The Instigator
Moroni23
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
PreacherAndy18000
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

The Trinity

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,170 times Debate No: 12121
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

Moroni23

Con

I am interested in finding somebody to debate with me in regards to the trinity. I am against the idea of the Trinity and i would urge anybody who is pro to take on this debate.

Trinity: (noun) the union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.
PreacherAndy18000

Pro

Hi my name is Andy. For this debate I am pro I will be arguing for the doctrine of the trinity-there are three persons in one God. first what are cons arguments against the doctrine of the trinity??????
Debate Round No. 1
Moroni23

Con

Thanks Pro for accepting this debate, and I accept your definition of the Trinity.
Trinity (as stated by pro) - There are three persons in one God.

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I will begin this debate by explaining three strong arguments; the Trinity is illogical etymologically, physically, and scripturally. The KJV will be a primary source for this debate.

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1. Etymologically

Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning GOD created the heaven and the earth."
"God = 0430 'elohiym {el-o-heem'} in STRONGS Concordance.

Elohim = "God's" (Plural "more than one God") [1]

My argument in section one is simple, the very word GOD means there is more than one individual in the Godhead, it is plural. This is further reiterated in verse 26 (Genesis 1:26) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..." Two words are graphically apparent here. "US" and "OUR" are used. And this is not the only occasion this occurs.

In Eden we see this proclaimed: Genesis 3:22, "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:" [2]

At the tower of Babel we see this: Genesis 11:7, "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." [2]

We can see from all this, that there is most definitely more than one God.

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2. Physically

Matthew 3:16-17 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." [3]

We can see in this passage that there are three distinct members of the Godhead, and at the same time, they are in three different areas in time and space.

1. Jesus is on the earth itself.
2. The Holy Ghost in the sky in the form of a dove.
3. The Father in Heaven above both the earth, and the sky.

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3. Scripturally

Isaiah 6:3, "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Did you catch that? That's one "holy" for each person of the Godhead! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times. [4]

My personal favorite Acts 7:55-56- "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." [5]

Clearly we see that Stephen is being full of the Holy Ghost, while he is on earth, and he is looking up into the Heavens were he distinctly see's God, and on the right hand of God, he see's Jesus.

John 17:3 "Now this is life eternal, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom though hast sent." If Jesus Christ was God, why would God send himself? If the trinity was biblical, it should read ‘the only true God, and himself, whom though hast sent.'

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my father is the gardener." Distinctly two different beings.

I find it slightly amusing that the word ‘trinity' is found NOWHERE in the Bible itself, yet the word 'godhead' is found numerous times. :p

My final point will be based on common sense. One truth that exposes this Trinitarian error with great ease; If Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are ONE SINGLE GOD combined, then answer me this. Why is it the Father knows the date of the second coming, yet Jesus does not? It's truly that simple! Jesus said plainly in Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [6]

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[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] The Book of Genesis, KJV
[3] http://www.biblegateway.com...
[4] http://bible.cc...
[5] http://www.blueletterbible.org...
[6] http://www.biblegateway.com...

-=Other Sources=-

http://www.heaven.net.nz...
http://www.wcg.org...
http://www.remnantofgod.org...
PreacherAndy18000

Pro

Alright for the sake of clarity is your position there are three gods and not three persons in one god??????? Because it seems to be common to all of your arguments.

Physical YOU SAID 2. Physically

Matthew 3:16-17 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." [3]

We can see in this passage that there are three distinct members of the Godhead, and at the same time, they are in three different areas in time and space.

1. Jesus is on the earth itself.
2. The Holy Ghost in the sky in the form of a dove.
3. The Father in Heaven above both the earth, and the sky."

The general response to this is God is three and one in different senses. He is three in persons "Matthew 3:16-17 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." But one in essence (nature).

Scriptural

YOU SAID "Isaiah 6:3, "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Did you catch that? That's one "holy" for each person of the Godhead! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times. [4]

Did you catch that holy holy holy is the LORD not LORDS but LORD.

"I find it slightly amusing that the word ‘trinity' is found NOWHERE in the Bible itself, yet the word 'godhead' is found numerous times. :p"

True although what the doctrine teaches is implied from two other teachings found in the bible.
(1) There is one and only one God. Mark 12:29
(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son,
and the Holy Spirit. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

"My final point will be based on common sense. One truth that exposes this Trinitarian error with great ease; If Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are ONE SINGLE GOD combined, then answer me this. Why is it the Father knows the date of the second coming, yet Jesus does not? It's truly that simple! Jesus said plainly in Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [6]"

Christ did not know the time of the coming while on earth because he lowered himself to our level while he was on earth.

Sources
1. KJV
2. www.blueletterbible.org
3. Dr. Norman
Geisler's Systematic Theology Volume 2
Debate Round No. 2
Moroni23

Con

For the sake of clarity, it is my position that there are three members of the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The Trinitarian belief is they all somehow mish together into one God as stated by the exact definition Pro gave.

Trinity (as stated by Pro) - There are three persons in one God.

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It appears a game of Gish Gallop is afoot. [1] :p

"Physical YOU SAID 2. Physically"

Yes, yes I did say ‘Physically', and that is because it is precisely what I wanted to say. I made three strong points you have yet to refute, one PHYSICALLY, ETYMOLOGICALLY, and SCRIPTURALLY. Saying that the Trinity doesn't make sense physical doesn't make any sense in itself Pro, you say the Trinity doesn't make sense physically.

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In response to your repute of argument number two.

"The general response to this is God is three and one in different senses. He is three in persons."

Isn't it by your very definition that God consists of all three persons, because ‘the general response' to why Jesus' followers describe very vividly seeing three different beings, is because there is three Gods, or ‘He is three in persons'? That doesn't seem like a very logical response on your part being if there is three Gods then…. there is no Trinity.

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"Christ did not know the time of the coming while on earth because he lowered himself to our level while he was on earth."

Ok… so if Christ (A.K.A God, being Christ is God according to the Trinity) ‘lowered himself to our level while he was on earth', that would mean there was no God during this period? According to the Trinity, God is Jesus, and if Jesus lowered himself to the state of a human, then God lowered himself to the state of a human. So then if he was in the state of a human how was he able to complete so many majestic miracles? Who was he praying to at the garden of Yosemite? How did the universe stay intact for the space of thirty three years with absolutely no guidance from God, who according to Pro, was currently in the state of a Human. The universe was simply on cruise control I guess.

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Your ‘arguments'

1- There is one and only one God. Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

When first reading this verse, one might take it upon oneself to imply that the Lord our God is one Lord, being there is no other members of the Godhead. This is an incorrect assumption of this verse. Jesus the Christ is simply explaining that the Lord our God is one Lord, and he is in fact the Lord of all other Gods, the Father is the supreme member of the Godhead. However this verse is simply saying God is one Lord. It could continue to say that Jesus is another, the Holy Ghost is another, however it doesn't because this verse has nothing to do with the trinity, for Christ to bring that issue into this would be unfit. The verse, and the next two verses are the first and second greatest commandments of them all, that is the point Jesus is trying to get across.

If Jesus was that ‘one Lord', then why would he be referring to himself in the third person? If the Trinity was the correct doctrine, the verse should read "Hear, O Israel; the Lord Me is one Lord."

2-"There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son,
and the Holy Spirit. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7

Absolutely these three are one, however Pro, and the rest of Christianity that feels this means they are one the same person, are mistaken by the word one. I would like to cross reference this with ST John 17:20-23 "Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the Glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

First of all I would like to point out this is a prayer; he is obviously talking to somebody other than himself addressing him with words such as ‘thou, thee, us, and we". He uses phrases such as ‘thou hast sent me'.

Now to my actual point : ), if Pro is right, when John uses the words ‘three are one', it means that they are all the same being, we see in John 17:21 that we too are one with them ‘That they ALL may be one; as thou, Father, art in me…. Even as we are one…"… So that means that when we go to heaven we all mish up into a giant God! We will all be the Trinity! No. He explains that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ARE in fact all one, one in the same mindset, they have the same mission, they believe the same things, and his saints, those who follow him, will become one with them ‘even as they are one'. They will have the same mindset, they will know that God hast sent Jesus the Christ, and that God loves them (verse 23).

I feel I have made my point abnormally clear, and for all those who have taken the time to read this, I thank you. I have addressed every one of Pro's two arguments, and I have defended the few arguments of mine Pro rebutted, I couldn't defend all of them because Pro didn't repute all of them. : (. I urge the readers to VOTE CON. : ).

[1] http://www.debate.org...
[2] Bible, New and Old Testament, KJV
PreacherAndy18000

Pro

PreacherAndy18000 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Moroni23 4 years ago
Moroni23
Lol that was exactly my point, the word trinity is found nowhere, but the word Godhead is found all over, not only in Romans, suggesting the trinity was never a doctrine preached during Christs ministry, however the idea of a Godhead, or multiple Gods, was preached.
Posted by nickthengineer 4 years ago
nickthengineer
The word "Godhead" is in the Bible. Romans 1:20.
Posted by lastrequest691 4 years ago
lastrequest691
Godhead is a mystery.
Posted by nickthengineer 4 years ago
nickthengineer
Ok. I actually just finished a rather exhausting debate and fought back against some crazy vote bombing and am not really in the mood for a debate now that I think about it. Sorry. I wish I had more time to prepare.
Posted by Moroni23 4 years ago
Moroni23
That's exactly what I'm looking for :). The bible will be a key source for this debate, particularly the KJV.
Posted by nickthengineer 4 years ago
nickthengineer
I might accept but I'm a little fuzzy on your stance. Are you arguing that the Bible doesn't clearly teach it or that it's not possible? I have a fairly sound argument for what the Bible teaches on the Trinity, but I don't know if that's what you're looking for. Let me know.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Atheism 4 years ago
Atheism
Moroni23PreacherAndy18000Tied
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Total points awarded:70