The Instigator
Wolfman19
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
AlexanderOc
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The U.S. F-22 Raptor is superior to the Russian PAK-FA

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Wolfman19
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/31/2014 Category: Technology
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,405 times Debate No: 59802
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

Wolfman19

Pro

I will be arguing that the U.S. F-22 is superior to the new Russian Sukhoi PAK-FA.
AlexanderOc

Con

Seeing as no arguments were made by Pro, I'll just assume first round is acceptence.

Good luck Pro!
Debate Round No. 1
Wolfman19

Pro

Thank you for accepting my debate! Also, just to remind you, the PAK-FA is still in prototype stage so some aspects could possibly change in the future. I am basing my argument off of what we know now.


--Stealth-

In order for an aircraft to be stealthy, it must hide from enemy rader and avoid detection. In order for an aircraft to avoid detection, it must have parralel edges called "planform allignment" that would allow this. For example, if the trailing edges of a aircraft's main wing and its control surfaces have the same alignment, enemy radar waves are scattered and aren't returned to the place they were sent from.But because not every part of an aircraft can be in planform allignment, special coating in used to absorb radar waves that aren't scattered by the aircraft's shape. But enemies can also use infared missiles, which is why stealthy aircrafts must use a special nozzle design that scatters engine exhaust. A stealthy aircraft's surface must also be cool to avoid detection by infared missiles. The F-22 is specifically designed to do all of these jobs. The F-22 is equipped with an APG-77 low observable Active Electronically Steered Array Radar, which changes fequency 1,000x a second, which minimizes the chance of being detected by enemy passive radar emmiters. An aircraft can also be detected through their communication, but the F-22 uses a stealthy datalink that can only be used to communicate with other Raptors (since the data link is only capable of being used by Raptors). The PAK-FA does not compare to such stealth designs. Here is a quotation from Air Power Australia from 2010, "Where the PAK-FA falls well short of the F-22A and YF-23 is the shaping design of the lower fuselage and side fuselage, where the general configuration, wing/fuselage join angles, and inlet/engine nacelle join angles." If one would take a closer look, one would realize that PAK-FA's radar lacks advanced LPI,and is not stealthy in IR at all. Compared to the PAK-FA, the F-22 has better planform allignment (especially on the tailfins), and radar. The PAK-FA sacrifices some of its stealthy design by not hiding its engine blades inside the aircraft, and its RAM coatings are not on par with the F-22. As a result of this, the PAK-FA's cross section can't get less that .5 to .01 square meters, while the Raptor has a RCS of .0001m2. Here's a quote from Bill Sweetman from Air Power Australia when discussing the stealth between the two aircafts, " "The aircraft that flew today is a prototype - and it does not show visible features like a frameless canopy and panel alignment that you'd expect on a production aircraft. Other not-very-stealthy-looking features include the gaps around the inlet (compare the YF-23) and a spherical infrared search and track housing in front of the windshield. And, of course, the nozzles are round." Conclusion, the F-22 has better stealth.

-Low Probability of Being Intercepted
LBI is the ability of an aircraft's radar to remain undetected by enemy passive sensors. The APG-77 of the F-22 constantly changes frequency(about 1,000x a second), and only uses as much energy that needed to detect enemies. As a result, the chances of the F-22 being detected by passive senors in reduced. The PAK-FA, on the other hand, will lack such an advanced LPI mode, giving the F-22 a clear advantage in this area.

Radar
The Raptor, like I said before, has a low observable APG-77 Active Electronically Steered Array radar that has a range of 240km. The PAK-FA has a radar of of 400km (the radar hasn't been proven to do this yet), and will be equipped with a L-band radar on each wingtip and a X band mounted radar on its tail. However, the X-Band radar would be proven ineffective against a Raptor because X-band radars must be very large to give accurate detections of a target, meaning it is best used for ground troops (which is why they're L-Band radars on the wingtips to fix this problem). However, the L-Band radars aren't any better than the X-Band and share a similar problem.On such a small machine like a aircraft, the radars cannot operate to their full potential.They also give off high power emissions that can be detected by passive sensors.

Radar Warning Receivers and other Passive Detection systems



The F-22 is equipped with an ARL-94, which is the most advanced Radar Warning Reciever in existence, having a maximum detection range of 463km. It can cooperate with the APG-77 by deliveirng target information, which allows the radar to detect a target with a narrow beam that can later be taken out once in missile range. This increases the stealth of the f-22 because it doesn't give off any signals. Here's another quote from Bill Sweetman about the F-22's ARL-94, "High-priority emitters -- such as fighter aircraft at close range -- can be tracked in real time by the ALR-94. In this mode, called narrowband interleaved search and track (NBILST), the radar is used only to provide precise range and velocity data to set up a missile attack. If a hostile aircraft is injudicious in its use of radar, the ALR-94 may provide nearly all the information necessary to launch an AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile (AAM) and guide it to impact, making it virtually an anti-radiation AAM." The PAK-FA is going to be equipped with an updated derivative of the Khibiny M RWR of the Sukhoi Su-35. Not much is known on it, but it is said to be not on par with the ARL-94.




Missiles
Both fighter jets will carry their payloads internally to lower their chances of being detected by enemy aircraft. The F-22 is equipped with AIM-120D , and the PAK-FA is equipped with R-77 BVR missiles. When comparing the two, the AIM-120D has a range of 180km which is larger than the R-77's 53km. The AIM-120D matches the R-77 in jaming resistance, kenetic energy, but the R-77 is more maneuverable than the AIM-120D, capable of following enemy aircraft's turns. However, the AIM-120D is ought to kill an enemy quicker through kenetic energy. The BVR has a low probability of killing with a chance of only 13%! (http://www.ausairpower.net...) which is certainly very low.
The AIM-9X missiles on the F-22 is superior to the R-73WVR missiles found on the PAK-FA because of its superior off-boresight , as it is capable of enganging targets up to 90 degrees off-boresight, while the R-73 has 60 degree off-boresight capability. Remember, whoever gets first look in a dogfight usually wins and the F-22 already has superior radar, passive detective systems, radar warning recievers, and a stealtheir design.

Guns
The F-22 is equipped with a M61A2 Gattling gun, and the PAK-FA is expected to be equipped with a GSH-30-1. The 20mm rounds of the M61A2 outperforms the 30mm rounds of the GSH-30-1, due to the fact they are less heavy, giving them a muzzle velocity of 3,300ft/sec, which is a clear advantage over the muzzle velocity of the GSH-30-1 which is 2,888ft/sec. Because of this, the M61A2 is more designed for supersonic dogfights. Also, the single barrel GSH-30-1 overheats quicker than the multi barreled M61A2, giving the M61A2 a higher change of hitting. Once in combat, the PAK-FA would have trouble getting gun kills because it would have to fire in short bursts, and have to worry about overheating. In a dogfight, if the F-22 locks on with it's M61A2, it's almost certain to get a gun kill due to its superior rate of fire.

I would also like to point out that the PAK-FA has a slight maneuverability advantage over the F-22. However, the F-22 has a better thrust to weight ratio and would probably have a better performance at pitch axis.

I will now await my opponent's response

























AlexanderOc

Con

I will not be able to continue with this debate. My apologies to Pro for wasting his time.
Debate Round No. 2
Wolfman19

Pro

Hey, don't worry about it. Thanks for the debate, con!
AlexanderOc

Con

Concession extended
Debate Round No. 3
Wolfman19

Pro

Wolfman19 forfeited this round.
AlexanderOc

Con

Concession extended
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by AlexanderOc 2 years ago
AlexanderOc
It's impossible to debate the same person twice at the same time. So he couldn't have accepted anyway.
Posted by Wolfman19 2 years ago
Wolfman19
If you want to accept this, you can. But won't it be hard for you to juggle both of our debates?
Posted by TheRussian 2 years ago
TheRussian
Wolfman, would you mind if I accepted? Or would you rather argue someone else?
Posted by TheRussian 2 years ago
TheRussian
Wolfman, would you mind if I accepted? Or would you rather argue someone else?
Posted by TheRussian 2 years ago
TheRussian
I may have to argue this :P
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Wolfman19AlexanderOcTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
Wolfman19AlexanderOcTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession from Con.