The Instigator
dkerwi8993
Pro (for)
Winning
28 Points
The Contender
bigbass3000
Con (against)
Losing
9 Points

The US System of Presidential Primaries is contrary to democratic values

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/11/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,204 times Debate No: 3179
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (11)

 

dkerwi8993

Pro

(Note: Just want to run my pfd cases and argue 4 round debate)

Whether it's winner take all or proportional representation; whether its primaries or caucuses; whether it's the decision to have super delegates or not, something needs to change It is because I agree with Hady Amr of the Brookings institute that we stand in firm affirmation of the resolved "The US system of presidential primaries is contrary to democratic values"

To clarify we would like to offer the following definition from Webster's Dictionary of Contrary- Unfavorable or Adverse

We will look to three areas of analysis today

1)Disenfranchised Voters
2)Minorities not being respected
3)Closed Primaries and Voter affiliation

To Our first point

Because of primaries voters are getting disenfranchised through many different aspects: First to New Hampshire and Iowa as The University of Virginia Center for Governmental Studies reports The extraordinary attention paid to these states is further called into question when one considers their demographic composition "They are too homogeneous, They don't accurately represent the American populace. Indeed, the percentage of African Americans in Iowa and New Hampshire 2.1 and .7 respectively falls short of the national average of 12.3 percent The percentage of persons below poverty level also falls significantly short of the national average. As we can see there is no equitable representation in the early states which give some candidates momentum through the later states. This goes to show in a Study by Brown University which recorded early primary states have up to 20 times the influence of voters in later states in the selection of candidates. A New Hampshire Voter not only has more influence in determining the victor within the small population of his state he also gains a greater influence over the decisions of all remaining primaries. We can also look to Michigan in this situation who feels utterly disenfranchised as Kevin Wuzzardo Southern Interscholastic Press Association reports on January 15th 2008 that Many Democratic voters feel disenfranchised. The feeling is especially strong in Michigan where Barack Obama and John Edwards took their names off the ballot and where write-in votes won't be counted. A lot of African- Americans in Michigan are very upset about not having the chance to vote for Obama, the first black candidate to be a serious contender for President in History. We can see here that there is no equal Justice; you see less voter turnout and political efficacy. We can also look to super delegates which supposedly can't cause much a difference however this proves to be untrue as we can look to the National Public Radio in February 6th 2008. Democratic hopefuls Clinton and Obama emerged from Super Tuesday neck and neck, separated by less than 100 delegates by most counts. This suggests -if the race continues to be similarly tight- that the technically uncommitted super-delegates could impact the final outcome. This shows no justice and definitely no equality among voters and this also shows a lack of political efficacy.

To our second point
The Republican System of Winner-Take- all really hurts the minorities as we can look to R. Lawrence Butler. Assistant Professor of Political Science, Rowan University who states Close doesn't count—you must win states and congressional districts. This also means that delegate allocation in Republican primaries can be wildly disproportionate to the relative level of support among the candidates; someone who wins just 51 percent of the votes gets 100 percent of the delegates. A candidate who wins a number of early states can open up an enormous lead in the delegate count. This shows even if the minority votes for another candidate only the majority gets there candidate across again hurting Equality, and equitable representation. Because we are voting for delegates not directly the candidates the minority doesn't get there voice across in the actual nomination of the president.

To Our last point
In a closed primary, you must declare in advance that you are a registered member of the political partying whose primary you wish to vote. This becomes a major problem for Independent voters, or people who do not wish to identify themselves with a political party. It is assumed that after the hard times our country has gone through over the issue of voting, that we can now guarantee universal suffrage to those 18 or older, but closed primaries do not. If an independent wants to have the ability to vote in a closed primary, which, according to Professor James Q. Wilson of the University of California, about 40 states employ, they have to be a member of that party. If they are not, they cannot vote. In his book on American Government, Mr. Wilson states how America is moving towards a trend of decentralization of the political parties, that is, less people identifying themselves with a party. The American National Election Study from 1952 to 2000 found that overall, the amount of people identifying themselves as democrats dropped 22 %, republicans dropped 14%, while independents increased by 23%. The decision they have to make is this: 1) change from their independent identification and side with a party which infringes on personal liberties, or 2) lose their right to vote which thus everyone is not getting their voice heard.

Based on the three previous areas of analysis we look to an affirmative ballot
bigbass3000

Con

First I will post my case, then I will rebut your case, if I have time
Resolved: The US system of presidential primaries is contrary to democratic values.

Presidential Primaries-Of or relating to a president or presidency, A preliminary election in which the registered voters of a political party nominate candidates for office.

Contrary-Opposed, as in character or purpose

Democratic Values-The fundamental beliefs and constitutional principles outlined In the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, and other important writings such as U.S. Supreme Court rulings.

Overview: What is a presidential primary is a question to be answered. Both major political parties (Democratic and Republican) officially nominate their candidate for President at their respective national conventions, usually held during the summer before the election. Depending on state law and state party rules, when voters cast ballots for a candidate in a presidential primary, they may actually be voting to award delegates "bound" to vote for a candidate at the state or national convention, or they may simply be expressing an opinion that the state party is not bound to follow in selecting delegates to the national convention. In addition to delegates chosen during primaries and caucuses, state delegations to both the (Democratic and Republican) conventions also include "unpledged" delegates. For Republicans, these include top party officials. Democrats have a more expansive group of unpledged delegates called "super delegates", who are party leaders and elected officials.

Con.1 first amendment
On January 16, 2008 the United States Supreme Court ruled a political party has a first amendment right to have a election process that in their view will produce the best nominee for their party. Also they ruled it in favor of federalism as well, which is where a government, particularly are own, is run by a central government, with mini state governments. That is why so many primaries are so different in many ways. The system is not contrary because not every primary that is run is the same; they are all different, with different rules, which make them not contrary. What this means is that a political party has a right to have any primary system it wants. Primaries are not contrary to democratic values because are democratic values are exactly what the Supreme Court does for are nation. So Primaries are not contrary because a political party can have Super Delegates and that would be upholding democratic values.

Super Delegates are Democratic
Super delegates are democratic, because the people voted them in, and they make decisions. Also Super Delegates work for the people's interests, why because they are smarter than us, and were voted to look out for us. Take Jimmy Carter for instance, he has started Habitat for humanity and he is super Delegates. Also as far as someone coming up here and saying they will go against the people is not true. Why, because if they did, it would destroy the party. They have never gone against the people, because they realize, they are the ones who have the power. If they go against that power, they will lose their support and then where would the Democratic Party be. Even when they did decide the winner, they did not go against the people. Super delegates are democratic for one, according to the Supreme Court they are, two they are elected and three, they look for what is best for the people. Also Superdelegates are elected officials who work for the people, if they defy the people; they are going to out of a job. So it will never happen, they will never undermine the vote, unless they are crazy.
Federalism
Federalism is the idea that is in our constitution, that states should have the right to have different ways of running the country. The primaries are a big example of that, the reason, why there are so many different primaries, like the Cajun Primary in New Orleans and the Texas two steps is because States have powers. Federalism is a huge democratic value, because it is even in the name of our government a federal Republic. So Primaries promote states rights.
Con. 4 Equal opportunity for everyone
To spend four months criss-crossing the country meeting voters is a good test of a candidate's strengths and weaknesses, and it gives Americans lots of opportunities to decide which politician they like best. Also, a little-known candidate who does well in the early caucuses or primaries has a chance to attract financial support, and organize a strong campaign. Since the first primaries are smaller states, the way the process works is simple, go from small to big states. This gives every candidate a chance to show its side and gain momentum and voters getting to know them. Presidential primaries are the best for a representative democracy.
Con. 5 before primaries
Before primaries, presidential nominees, were picked by the convention, by themselves, meaning the people really, did not have a say on how will be the nominee. Primaries give the candidates a chance to battle it out for the seat, rather than just be nominated. This is the best way for everyone's voice to be heard, for the people. Primaries work because it gives the people a voice to be heard in the system. By the people having a voice, it really is giving a voice to who will be picked, thus it is an important part of democratic values.

Con.6 Front Loading is good
For all the fretting we heard this past year over the dangers of front-loading the process -- that it would give a leg up to the wealthier, well-known candidates, preventing the slow ascent of sleeper candidates -- well, so far that's just dead wrong. Mitt Romney's millions didn't win him the gold in either of the first few contests -- instead we saw a relative unknown with little funding win Iowa, and a veteran candidate whose political tombstone was all but written this past summer, take New Hampshire. Maybe we weren't giving enough credit to the voters -- who so far have rejected the perceived momentum of the winning candidate coming out of Iowa and now New Hampshire. Now it's looking like this race may go beyond Super Duper Tuesday, and we're even hearing whispers of the forgotten words, "brokered convention" -- something this country hasn't seen since the 1952! This means that at the end, there may not be a winner, which is good, because it proves even though front loading has critics, it is causing a close race on both sides, and doesn't allow the media to proclaim a front runner and thus is good for every candidate.

Okay now, to rebut my opponents points, he first brings up that Iowa is proportional to all the states, that true, but that is why they are states, the only way, he could win this point is if he were advocating a national primary day, but that would not be equal and besides Barack Obama did win Iowa, an all white state right, so it really doesn't matter. The reason why Michigans votes were pulled was because they warned them not to push their primary and they did, but besides, they are coming to a deal to redo those states with Obama on the ballot in Michigan and campaign, according to the New York Times on 03/07/08. His second point is about minorities, but a democracy is a majority rule, not minority and cross apply this with my first contention on the supreme court ruling. His third point is about closed primaries, but when you sign a party affiliation ballot, any ballot to vote, it warns you that by signing, you will not5 be able to vote in primaries, so the people who are voting signed it knowing full well, what they can and cannot do. You also make that decision by yourself and you still have liberty, because you can still not vote. Advocating the Aff would be advocating injustice. Here is the website http://www.state.nj.us...
Debate Round No. 1
dkerwi8993

Pro

dkerwi8993 forfeited this round.
bigbass3000

Con

I guess, he doesn't want to debate, me, so I will just wait, until, I get a just response on this matter.
Debate Round No. 2
dkerwi8993

Pro

dkerwi8993 forfeited this round.
bigbass3000

Con

I don't understand this guy. debate me, silent consent is golden, I have rebutted all his points already, so please vote for me, for these reasons, I have made before.
Debate Round No. 3
dkerwi8993

Pro

dkerwi8993 forfeited this round.
bigbass3000

Con

I am glad this is over, My opponent did not debate. Please vote on what I did, he has not given reason for his absence. Vote for me.
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Vi_Veri 8 years ago
Vi_Veri
How many more of this debate do we need?
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by dkerwi8993 8 years ago
dkerwi8993
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Creator 8 years ago
Creator
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by aodanu16 8 years ago
aodanu16
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by twinkiesunite 8 years ago
twinkiesunite
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by rnsweetswimn1 8 years ago
rnsweetswimn1
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by astrosfan 8 years ago
astrosfan
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by rnsweetheart 8 years ago
rnsweetheart
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Ylareina 8 years ago
Ylareina
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by blond_guy 8 years ago
blond_guy
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Oolon_Colluphid 8 years ago
Oolon_Colluphid
dkerwi8993bigbass3000Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30