The Instigator
1Historygenius
Pro (for)
Tied
28 Points
The Contender
Lily.Luo
Con (against)
Tied
28 Points

The US Won the Vietnam War

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 14 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/31/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 10,776 times Debate No: 31921
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
Votes (14)

 

1Historygenius

Pro

The Debate

Ever since I have taken the side that the United States actually won the Vietnam War rather than lose it, people on DDO have been attacking me because they say I am being entirely wrong. This is a dishonorable assault on my credibility. As the Master Historian of Debate.org, I hereby start this debate to clear everything up.

I will argue that the United States won the Vietnam War while it was there. My opponent must argue that the United States lost the Vietnam War.

Rules

Round 1 is for introduction.

No trolling or semantics.
Lily.Luo

Con

It's my very first time to have a debate here. Just hope I can have a relatively nice performance. I think the US actually lost the vietnam War!
Debate Round No. 1
1Historygenius

Pro

My Arguments

I. Paris Peace Accords

The US war in Vietnam ended in 1973 with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords. The accords gave the United States what it wanted. Since the US met all of its objectives there was no need to continue the Vietnam War. Why should we continue fighting a war that we already won? [1]

Read this:

"The reunification of Viet-Nam shall be carried out step by step through peaceful means on the basis of discussions and agreements between North and South Viet-Nam, without coercion or annexation by either party, and without foreign interference." [2]

The accords gave the United States the victory. The treaty also showed that now the United States had no need to interfere with Vietnam again. In 1975, North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam again, but South Vietnam was no longer an ally of the United States. South Vietnam was practically fighting a second war against the North Vietnamese. As explained here:

"Two years later the fourth Vietnam war began with a full scale North Vietnamese invasion of the south. The United States did not become involved in this conflict which meant that the United States could not have won or lost the fourth war. The war was fought exclusively between the north and south Vietnamese governments and could only have been won or lost by them." [3]

The United States fought in the third war in Vietnam. The first two wars were World War 2 and the revolution against France. This clearly proves that the United States won the war in the form of a glorious victory, it did not lose it.

II. Prevented the Domino Effect

Because of the US actions in Vietnam, other Asian nations did not turn communist. This is similar to what happened in the Korean War. We did not win in Korea, but our great actions there prevented other Asian nations like Japan from falling. The same could be said for Vietnam. As explained here:

"Remarkably, what was obvious to so many never happened. Today, these countries are capitalist, prosperous and, to some extent, democratic. Why? Because the United States, with enormous sacrifice, held the line for well over a decade in Vietnam, deflecting Soviet resources and allowing valuable time for these other countries to mature." [4]

What we did in Vietnam stopped the flow of communism in Asia, perhaps the entire world. This is a glorious victory for the United States. Furthermore, Soviet tyranny was stopped:

"In the fantasy world of the American Left, Vietnam was not worth fighting because the Cold War was only a fiction whipped up by the military— industrial complex. If only those 100 million dead souls could answer that lie. The American victory in the Cold War was dearly bought, but if the Soviet Union had not been stopped, its victims might now number ——— how many? 200 million? 300 million? An endless number, as the Soviet Empire went from victory to victory?
In truth, we should have parades celebrating the sacrifice of Americans and our Vietnamese allies in the Vietnam War. It was an agonizing battle. But it was thrust upon us, and there was no other way. Don't let the Left get away with lying about it." [5]

III. Bankrupted the Soviet Union

Before, during, and after the war, Vietnam relied increasingly on Soviet economic aid. The Soviets were spending a lot of money in Vietnam. This contributed to their fall. As said here:

"Following the conquest of South Vietnam in 1975, Hanoi sought to retain the equilibrium of its wartime relations with both China and the Soviet Union, but mounting tensions with Beijing, culminating in the loss of Chinese aid in 1978, compelled Hanoi to look increasingly to Moscow for economic and military assistance.

Friction was particularly evident in economic relations. The Soviets resented the enormous burden of their aid program to Vietnam and felt that much of it was wasted because of Vietnamese inefficiency." [6]

Because the Soviet Union put a lot of aid into Vietnam, Vietnam contributed to do the end of the Soviet Union.

IV. We Never Lost a Battle

How could we lose the Vietnam War when we never lost a battle and met all of our objectives. As said here:

"The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) [Westmoreland] This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA." [7]

In addition, we lost some 58,000 men and over 300,000 wounded in the Vietnam War. You want to know how much the communists lost? Over 1,000,000 troops along with over 600,000 wounded. We clearly won here. [7]

V. Vietnam Payed War Reparations

How did we lose the war when Vietnam payed us war reparations. Read this:

"Vietnam never received war reparations payments from the U.S. for the massive loss of life and destruction, yet an agreement reached in Paris in 1993 required Hanoi to recognize the debts of the defunct Saigon regime of General Thieu. This agreement is in many regards tantamount to obliging Vietnam to compensate Washington for the costs of war." [8]

As we can see here, Vietnam payed war reparations because they knew they lost the war.

Conclusion

I have proven that the United States won the war because of the Paris Peace Accords, its massive contribution to preventing the spread of communism, it bankrupted the Soviet Union, prevented massive deaths by the Soviet Union, won every battle in the war, killed over a million communists in the war, and forced Vietnam to pay war reparations.

Sources

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. http://en.wikisource.org...
3. "U.S. Won the Vietnam War by Jalexson, John Kerry." U.S. Won the Vietnam War by Jalexson, John Kerry. N.p., n.d. Web.
4. "Despite Vietnam Loss, U.S. Won the Long War in Asia." Washington Post. N.p., 24 Oct. 2012. Web.
5. Lewis, James. "How We Won the War in Vietnam." Archived-Articles. N.p., 4 May 2005. Web.
6. "Vietnam - The Soviet Union." Vietnam - The Soviet Union. N.p., n.d. Web.
7. "Statistics about the Vietnam War." Statistics about the Vietnam War. N.p., n.d. Web
8. Chossudovsky, Michel. "Who Won the Vietnam War?" Global Research. N.p., 26 Apr. 2005. Web.
Lily.Luo

Con

Rebuttals:

I. Paris Peace Accords
The US war in Vietnam ended in 1973 with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords. The accords gave the United States what it wanted. Since the US met all of its objectives there was no need to continue the Vietnam War. Why should we continue fighting a war that we already won?

One of its main objectives is to stop the flow of communism in Asia, but it certainly failed.

II. Prevented the Domino Effect
What we did in Vietnam stopped the flow of communism in Asia, perhaps the entire world. This is a glorious victory for the United States.

Again, it failed to achieve this objective. Vietnam is an absolutely communist country. Not to mention Asia and even the world. There are still a number of nations preserving communism.

III. Bankrupted the Soviet Union
Before, during, and after the war, Vietnam relied increasingly on Soviet economic aid. The Soviets were spending a lot of money in Vietnam. This contributed to their fall.

It's a simple fact of the ending of the cold war, not the Vietnam war. Irrelevant argument.

IV. We Never Lost a Battle
In addition, we lost some 58,000 men and over 300,000 wounded in the Vietnam War. You want to know how much the communists lost? Over 1,000,000 troops along with over 600,000 wounded. We clearly won here.

It's quite a pathetic truth that you measure the winner of the war through death. There's no direct connection between the result and the loss of lives.

V. Vietnam Payed War Reparations
How did we lose the war when Vietnam payed us war reparations.

The reason why Vietnam paid reparations is not because of the war itself.

My Arguments:

1.The Reunification of Vietnam
When North Vietnam and South Vietnam broke out a war, the US gradually got involved. As early as 1950 the US sent military advisors to South Vietnam. They supported the French and later the South Vietnamese government financially. However, North Vietnam eventually took over South Vietnam and therefore became a united nation. So the US failed the war and paved the way for the independence of a new country.

2.America's goal was not achieved
The US entered the war to reach an objective that was to stop communist expansion. But the truth now is that Vietnam is still under Communist rule. As a result, the US lost the war. Furthermore, their economy is booming and it now is being transformed into an industrial country, so they successfully survived the war and developed well as a socialist state. Just imagine, why is Vietnam still a socialist country if the US won the war?

3.Vietnam won the war with limited weaponry
As is known to all, American weaponry is much more advanced in wartime. However, The Viet Kong defeated the Americans with only a limited amount of guns and artillery. They used systems of underground tunnels and death traps to capture American soldiers. Over 50,000 brave American soldiers died and over 300,000 were injured. This is only a measure in American lives; it does not count the number of South Vietnamese lives - the people the US went in to help in order to preserve democracy. Not only the US lost the war, it also caused a big loss of life and money.

4.America disgraced humanitarianism in the war
The involvement of the US in the war was obviously against humanitarianism. The war led millions of people to death. It not only included the dead from South Vietnam and North Vietnam, but also a lot of American soldiers died in this brutal war. Those who had chances to flee away were expelled to leave their home. Is there anything more miserable than being homeless and losing family because of the war? Innocent people were deprived of a stable life which everyone else in the rest of the world has. Finally the US troop withdrew from Vietnam under the massive pressure of its own citizens with conscience.

5.Miserable life of American soldiers after the war
When the war ended soldiers not only came back crippled, but were spat at and called baby killers. It was difficult for them to find jobs and to adjust to civilian life again. It was a shock to them and that coupled with the horrors of what they had to endure caused an influx of a high suicide rate among the Vietnam vets. They not only came back without limbs and broken bodies, but broken minds. To this day they still struggle to survive and some are still seeking counseling to try to wipe out the horrors of this useless war. So the US lost the war from the standpoint of its own people!

Source: http://www.localhistories.org...
http://wiki.answers.com...
http://wiki.answers.com...
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com...
http://www.irinnews.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I just simply come to my conclusion that the US failed to win the Vietnam war.
(sorry, kind of messy due to my time limits.)
Debate Round No. 2
1Historygenius

Pro

My Arguments

I. Paris Peace Accords

"One of its main objectives is to stop the flow of communism in Asia, but it certainly failed."

This point would actually go under the domino effect argument, not the Paris Peace Accords. Because of this, my opponent has not refuted the fact that the Paris Peace Accords were a victory for the United States because we received everything we wanted.

II. Prevented the Domino Effect

"Again, it failed to achieve this objective. Vietnam is an absolutely communist country. Not to mention Asia and even the world. There are still a number of nations preserving communism."

The idea of the domino effect is that if one country falls, then every other country will fall the entire world will be communist. However, because of our actions of bravery and strength in Vietnam, countries were so impressed that the domino effect did not happen. Everyone knows that the world is not communist today and that is because of our actions in Vietnam. Yes, there are some communist nations, but the domino effect has not occured. [1]

Vietnam is not a communist country anymore. While it is economically repressed, there have been many measures in the country to turn over to a more free market capitalist nation. [4]

III. Bankrupted the Soviet Union

"It's a simple fact of the ending of the cold war, not the Vietnam war. Irrelevant argument."

The Vietnam War is part of the Cold War. This is both and strategic and logistic victory for us because the USSR was stuck sending supplies to a weak ally. Because of this, the Soviets could not focus on themselves and other, more productive allies, ultimately contributing to their demise. [2,3]

IV. We Never Lost a Battle

"It's quite a pathetic truth that you measure the winner of the war through death. There's no direct connection between the result and the loss of lives."

Incorrect, I cited a source proving that we won every battle thre. Numbers are a key factor in every war. That is why I put up casualties.

V. Vietnam Payed War Reparations

"The reason why Vietnam paid reparations is not because of the war itself."

Incorrect. The source clearly pointed out that Vietnam payed the US and other western countries in the war up to $140 million. As explained here:

"This arrangement was also decisive in the release of the loans pledged at the 1993 donor conference, thereby bringing Vietnam under the trusteeship of Japanese and Western creditors. Thus twenty years after the war, Vietnam had surrendered its economic sovereignty.

By fully recognizing the legitimacy of these debts, Hanoi had agreed to repay loans that had supported the U.S. war effort." [5]

As we can see here, this is a big victory for the United States.

My Refutations

My opponent has received several arguments that I will now counter.

I. The Reunification of Vietnam

Its important to remember that this took place after the United States left. We left in 1973 after the first Vietnam War. A second war in Vietnam broke out, but South Vietnam was no longer an ally, so we did not enter South Vietnam. How could we lose a war that we were not in? We signed the peace treaty and met our objectives and that was before the second war.

II. The War Goals

We did achieve our war goals, that is why we left. Furthermore, Vietnam is no longer communist. Massive reforms as early as the 1980s because communism failed. Vietnam is starting to economically liberalize. [4,6]

III. North Vietnam in the War

Like I said, tactically, the US won every battle and killed far more North Vietnamese than the North Vietnamese killed in US troops. This is a clear tactical victory for us. [2]

IV. Humanitarianism

People die in war. Civilian and troops casulaties happen. This has nothing to do with the debate.

V. American Soldiers After the War

Many soldiers suffer such casulaties from all wars. World War 1 is probably an even better example than Vietnam, but this does not mean we lost just because several soldiers suffered massive physical and mental issues after the war. Did we lose World War 1 too?

Conclusion

I have held all my arguments together and have succesfully refuted all of my opponent's. I, the Master Historian of DDO, strongly urge you to vote Pro!

Note: Due to the sensitivity, massive insults, and turmoil this has been caused in the DDO community toward me, I will never debate this subject again. Thank you.

Sources

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. http://en.wikipedia.org...
3. "Vietnam - The Soviet Union." Vietnam - The Soviet Union. N.p., n.d. Web.
4. http://www.heritage.org...
5. Chossudovsky, Michel. "Who Won the Vietnam War?" Global Research. N.p., 26 Apr. 2005. Web.
6. U.S. Won the Vietnam War by Jalexson, John Kerry." U.S. Won the Vietnam War by Jalexson, John Kerry. N.p., n.d. Web.
Lily.Luo

Con

I. Paris Peace Accords

Once the ceasefire is in effect, U.S. troops (along with other non-Vietnamese soldiers) would begin to withdraw, with withdrawal to be complete within sixty days. Simultaneously, U.S. prisoners of war would be released and allowed to return home. The parties to the agreement agreed to assist in repatriating the remains of the dead.

Is this your so-called victory? It only shows what the US get from the accords is just the release of prisoners of war, isn't it?

II.Prevented the Domino Effect

The idea of the domino effect is that if one country falls, then every other country will fall the entire world will be communist. However, because of our actions of bravery and strength in Vietnam, countries were so impressed that the domino effect did not happen. Everyone knows that the world is not communist today and that is because of our actions in Vietnam. Yes, there are some communist nations, but the domino effect has not occured.

Vietnam is not a communist country anymore. While it is economically repressed, there have been many measures in the country to turn over to a more free market capitalist nation. [4]

According to your logic, can we assume that the domino effect will only happen if the whole world is a communist? Impossible. The point here is that Vietnam insists its system of government without being affected by the US power.

It’s a model of the open market economy implemented by communist countries.

III. Bankrupted the Soviet Union

The Vietnam War is part of the Cold War. This is both and strategic and logistic victory for us because the USSR was stuck sending supplies to a weak ally. Because of this, the Soviets could not focus on themselves and other, more productive allies, ultimately contributing to their demise.

The Soviet Union did “go bankrupt” in 1991, but theVietnamwar ended in 1975. It did not immediately “go bankrupt” after the war. So there were many other factors which defeated it. We still cannot see the connection between the failure of the USSR and the Vietnam war. My opponent failed to further prove that the US won the war.

IV. We Never Lost a Battle

Incorrect, I cited a source proving that we won every battle thre. Numbers are a key factor in every war. That is why I put up casualties.

Still, the number of casualties can prove nothing. The result is the US withdrew its troop from the war, signaling their failure.

V. Vietnam Payed War Reparations

"The reason why Vietnam paid reparations is not because of the war itself."

Incorrect. The source clearly pointed out that Vietnam payed the US and other western countries in the war up to $140 million. As explained here:

"This arrangement was also decisive in the release of the loans pledged at the 1993 donor conference, thereby bringing Vietnam under the trusteeship of Japanese and Western creditors. Thus twenty years after the war, Vietnam had surrendered its economic sovereignty.

By fully recognizing the legitimacy of these debts, Hanoi had agreed to repay loans that had supported the U.S. war effort." [5]

As we can see here, this is a big victory for the United States.

Though Vietnam never received war reparations payments from the U.S. for the massive loss of life and destruction, it couldn’t deny the truth of their success. Furthermore, getting the war reparations was not the reason of involving the war for the US in the first place.

I. The Reunification of Vietnam

Its important to remember that this took place after the United States left. We left in 1973 after the first Vietnam War. A second war in Vietnam broke out, but South Vietnam was no longer an ally, so we did not enter South Vietnam. How could we lose a war that we were not in? We signed the peace treaty and met our objectives and that was before the second war.

If theUShad the capability to stop the first Vietnam War with victory, then there would not be the second Vietnam War even existing. Just because they failed the first time and left some problems to be solved, A second war broke out.

II. The War Goals

We did achieve our war goals, that is why we left. Furthermore, Vietnam is no longer communist. Massive reforms as early as the 1980s because communism failed. Vietnam is starting to economically liberalize. [4,6]

Remember the USwas forced to leave under serious pressure. Again, it’s the open market economy implemented by communist states, differing from capitalism.

III. North Vietnam in the War

Like I said, tactically, the US won every battle and killed far more North Vietnamese than the North Vietnamese killed in US troops. This is a clear tactical victory for us.

The key point of victory is not about the numbers of casualties, but the strategic systems. With systems of underground tunnels and death traps, they captured American soldiers.

IV. Humanitarianism

People die in war. Civilian and troops casualties happen. This has nothing to do with the debate.

The US lost the war morally from this stand point. How come it can be denied?

V. American Soldiers After the War

Many soldiers suffer such casualties from all wars. World War 1 is probably an even better example than Vietnam, but this does not mean we lost just because several soldiers suffered massive physical and mental issues after the war. Did we lose World War 1 too?

Is it comparable? Their nature is totally different. One is supported by a large population while the other is criticized by its own people. If it’s a glorious war, how come the soldiers are humiliated when arriving home and try to wipe out that period of memory?







Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by blimp456 1 year ago
blimp456
I know this is an old debate, but Con, seriously, you're argument was pretty damn stupid. Basically you were saying "if we won why did we withdraw?" We signed a peace treaty...the war was over... why would we stay?
Posted by 1Historygenius 2 years ago
1Historygenius
Damn, looking back I realize how stupid it was how I spelled "paid".
Posted by 1Historygenius 3 years ago
1Historygenius
@dragon, but Vietnam was no longer an ally of us in 1975. The domino effect only works when country after country falls to communism. In order for it to occur, there has to be a country that falls first (I called it the starting country) that creates the effect. Vietnam did not creat such an effect because many countries stood to defy communism after the impressive actions of the United States.
Posted by dragonb95 3 years ago
dragonb95
How can you say we have won a war when we literally exited by picking our men up on ladders from helicopters? When we suffered such enormous losses? When we brutally raped the landscape of Vietnam, destroying all the forests and trees, and weakening their infrastructure and environment so much that they still are trying to repair it today?
Posted by dragonb95 3 years ago
dragonb95
@1historygenius its hard to believe because Vietnam is communist. Our main objective was a failure.
Posted by 1Historygenius 3 years ago
1Historygenius
I don't think people know exactly what the domino effect is either. When a country falls, all the other countries are supposed to fall after it. When Vietnam fell, none did. How is that hard to understand?
Posted by 1Historygenius 3 years ago
1Historygenius
@dragonb95 No we didn't, we made the NVA sign the Paris Peace Accords and got what we wanted.
Posted by dragonb95 3 years ago
dragonb95
It seems to me that pro is arguing that some good cam out of the Vietnam. The fact is (after doing some more research) that we lost the war. We ran away with our tails between our legs. Pro is arguing that something good happened because of vietnam
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
At least lots of people voted! Pro likely would have won an argument for the US did not lose the Vietnam war.

I'll be sure to read future arguments from 1Historygenius, as his style of writing has flare.
Posted by 1Historygenius 3 years ago
1Historygenius
Damn. I hate ties and now I have one.
14 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Legitdebater 3 years ago
Legitdebater
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had many incorrect arguments such as Vietnam not being communist, and that it stopped communism for spreading. Both debaters used wikipedia too much even though it can be viable, there are other sources that are better. Although Con could have made better arguments, Con still had a good debate. Pro could have used better sources and had mediocre arguments. I am flustered that both debaters didn't mention the Fall of Saigon which is when the U.S removed all it's troops signaling a key defeat in "preventing communism." (Pointless War)
Vote Placed by dragonb95 3 years ago
dragonb95
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments
Vote Placed by LibertarianWithAVoice 3 years ago
LibertarianWithAVoice
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: I would like start out by saying Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Pro got the point because he used way more sources ( Excluding Wikipedia and wiki answers ) 3. "U.S. Won the Vietnam War by Jalexson, John Kerry." U.S. Won the Vietnam War by Jalexson, John Kerry. N.p., n.d. Web. 4. "Despite Vietnam Loss, U.S. Won the Long War in Asia." Washington Post. N.p., 24 Oct. 2012. Web. 5. Lewis, James. "How We Won the War in Vietnam." Archived-Articles. N.p., 4 May 2005. Web. 6. "Vietnam - The Soviet Union." Vietnam - The Soviet Union. N.p., n.d. Web. 7. "Statistics about the Vietnam War." Statistics about the Vietnam War. N.p., n.d. Web 8. Chossudovsky, Michel. "Who Won the Vietnam War?" Global Research. N.p., 26 Apr. 2005. Web. The arguments were good but too close to call. Pro had better sentence structure.
Vote Placed by thett3 3 years ago
thett3
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: comments
Vote Placed by Contra 3 years ago
Contra
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro fundamentally presented the stronger arguments in this debate. Pro also defended his arguments better. Pro would have gotten the credit for the arguments, but he also presented a few false ones (Vietnam is no longer Communist, etc.), while Pro also did not refute Con's point that soldiers were mistreated upon arrival back in the United States. Pro's case was also better organized, so he wins the point for Conduct.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 3 years ago
16kadams
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Con was unable to demonstrate that pros case was fundamentally flawed. Pro was able to argue we won the war in the overall region and that it brought the Russians to their knees (our ultimate goal). Although pro did not change, alter, or even make me think about changing my view, he definitely gave the better argument in this debate.
Vote Placed by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: A lot of the con's arguments were pretty irrelevant to the debate resolution, but con did show that America failed to stop the spread of communism by the war, that Vietnam did not play a part in bankrupting the Soviet Union, and that America failed to meet many of its other goals when they entered the Vietnam War in the first place. Arguments go to the con, and conduct goes to the con since pro is still deluding himself to be the 'master historian; of the website when its pretty clear that hes a complete idiot.
Vote Placed by 4saken 3 years ago
4saken
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's arguments are flawed but Con did a poor job countering them. Regarding Con's own arguments, most of them are irrelevant to the issue. Pro has more sources but one of them actually contradicts his own argument so I can't give him points. Pro's posts are much easier to read so I'll give him the S/G point.
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 3 years ago
Nur-Ab-Sal
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Partially countering tmar's insufficient RFD, partially voting for 1History on the basis that his original case was never adequately responded to. Not only were his posts easier to follow and better structured, through which I give him the S/G points, but most of Con's rebuttals were a few sentences that didn't even address his original point (cf. 'Vietnam didn't pay us reparations because of the war').
Vote Placed by tmar19652 3 years ago
tmar19652
1HistorygeniusLily.LuoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: The us did not complete its objective of preventing the domino effect, therefore it did not win the war.