one-ness of the Father and the Son in John 10:30 is evident in the immediate context. It is the unity of power. The Father and the Son have the same power.The language of "my hand" points to the Hebraic symbolism of YHWH's inherent power ( Deuteronomy 32:39).

In Matthew 4:10, Jesus said that "only God is to be worshiped (PROSKUNEO)and served." He did not say to not worship him.His focus is on God.

In Hebrews 1:6, all angels should worship (PROSKUNEO) Jesus. In fact, in Revelation 5:13, both Jesus and his Father are receiving the same worship from all creation!

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE

Pro said:

Only the Father is said to be eternal in the Bible, not the Son.

Con's response:

God is "from everlasting" (eternal) based on Psalm 90:2.

Jesus Christ is "from everlasting" (eternal) based on Micah 5:2.

In both the Hebrew texts and the Septuagint Version, the eternality of the Son of God is meant.

Mime owlam – Hebrew [ transliterated]
Ex hemeron aionos –Greek [ transliterated]
Out from the days of eternity or from everlasting [English]

On the First-born

Colossians 1:15-16 clearly said that Jesus is the "first-born of all creation because in, by and for him all things were created."

Jesus is not part of "every creature" because he is the first begotten in, by and for whom all things came into existence.That's what the text is saying at face value.

To elaborate, the text means that means that Jesus is the instrumental cause of all creation and the reason why all creation exists.Clearly, he is not part of what he caused to exists.

The Greek word PROTOTOKOS (first born, the eldest) does not always mean "first in birth order" in the Bible.

God refers to David (the last-born son of Jesse) as "firstborn" king in Psalm 89:27, "the highest of the kings of the earth", so also is Jesus the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) in that Jesus has preeminence and first place in everything that exists.


Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 do not say that Jesus Christ is the "creation of God." It is merely a wishful thinking of Pro.

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is functionally subordinate to the Son:

John 16:7
7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

John 13:16
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

Pro said:


So, God has more authority than the Son and, thus, he is not God.

Con's response:

The Son himself voluntarily chose to temporarily give up the use of his attributes in order to accomplish his mission as the Messiah ( Philippians 2:6-8).

The Father and the Son have the same authority over all creation. They are both worshiped by all creation ( Revelation 5:13, 14:4, 22:3).

Pro's argument:

Ephesians 1:3 and 1 Peter 1:3 - Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

Pro's rebuttal:

Ephesians 1:3 and 17 as well as Hebrews 1:9 were all showing that Jesus had a God who was identified as his “Father.” The said biblical texts, when interpreted with the Scripture as a whole, show that Jesus was equal with God his own Father in terms of “ontology” (nature). ~ John 5:18, Philippians 2:6 It should be understood that in the biblical paradigm, “God” and “flesh” are two directly contrasted terms of reality.God is not flesh and vice versa. But John 1:1 and John 1:14 said that “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh.” This shows that what he was, he did retain and what he was not, he became.The Logos was fully God and at the incarnation, fully human.In him dwells all the fullness (not just some) of the Godhead bodily. ~ Colossians 2:9

Debate Round No. 3
Bible

Pro


That the holy spirit is personified in the Bible does not mean it is a person. Death is said to rule as a king in Romans 5:17, 21 and sin is said to seduce, kill, and work out covetousness in Matthew 11:19, Luke 7:35, and Romans 5:17, 21 correspondingly. Does this mean death and sin are persons as well?




Baptism in the name of the holy spirit does not prove it is a person. In the Bible, "name" can sometimes stand for power or authority (Deuteronomy 18:5, 19-22; Esther 8:10). It is similar to the expression, "in the name of the law," which does not mean the law is a person. A person baptized in the name of the holy spirit recognizes the power and role of the holy spirit in accomplishing Jehovah's will (Galatians 5:22, 23; 2 Peter 1:21).




The Bible does not call the holy spirit God. 2 Peter 1:21 tells us that the books of the Bible were, “at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.” What David was saying is that he spoke from Jehovah, the God of Israel, as he was moved by holy spirit.




The holy spirit does not have a mind. In Romans 8:26, 27, Paul is saying that when praying, God's people may not always know exactly what to pray for as they need to. But, God knows it is their desire for His will to be done, and also knows what it is they need. In the past, God has caused inspired prayers to be recorded in the Bible, expressing his will, or mind, for them. God accepts these prayers inspired by holy spirit found in his word as being what his servants should like to ask and pray for and, accordingly, he fulfills them. God knows the righthearted people as well as the meaning of the things that he caused his spirit to speak through the Bible writers. So, He knows what the “meaning (or mind) of the spirit is” when the spirit thus “pleads,” or intercedes, for them.




People are not said to be filled with the Son in the Bible. Ephesians 4:10 says that Jesus ascended to heaven so that “he might fill all things” which can also be translated as “that he might give fulness to all things” or “that he might bring all things to fulfillment.” Jesus was sent for a purpose, and he ascended so that “he might bring all things to fulfillment” by becoming king of the heavenly kingdom that we ask for in prayer and will soon be established on Earth (Daniel 2:44), fulfilling God's will of making the Earth a paradise where the righteous will live on forever (Psalms 37:29; Matthew 5:5). Neither Ephesians 4:10 nor any other Bible verse says that people are filled with the Son as they are said to be filled with holy spirit.




If the holy spirit is a person…




Why does the Bible say people are “filled” with holy spirit? Is it reasonable that a person would be “filled” with another person (Luke 1:41)?




Why does the Bible say people are “baptized” with holy spirit? John the Baptizer could hardly have been referring to the holy spirit as a person when he spoke of baptizing people with it (Matthew 3:11).




Why does the Bible say people are “anointed” with holy spirit and that it is “poured” out upon people? Again, here we see language that is inconsistent with the idea of the holy spirit being a person. Why doesn't the Bible say people are anointed with the Father or the Son? Why doesn't the Bible say the Father and Son are poured upon people as well (Acts 10:38, 44, 45)?




What the Bible teaches about the holy spirit is clear. The Bible refers to the holy spirit as God's “hands” or “fingers” (Psalm 8:3; 19:1; Luke 11:20). God has used his spirit, as a craftsman uses his hands and fingers in his work, to produce results like the following:




The universe (Psalm 33:6; Isaiah 66:1, 2).



The Bible (2 Peter 1:20, 21).



The miracles and zealous preaching of his ancient servants (Luke 4:18; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11).



The good qualities shown by people who obey him. (Galatians 5:22, 23).




Can a craftsman's hands and fingers function independent of his mind and body? Similarly, the holy spirit only functions as God directs it. It is not a person. The Bible further shows the holy spirit's impersonal nature by comparing it to water and associating it with things like faith and knowledge (Isaiah 44:3; Acts 6:5; 2 Corinthians 6:6).




Neither the Bible nor history say that Jesus' apostles and other early disciples believed that the holy spirit was a person. Here is a quote from The Encyclopaedia Brittanica: "The definition that the Holy Spirit was a distinct divine Person [...] came at the Council of Constantinople in ad 381." That's more than 250 years after the last apostle died. The burden of proof is on Con.




Con said: How could an energy be blasphemed? The burden of proof is on Pro.




Response of Pro: The Jewish religious leaders of the first century saw God's holy spirit at work in Jesus as he performed miracles that honored Jehovah. They, however, attributed this power to Satan the Devil, thus, sinfully blaspheming against the spirit. The holy spirit has God as its source. Those speaking against the holy spirit are, therefore, speaking against Jehovah. Those who oppose the operation of God's holy spirit have no forgiveness (Mark 3:20-29).




Con said: “Pro should not take texts that says the holy Spirit is 'distributed to people', 'anointed to people' and 'baptized with people' in the literal sense. That would be a flawed hermeneutics and hence, an eisegesis.




Response of Pro: Although the Bible sometimes compares God and Jesus to impersonal things, it does not give these impersonal qualities as it does with the holy spirit.




Con said: Jesus Christ is "from everlasting" (eternal) based on Micah 5:2.




Response of Pro: It is noteworthy that instead of “from everlasting,” other renderings include: “ancient days” and “days of old.” Viewed in the light of Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14, Micah 5:2 does not prove Jesus is eternal.




Con said: Jesus is not part of "every creature" because he is the first begotten in, by and for whom all things came into existence.




Response of Pro: Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God because he is unique, different from all others of God's sons being the only direct creation of his Father through whom all other things were created. This does not exclude Jesus from being part of the creation.




Con said: God refers to David (the last-born son of Jesse) as "firstborn" king in Psalm 89:27, "the highest of the kings of the earth", so also is Jesus the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) in that Jesus has preeminence and first place in everything that exists.




Response of Pro: If what Colossians 1:15 means is that Jesus has preeminence and first place in everything that exists, why aren't the Father and the “Holy Spirit” also said to be the first-born? This expression is only applied to the Son in the Bible. According to the customary meaning, it indicates that Jesus is the oldest in Jehovah's family of sons.




Con said: According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is functionally subordinate to the Son.




Response of Pro: If the “Holy Spirit” is subordinate to the Son, why is blasphemy against the spirit forgiven, but not blasphemy against the Son (Matthew 12:31, 32)? Does this not flatly contradict the trinity doctrine? If the “Holy Spirit” were a person and God, in some way, it would be greater than the Son. What Jesus said clearly shows that the Father, to whom the holy spirit belongs, is greater than Jesus.




Con said: The Father and the Son have the same authority over all creation. They are both worshiped by all creation (Revelation 5:13, 14:4, 22:3).




Response of Pro:If you read verse 6 of Revelation 22, you see that the slaves mentioned in verse 3 are the slaves of Jehovah, not of the lamb. Thus, they render sacred service to Jehovah, not Jesus. The Bible clearly shows that these two are different persons. Consider, for example, when Jesus said "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service." (Matthew 4:10). Here we learn at least two things. First, Satan was trying to get Jesus to worship someone other than Jehovah, something that would have been ridiculous if he was part of the same God. Secondly, Jesus made it clear there was only one person who should be worshiped when he said "him alone" rather than "us," which he would have said if he was part of a trinity. Consider also Psalms 110:1 “The utterance of Jehovah to my [David’s] Lord is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’” Jesus explained that he himself was David’s “Lord,” referred to in this psalm in Matthew 22:41-45. So, Jesus, rather than being Jehovah, is to whom Jehovah's words were directed.




Con said: John 1:1 and John 1:14 said that “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh.”




Response of Pro: The NWT translates John 1:1, 2 as: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God.” This is the rendering that harmonizes with the context. As you have said, John 1:14 says the Word became flesh. And after, verse 18 says “No one has ever seen God.” Furthermore, in John 17:3 Jesus said in prayer: “Father, [...] this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”




Conclusion




The holy spirit is clearly not a person. Unlike the Father and the Son, the Bible gives impersonal qualities to the holy spirit. The Son is not God either. How can he be almighty, and at the same time be subordinate to God? Con still does not explain why, in his heavenly vision, Stephen saw the glory of God and Jesus on God's right hand. If the glory of God in Acts 7:55 refers to the Father and the “Holy Spirit”, why is Jesus said to be on the right of God as if he was not part of the trinity? And if Acts 7:55 refers to the glory of the Father, why didn't Stephen mention seeing the “Holy Spirit,” the third person of the trinity?




God is only one.” Galatians 3:20.




I once again await Con's response.


radz

Con

Death and sin are not persons because they do not have a "mind." The Holy Spirit has a mind (Romans 8:27).

Evil spirits as well as the Holy Spirit were all persons (1 Timothy 4:1).

Pro said:

Baptism in the name of the holy spirit does not prove it is a person. In the Bible, "name" can sometimes stand for power or authority (Deuteronomy 18:5, 19-22; Esther 8:10).

Response of Con:

Pro's Pneumatology:

Holy Spirit = power

Name = power

Pro basically believes that baptism is done "in the power of power". Such tautological redundancy is creepy and nonsensical at best.

Furthermore, the inclusion of the Holy Spirit in baptism done in the singular name proves that he is a person because the Father and the Son are persons whose name he equally share.

Pro said:

The Bible does not call the holy spirit God.

The response of Con:

The Holy Spirit is identified as "God" in the Old Testament:

2 Samuel 23:2

The Spirit of the Lord spoke through me;
his word was on my tongue.
The God of Israel spoke,


The Holy Spirit is identified as "God" in the New Testament:

Acts 5:3 is very clear that it is the Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit who is identified in the text as "God." Verse 9 further proves that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the person of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:27 is explicit. The Holy Spirit has his own mind.It is written, "the mind of the Spirit." The immediate context shows that personal relationship of the Holy Spirit with the disciples in that he actively intercedes for the disciples ( Romans 8:26).

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." ( Romans 8:27 KJV).

The Bible does give the Father and the Son impersonal qualities as it does with the Holy Spirit.

"they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" Acts 2:4

"Be filled with the Spirit" Eph. 5:18

Acts 2:4 and Ephesians 5:18 are both clear that the disciples can be filled with the Holy Spirit.

"and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." Eph 3:19

Ephesians 3:19 is so clear that the disciples can be filled with God. Hence, we conclude that it is biblical that a person would be “filled” with another person.

John the Baptist baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11). Are we to believe that God is a literal "heat, fuel and oxygen" because the Bible said that " Our God is a consuming fire" (Deu. 4:24, Heb. 12:29)? Is God a flame? Is not fire impersonal?

Persons can be poured out:

Because He [Christ] poured out Himself to death" Isa 53:12
"I [Paul] am being poured out as a drink offering" Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
David was poured out Psalm 22:14

Pro said:

What the Bible teaches about the holy spirit is clear. The Bible refers to the holy spirit as God's “hands” or “fingers” (Psalm 8:3; 19:1; Luke 11:20). Can a craftsman's hands and fingers function independent of his mind and body?

Response of Con:

The Bible refers to the Son as "Wisdom" and "Power" (1 Cor 1:24). Can a person's mind be wise and have power?

Pro said:

The Bible further shows the holy spirit's impersonal nature by comparing it to water and associating it with things like faith and knowledge (Is 44:3; Acts 6:5; 2 Cor 6:6).

Response of Con:

God is associated with many impersonal things. In fact God is directly called "fire" i two places: "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29 and "For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." Deut. 4:24.

Jesus is associated with impersonal things too. Jesus directly calls himself: The Bread, The Door, The Lamb, The Life, The Light, The Rock, The Truth, The Vine, The Way, The Word, The Bread of Life ( John 1:1,14;6:35;8:12; 10:7,9;10:11,14;14:6,15:1,5).

In the entire Scriptures, blasphemy ,in and of itself, is always done to someone and not to something! (Neh 9:26;2 Sam 2:14;Jn 10:33;Rev 13:6, 16:11). The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed and hence, he is a person (Matthew 12:31,32;Luke 12:10, Mk 3:29)How could an energy (which is not a person) be blasphemed? The burden of proof is on Pro.

NASB
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

KJV
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

The Ancient Version ( Itala Vulgata) of the Koine Greek NT agrees with the reading of the KJV and NASB:

Douay-Rheims Bible ( From Latin Vulgate)
AND THOU, BETHLEHEM Ephrata, art a little one among the thousands of Juda: out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity.

Even a Jewish Bible agrees!

Michoh 5:2 Orthodox Jewish Bible

2 (5:1) But thou, Beit-lechem Ephratah, though thou be little among the Alphei Yehudah (Thousands of Yehudah), yet out of thee shall He [Moshiach] come forth unto Me [Hashem] that is to be Moshel Yisroel; whose goings forth (i.e. origins) have been mikedem, (from everlasting; see Chabakuk 1:12), mimei olam (from the days of eternity).

God did not give his created Son.Rather, he gave his begotten Son! ( John 3:16).This Son is equal with God in terms of nature (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6).

The early church agreed with the Bible teaching that the Son is "begotten not made." Look at my arguments on "creation ad intra" (Proverbs 8:25)and "creation ex nihilo" (Hebrews 11:3) in Round 2.

Pro said:

If what Colossians 1:15 means is that Jesus has preeminence and first place in everything that exists, why aren't the Father and the “Holy Spirit” also said to be the first-born?

The response of Con:

The Son was the "first-born" not the "first-created" according to Colossians 1:15.

The title PROTOTOKOS was never applied to the Father and the Holy Spirit because although these are preeminent due to being fully God, they are not "offspring."

On the other hand, the Son is "God only begotten" (Jn 1:18).He alone is the offspring begotten from the Father ( Jn 3:16).That's why the Father and the Son are equal and one and the same in life/nature ( Jn 5:18, 26, 10:28-30, Phil. 2:6,Heb 1:3).

Question of Pro:

Why is blasphemy against the spirit forgiven, but not blasphemy against the Son (Matthew 12:31, 32)?

Response of Con:

Blasphemy against the Son = can be forgiven

The reason is that the blood of Christ cleanses the believer from all sin and is being purified from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:7, 9)

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit = cannot be forgiven

The reason is that to call the work of God a work of the Devil is a sure sign of being a "reprobate" of the blasphemer ( 1 Corinthians 12:3;2 Corinthians 13:5).

Pro said:

If you read verse 6 of Revelation 22, you see that the slaves mentioned in verse 3 are the slaves of Jehovah, not of the lamb. Thus, they render sacred service to Jehovah, not Jesus.

Response of Con:

Rev 20:6: Slaves are the "priests" of God AND the Lamb.

Rev 21:2: The singular Temple is God AND the Lamb

Rev 22:3:The slaves render sacred service to God AND the Lamb. Slaves serve [Gk: LATRIA, Dn 7:13-14 LXX + Mt. 4:10 = Rev. 22:3] the God AND the Lamb [Rev. 1:1, 2:20] who sit on the singular throne.

Rev 22:4: (1) The slaves will see the face of God AND the Lamb [Rev. 1:7] , (2) The name of God AND the Lamb will be on their foreheads [Rev 3:12; 14:1].
Revelation 22:5 =The Lord God ( God AND the Lamb ~ Revelation 21:22-24) will give them light.

John 1:1 - The rendering of the NWT ( "a god") is simply out of context.According to the Tanakh, no creature was with God in the beginning ( Genesis 1:1).This shows that whoever was "in the beginning" cannot be a creature.It is recorded in John 1:1 that God was not alone, that he was with the Word.This person with whom God was in the beginning was "God" i.e. the same with him in terms of ontology ("nature")due to the fact that QEOS is anarthrous in the third clause of John 1:1

John 17:3 - In what sense is the Father the only true God? Is the Father true God in nature? (Jesus is also God in nature, Col 2:9), Is the Father the only true God in title? (Jesus is also true God in title, 1 Jn 5:20).Is the Father the only true God in authority? ( Yes! The immediate context supports this! John 17:2, the Father gave the Son authority).I advise Pro to review my argument on ontological equality and functional subordination in Round 2.

In Acts 7:55, all the three persons are present: " But Stephen, full of the HOLY SPIRIT, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of GOD, and JESUS standing at the right hand of God.Jesus , God in flesh ( Col. 2;9) , can stand at then right hand of God,his own Father (Jn. 5:18).

A couple of verse after, in Acts 7:59-60, Stephen PRAYED to Jesus.Thus, proving that Jesus is very God.

Pro said:

“God is only one.” Galatians 3:20.

Response of Pro:

Trinitarians 100% agree that "God is only one" ( Gal. 3:20).Trinitarians are monotheists.

SUMMARY

The Holy Spirit is clearly a "person" the same way the Father and the Son are (Matthew 28:19, Romans 8:27).Bible gives impersonal qualities to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit without them being impersonal (Heb 12:29, Rev 22:16). The Son is "equal" with God in "nature while at the same time, "subordinate" to God in "function." The Son is Almighty ( Mt. 28:18, Eph 1:21) and is very God himself ( Col. 2:9).

Thomas said, "My Lord and my God!" directly to Jesus (John 20:28).
Debate Round No. 4
Bible

Pro

We, as humans, are each an individual person. Being made in the image of God, here we have a reason to believe that God is an individual person as well.

God has given us logical minds to understand the creation and its creator. When we use our logical minds, the trinity seems illogical. How can Jesus be God and God's Son at the same time? How can he be fully human and fully God at the same time? How can three equal one? Obviously, Trinitarians have explanations for these things. Logically speaking, Con has the burden of proof to adequately prove the trinity adequately. In the absence of convincing arguments, the natural default doctrine is that God is one individual person. Bible verses Trinitarians try to use are easily refuted. Therefore, without good reasons to believe otherwise, it is logical to believe that the son and Father are separate beings just as it is logical to assume Moses had two arms unless there is valid evidence he had three.

I have been busy, so I didn't have time to make my argument much longer, but we can all participate in the debate now in the comments with more detail!
radz

Con

Pro's assertion that God is only one person because he created only one person in his image is entirely false.God created the first human(s) in his image. He did not merely created a singular individual person to reflect his image but rather, he created two individual persons: male AND female were created in God's singular image ( Genesis 1:26-27). These two individual persons have the same one name of "Adam" ( Genesis 5:2).In light of lack of explicitness of a Unitarian Deity in Scriptures, it is logical to assume that God is more than one person based on the biblical data we have, that God has one image and this image is reflected at more than one person.Instead of solely unitary, this clearly points to unity in plurality ( Genesis 1:26-27, 5:2).Hence,the natural default doctrine is that God is more than one person.

Genesis 1:26-27 (NASB)
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

The Trinity is so logically cogent just as it is scripturally cogent.

The Trinity is the teaching that God is one in nature while three in personhood.

The Trinity IS:

One = God
Three = persons

The Trinity is NOT:

One = God
Three = Gods

or

One = person
Three = Gods

To prove that the Trinity is a biblical teaching.We must demonstrate from the Bible that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are both "one God" with the Father.

Jesus Christ is God

Jesus Christ is eternal (Micah 5:2).He is omnipotent (Matthew 28:19, Ephesians 1:21,Philippians 2:9).He is very God ( Colossians 2:9).He is "God" in the strictest sense of the word ( John 1:1, 18, 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).He is "our great God" (Titus 2:13).He is specifically called "one Lord" or "one Jehovah" (Deuteronomy 6:4;1 Corinthians 8:6).He is one with the Father in nature (Matthew 28:19,John 5:18, 10:30).He receives lautriatic worship (Daniel 7:14 LXX;Revelation 5:13,14:4, 22:3) and receives prayers ( John 14:14;1 Corinthians 16:22).

The Holy Spirit is God

The Holy Spirit is a person. The Bible is explicit that the Holy Spirit has his own mind.

"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." ( Romans 8:27 KJV).

The Holy Spirit is identified as "God" in the Old Testament:

2 Samuel 23:2

The Spirit of the Lord spoke through me;
his word was on my tongue.
The God of Israel spoke,

The Holy Spirit is identified as "God" in the New Testament:

Acts 5:3 is very clear that it is the Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit who is identified in the text as "God." Verse 9 further proves that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the person of the Holy Spirit.


Christ was aware that there exists a “biblical trinity.” Jesus himself said that baptism should be done:

in the name ( NOT names) of
the Father
and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit” ~ Matthew 28:19

How can he be fully human and fully God at the same time?

Jesus can be fully human and fully God at the same time simply by choice and ability (power).Jesus chose to unite human nature to himself and being able to do so, it happened and it happend for a reason -- for the salvation of his people (Matthew 1:21).

The Apostle Paul put it this way:

Philippians 2:6-8 (NIV)



6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

God is not flesh and Flesh is not God (Numbers 23:19). But it is written, "the Word was God" (John 1:1) and "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14).

Again, it is written, " In Him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (not just some) of the Godhead bodily." ~ Colossians 2:9

How can Jesus be God and God's Son at the same time?

Jesus is God means Jesus is God by nature.That is why Jesus is called "God only begotten" (John 1:18).He who is begotten is of same nature with the one who begats.Man begets man (Matthew 1:2).God begets God (John 1:18).

Jesus is the Son of God means Jesus is the Son of God the Father.Jesus calling God his own Father making himself equal with God (John 5:18).

The point is that we should not conflate the meanings of the word "God"(Greek: THEOS). In the biblical paradigm, it is semantically having a range of meanings from false demonic deities (2 Corinthians 4:4) to human rulers (Psalm 82:6)and to the one true God himself (John 17:3, 1 John 5:20).


SUMMARY

Jesus is God ( by nature) because he is the only begotten Son of God (the Father).The Holy Spirit is a person ( Romans 8:27) and is God (2 Samuel 23:2, Acts 5:3).The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit equally share in the one name of God Most High (Matthew 28:19).The Trinitarian arguments for the Trinity are both logical and scriptural and that's why it is 100% cogent.







Debate Round No. 5
63 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Bible 2 years ago
Bible
@radz

Daniel 7:14 - "And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed".

This verse does not say that Jesus is worshipped like the Father Jehovah, as you claim.

Revelation 5:13,14:4, 22:3 - "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: 'To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.' These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb+ will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service."

The Greek word rendered "worship" is pro.sky.ne'o, which A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature says was also "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground." (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716)

This is the term used in many verses like Matthew 13:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus, and what the angels did toward Jesus in Hebrews 1:6. In Matthew 5:10, however, Jesus said, "You shall worship [pro.sky.ne'o] the Lord [Jehovah] your God and him only shall you serve." In harmony with that, we must understand that it is pro.sky.ne'o with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.
Posted by Bible 2 years ago
Bible
@radz

John 20:28 - "In answer Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!"

There is nothing wrong with referring to Jesus as "God" if this is what Thomas had in mind, which would be in harmony with Jesus' own quotation of the Psalms in which powerful men were addressed as "gods" (John 10:34, 35). Jesus is a god in the sense of being divine, but he is not the Father. Thomas had heard Jesus' prayer in which he addressed his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3). Jesus also said to Mary Magdalene, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:17). Also, remember why John wrote his Gospel: so that people "may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God," not that he is God (John 20:31). So, if you believe that Thomas' exclamation teaches the trinity, you should reread what Jesus himself said in John 20:17 and the apostle John's conclusion clearly stated in John 20:31.
Posted by Bible 2 years ago
Bible
@radz

John 1:1 - In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. In answer Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!"

John 1:1 contains two forms of the Greek noun the.os' (god). The first is preceded by ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article, and in this case the word the.on' refers to Almighty God. But, in the second, the.os' has no definite article.

The book of John was written in Koine (common Greek), which has specific rules concerning the use of the definite article. Here is a quote from the Bible scholar A. T. Robertson where he recognizes that when both subject and predicate have articles: "both are definite, treated as identical, one and the same, and interchangeable."

For example, Matthew 13:38 says, "The field [ho a.gros'] is the world [ho ko'smos]." The grammar allows us to understand that the world is also the field.

When the subject has a definite article and the predicate does not, like it happens in John 1:1, scholar James Allen Hewett says, "the subject and predicate are not the same, equal, identical, or anything of the sort."

For example, 1 John 1:5 says, "God is light." "God" is ho the.os' and therefore has a definite article. But phos for "light" does not. Hewett points out, "One can always [...] say of God He is characterized by light; one cannot always say of light that it is God."

Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: "In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean "a god." [...] Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as "a god" is from "God" in English."

Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on the American Standard Version said: "The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself."
Posted by Bible 2 years ago
Bible
@radz

Micah 5:2 - "And you, O Beth'le.hem Eph'ra.thah, The one too little to be among the thousands of Judah, From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel, Whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago."

I completely agree with this. After all, Jesus was in the beginning with God, and all OTHER things were made by Jehovah God, the Father, through Jesus the firstborn of all creation and only begotten Son, the first and only direct creation of God (Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14).

Matthew 28:19 - "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit"

This verse does not say Jesus is omnipotent, as you claim.

Ephesians 1:21 and Philippians 2:9 - "far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,"

Indeed, Jehovah the Father gave this authority to his Son Jesus. The verses also says Jesus was given the name "far above [...] every name named." This is true: Jesus' name in Hebrew means "Jehovah saves." Again, this verse does not say Jesus is omnipotent. How could he be omnipotent and at the same time subordinate to the Father who gave him the authority?
Posted by Bible 2 years ago
Bible
@radz

The Father and the Son are persons who, at times, are compared to impersonal things but by the context you can tell these are clear metaphors that are not giving the Father or the Son impersonal qualities, like it is done with the holy spirit which, MANY times, is referred to as "the power of the most high".
Posted by Bible 2 years ago
Bible
@radz

As you can see, the Bible says MANY times that the Father, Jehovah, is only one, and that there is no other God besides him: the Son is not God and the holy spirit is not God. The following are verses that show Jehovah is not Jesus, in case you want to argue that:

John 8:54 - "Jesus answered [the Jews]: "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.""

The Old Testament clearly identifies Jehovah as the God the Jews. Jesus here made it clear that Jehovah is his Father, and that they are distinct individuals.

Psalms 110:1 - "The utterance of Jehovah to my [David"s] Lord is: "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.""

In Matthew 22:41-45, Jesus explained that he is David's "Lord" in this Psalm. So, rather than being Jehovah, Jesus is the one to whom Jehovah's words were directed.
Posted by Bible 2 years ago
Bible
@radz

Where does the Bible say that God is only one person? Good question!

Deuteronomy 4:35, 39 - "You yourselves have been shown these things so you will know that JEHOVAH is the true God; THERE IS NO OTHER besides him. Know, therefore, on this day, and take it to heart that JEHOVAH is the true God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. THERE IS NO OTHER. "

Deuteronomy 32:39 - "See now that I [Jehovah], even I, am he, and THERE IS NO GOD WITH ME."

2 Samuel 7:22 - "That is why you are truly great, O Sovereign Lord JEHOVAH. There is NO ONE LIKE YOU, and there is NO GOD EXCEPT YOU; everything we have heard with our ears confirms this. "

1 Kings 8:60 - "so that all the peoples of the earth may know that JEHOVAH is the true God. There is NO OTHER!"

2 Kings 19:15 - "And Hez.e.ki'ah began to pray before JEHOVAH and say: "O JEHOVAH the God of Israel, sitting enthroned above the cherubs, YOU ALONE are the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth. You made the heavens and the earth."

Psalms 18:31 - "For who is a God besides JEHOVAH?"

Psalms 83:18 - "May people know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, YOU ALONE are the Most High over all the earth."

Isaiah 37:16, 20 - "O JEHOVAH of armies, the God of Israel, sitting enthroned above the cherubs, YOU ALONE are the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth. You made the heavens and the earth. But now, O JEHOVAH our God, save us out of his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that YOU ALONE are God, O JEHOVAH."

Joel 2:27 - "I am JEHOVAH your God"there is NO OTHER!"

John 17:3 - "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you [the Father], THE ONLY true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

1 Corinthians 8:6 - "there is actually to us one God, THE FATHER"

Ephesians 4:6 - "one God and FATHER of all, who is OVER ALL and through all and in all."
Posted by radz 2 years ago
radz
@Bible,

Jesus Christ is eternal (Micah 5:2).He is omnipotent (Matthew 28:19, Ephesians 1:21,Philippians 2:9).He is very God ( Colossians 2:9).He is "God" in the strictest sense of the word ( John 1:1, 18, 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).He is "our great God" (Titus 2:13).He is specifically called "one Lord" or "one Jehovah" (Deuteronomy 6:4;1 Corinthians 8:6).He is one with the Father in nature (Matthew 28:19,John 5:18, 10:30).He receives lautriatic worship (Daniel 7:14 LXX;Revelation 5:13,14:4, 22:3) and receives prayers ( John 14:14;1 Corinthians 16:22).
Posted by radz 2 years ago
radz
@Bible,

The Holy Spirit is clearly a "person" the same way the Father and the Son are (Matthew 28:19, Romans 8:27).Bible gives impersonal qualities to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit without them being impersonal (Heb 12:29, Rev 22:16).
Posted by radz 2 years ago
radz
@Bible,

Where does the Bible say that "God is only one person" ?
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