The Instigator
ChosenWolff
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points
The Contender
Fight4Liberty
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The US should have a Elephant Polo league

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
ChosenWolff
Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 6/11/2014 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,216 times Debate No: 56461
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (3)

 

ChosenWolff

Pro

My opponent will go first. We will be debating the institution of a professional elephant polo league in America. BOP will be on my opponent to prove its a terrible idea.

Good luck!

Fight4Liberty

Con

To be fair to my opponent, I will recede from arguing this round. My decision to recede will allow us both to post two arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
ChosenWolff

Pro

I. Asian Elephants are very safe

I am going to jump the gun on this one, and assume your opposition isn't with a United States polo league, but a US Elephant polo league. Its important for me to argue any questions you might have regarding my BOP, which is why I asked you to go first.



As you can see, a Asian Elephant is only 1/3rd larger than a average sized man. The majority of people can pull themselves up on a elephant with ease. Its stubby legs make it very hard for it to step over you. I call them the midget elephants. They are the official elephant of the WEPA, or World Elephant Polo Association. A Asian Elephant has low slinking shoulders, which make it extremely easy for one to hold easy grip over the elephant.

Despite what many would think, the Asian Elephant is very easy to play a high stakes sports game with.



2. WEPA safety regulations

Elephant Polo is played with 4 players, or elephants, depending on the game. All elephants have 2 team members on them. One to ride the elephant, and the other to shoot the polo ball. The WEPA fully realizes all the safety concerns that come with playing with live Elephants, and its compiled a full list of regulations and safety guidelines.

You can view their in depth PDF here, which you can download from the side bar.

http://www.elephantpolo.com...

The point is, that the only one who can be held accountable for safety accidents are the players. The rules are very detailed, and a cautious and responcible player will expierience no physical injuries in his career. I would say its a hell of a lot healthier than football or boxing.




III. Niche markets in America

There is no doubt in my mind that Elephant Polo will find a nice niche in America. I mean, its being played in Iceland! Iceland people! Just like their are leagues in Switzerland and Thailand. Those populations are much smaller than ours. My opponent will have to seriously contend even a small sized niche league wouldn't make a reasonable profit in America.

I mean, who doesn't like to see plated Elephants charge into each other in a intense game of polo?



IV. Sufficient resources and funding

The United States has all the resources and money to get a league started. The Elephant population is very large, and the current Europe leagues are already very cheap. If I know anything about American culture, I know that there will be investors ready to pit angry elephants on a soccer field against each other.



We have about 250,000 elephants that can start creating us some money. How can we not get in on this offer? Like WPEA rules, all Elephants must be kept in a conserved enviorment. We have 1000's of zoos, parks, and enviormental centers that can give our elephants proper healthcare and treatment.

There is nothing hindering us from an elephant polo league.

http://www.ringling.com...

V. Better funding, conservation, and healthcare for American Elephants

As I already touched upon, we have plenty of facilities for proper treatment of our elephant league players (Elephants). This does not mean our Elephants are living in near sufficient standards. The African and Asian elephants are endangered, and slowly dying off.

Here is the WWF on the endangered status of Elephants....



This is very bad for the long term status of the eco-system. People often forget how serious this is, and I don't want to sound like a hippy, but this presents a larger threat than global warming or fracking. A WEPA league in America would cause 1000's of zoo sponsorships, grants, and triunes. It will lead to better healthcare and conditions for our zoo animals, and likely breeding programs.

My opponent should concede this debate. I see no reason why America can't open a small to moderate sized Elephant league within our nation. There is no need to draw on this debate any longer.


Fight4Liberty

Con

I accepted this debate "to prove its a terrible idea." I apologize to my opponent, I will have to forfeit the other as I will be at camp.

A plea on the Polo Elephants" behalf:

While a human may consent to the dangers and travel of such a game, an elephant was certainly not given the choice.

Sources:(http://mentalfloss.com...)
(http://motherboard.vice.com...)
An orphaned calf refuses to leave his mother"s side:
(http://www.peta.org...)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com...

Elephant Trauma
(All credit for the provision of this chart goes to my opponent)

According to my opponent, "We have about 250,000 elephants that can start creating us some money."

My opponent"s statement infers taking Elephants from the wild.
Elephants, along with humans, are incredibly attached to family members.

"Elephants show a wide range of behavioral and emotional patterns in their up-to-60-year lifespans. They grieve over the bodies of dead herd members, and can even recognize their own reflections in a mirror."

" Researchers from the University of Sussex found that elephants who were orphaned by an elephant cull in Kruger National Park are still socially maladjusted"..
elephants were exposed to trauma and dislocation and dissolution of their family unit, with behaviors "akin to the post-traumatic stress disorder "

Asian Elephants are an endangered species, and to think we should cause mental health problems and remove more from the wild is preposterous. History has shown time and time again human"s greed can completely dissipate a species.

A disaster awaiting: The Bull Hook and Polo Sticks

My opponent has cleared players are aware of the safety issues, but truly this is more about the elephant.

Bull hooks are designed for the purpose of plunging into an elephant"s flesh. These bull hooks are used to guide the elephant.
You can see some of the wounds inflicted in this video: https://www.youtube.com...

If a polo stick were to strike an elephant harshly, this could lead to a potential disruption of commands. The elephant would be under constant stress if it were previously trained with a bull hook.

Opponent Title: "Better funding, conservation, and healthcare for American Elephants"

My opponent presumed Elephant polo would bring more conservation and zoo efforts because "African and Asian elephants are endangered, and slowly dying off."

For "rescued" wild Elephants and Polo Elephants is a life in captivity any better?

Captive Elephant Life Span; 19 years
Wild Elephant Life Span; 56 years

"A WEPA league in America would cause 1000's of zoo sponsorships, grants, and triunes. It will lead to better healthcare and conditions for our zoo animals, and likely breeding programs"

Elephants have been exhibited to the public to as far back as Rome and to out modern day zoos.

I ask my opponent then, despite all an elephant"s popularity, why are they still endangered and kept in awful conditions?

I withdraw stating, the thought "A WEPA league in America would cause 1000's of zoo sponsorships, grants, and triunes. It will lead to better healthcare and conditions for our zoo animals, and likely breeding programs" is based off a theory and not at all a help to our fellow elephants.

The Physical Problems of Captivity:

Under this section I will discuss the inhumane aspects of WEPA"s plan as well as transportation issues.

I will restate my evidence:
Captive Elephant Life Span; 19 years
Wild Elephant Life Span; 56 years

My opponent has stated "Like WPEA rules, all Elephants must be kept in a conserved enviorment. We have 1000's of zoos, parks, and enviormental centers that can give our elephants proper healthcare and treatment."

Elephants, "travel as far as 30 miles per day, and are active for 18 hours per day. Zoos" lack of space creates health problems in elephants, such as muscular-skeletal ailments, arthritis, foot and joint diseases, reproductive problems, high infant mortality rates, and psychological distress (as is evidenced by repetitive swaying, head-bobbing, and pacing). Captivity-induced health problems are the leading cause of death of elephants in zoos"they are dying decades short of their expected life span."
To have a captive elephant, with painful health issues, urged to run around a ring with an average of 280 lbs on it"s back is inhumane.

Transportation
As stated above, Elephants travel around 30 miles per day, other sources have quoted even up to fifty! To have an Elephant with such great endurance locked in a transportation crate for an unknown number of days, and hours is inhumane.

WEPA RULES:

WEPA"s rules are discriminatory: Men may only use only their right hand. However, women may use two hands to hold the polo stick if they so wish
Debate Round No. 2
ChosenWolff

Pro

I. Opponents Contention on Captivity

I think my opponent misunderstood what I meant about captivity. We are not going out in the wild, capturing elephants, and domesticating them. The WEPA uses Elephants that are already living in wildlife, or conserved in WEPA standard zoos. To register a elephant for the WEPA, you need to have suitable and healthy living conditions for that animal. We are hosting elephants in America, and my oppoenent has made 50% of her arguments regarding the assumption that we can transport 250,000 elephants from America to the wildlife.

These elephants are here for a reason, and zoos are only allowed to host animals if they are also using them for beneficial purposed. Breeding, research, preservation. These are domesticated Elephants, and they can't be put back into the wildlife. It doesn't work like that. The WEPA defends Elephant polo, as a healthy source of exercise for Elephants.

They are fed and watered every quarter, and are being given the best standards of life possible. The WEPA was founder by Elephant lovers. Wherever my opponent got the idea that I advocated taking Elephants from the wild is beyond me. I am simply arguing the economic potential of using one's alreeady in our possesion.

II. Bull hook argument

This whole contention is irrelevant. WEPA trainers and riders are not allowed to use bull hooks. These elephants are naturally domesticated for human use, and unlike the African elephant, they are much more timid. Which is why they were rode as weapons in Asia, back in the ancient ages. To clear up my opponents confusion, the Elephants are simply rode with a saddle and straps.

This whole argument was silly, and my opponent obviously didn't read the rules and guidelines, I so gratefully provided.

III. Discriminatory Rules

Look, I'm not going to get in a political correctness or hyper feminist argument with my opponent. All sports have rules that differ between men and women, and considering the game is divided into leagues, rules don't apply across the board. For example, the European league and the East Asian League all have seperate rules and guidelines.

This argument is silly and nill, given my opponents lack of understanding on the word "league".

IV. Conclusion

It is clear by now. My opponent has admitted to conceding 75% of my points. The entire crux of her argument was based on her disapproval of animal captivity, which should be given little weight, due to her lack of research or focus on the topic at hand. Therefore, any counter premise instigated by my opponent, should be more than negated by now.

Cheers!

Fight4Liberty

Con

Vote pro!
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by ChosenWolff 2 years ago
ChosenWolff
IDT he realized that you conceded. Arguing votes hardly matters at this point.
Posted by Fight4Liberty 2 years ago
Fight4Liberty
CJKAllstar, It was sourced in my sources at the beginning. :)
Posted by ChosenWolff 2 years ago
ChosenWolff
Oh, I didn't even realize she conceded, lol
Posted by CJKAllstar 2 years ago
CJKAllstar
RFD Part Two:

And your next point, which could have been a very strong point, was instead an unsourced sentence which relied upon a conditional that ChosenWolff had already disproved.

The information about years in captivity was also very strong, but unsourced.

"I ask my opponent then, despite all an elephant"s popularity, why are they still endangered and kept in awful conditions?

I withdraw stating, the thought "A WEPA league in America would cause 1000's of zoo sponsorships, grants, and triunes. It will lead to better healthcare and conditions for our zoo animals, and likely breeding programs" is based off a theory and not at all a help to our fellow elephants."

You keep on talking about captivity, another searched said nothing on that point with Chosen's argument. Stop arguing for elephant captivity, in a debate about using them for sports! The issue here is about the danger in the sport; he never once talked about captivity and you are arguing something which is related, but still not the argument. Chosen identified this in his rebuttal.

Then more captivity...and more captivity...and more captivity...transportation is completely useless in a debate about sport...most of that wasn't yours anyway...the comment at the end was irrelevant.

Your arguments in general just weren't very good. You needed more sources, more detail and argue on more levels, but most importantly, argue the right topic. You argued every aspect of using elephants for polo league...except the using them for the polo league.

Chosen then refuted pretty well everything I'd said above. Overall, it was a clear victory.
Posted by CJKAllstar 2 years ago
CJKAllstar
RFD Part One:

So the crux of this debate is human/animal benefit vs. human/animal harm, as you would expect. And in short, this RFD is not an analysis, but why Con lost. Pro proved vital points, it is safe to do, it is already seen as safe, it will bring money and there is space for it. Although some facts to back up those points up would have made my decision on who won almost instantaneous, he had good arguments.

Then your round. Firstly, posting links to articles does not count as arguing, so I completely glanced over that. Then you stated,

"Elephants show a wide range of behavioral and emotional patterns in their up-to-60-year lifespans. They grieve over the bodies of dead herd members, and can even recognize their own reflections in a mirror."

" Researchers from the University of Sussex found that elephants who were orphaned by an elephant cull in Kruger National Park are still socially maladjusted"..
elephants were exposed to trauma and dislocation and dissolution of their family unit, with behaviors "akin to the post-traumatic stress disorder "

Asian Elephants are an endangered species, and to think we should cause mental health problems and remove more from the wild is preposterous. History has shown time and time again human"s greed can completely dissipate a species."

Irrelevant on the most part. For one, this isn't yours. Secondly, it isn't sourced. Thirdly, you cannot debate about what elephants 'can' do. Many elephants have been taken from captivity perfectly. Elephants have the potential to do all of this, the same way everything has the potential to go wrong. You also didn't specify what this actually means, but rather inferred that it is intrinsically obvious. That is never the case in the debate, so I couldn't award you much there.

Your next argument about bull hooks confused me. So I alt-tabbed, and typed in "bull hooks." There was no reference of it in his argument. He never specified this at all, therefore it holds no place
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
ChosenWolffFight4Liberty
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Concession
Vote Placed by Themba 2 years ago
Themba
ChosenWolffFight4Liberty
Who won the debate:--
Reasons for voting decision: I've read it over and over again. The problem is that Con did not argue fully in the supposed rounds and either concede or made a mistake by saying vote pro in the last round. I am too biased for animals, I've watched how animals fought against poachers. Moreover, I've watched as whales fought against its oppressors. This thought was too prevalent as I evaluate the debate. I have to give this a tie due to my apparent bias. Pro was quite funny though and Con is spot on, well.... based on my bias that is. Had I scored this, it would have been along the line "You mean, who did I agree with?". Nullifying vote.
Vote Placed by CJKAllstar 2 years ago
CJKAllstar
ChosenWolffFight4Liberty
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.